Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[Davidpt]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I mainly want to focus on this portion---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

A) a time before the millennium begins

B) a time during the millennium

C) a time after the millennium ends

During which of these, A), B) and C), can we assume they are martyred because they did none of these things at the time?

Does it make sense they can be martyred during A) for refusing to do this? Yes.


What about during C)? No.

That leaves B). What about during B) then? No. And here are some reasons why.

In order to be martyred for the reasons they are, it involves everything in Revelation 13 having been fulfilled. Except how could anything in Revelation 13 involve the millennium when both Premil and Amil have satan in the pit during the millennium, and that Amil also has the beast in the pit during the millennium?

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Does this sound like the beast is still in the pit at this point? Until the beast rises up out of the sea, where is it logically located in the meantime if not in the pit? And why can't 'sea' here simply be code for the bottomless pit? Compare Revelation 13:1 with Revelation 17:3, 8.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up (anabaino) out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns , and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy


Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend (anabaino) out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



In my opinion, the 10 crowns upon the 10 horns that are all on the head that was wounded and is healed, can be explained per the following. After all, do not crowns and kings go together.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Based on all of the above, and what else can be added to the OP that hasn't been added yet, how is it reasonable that Amil can be a valid view? Revelation, plus passages elsewhere outside of Revelation, reveal that it is the 42 month reign of the beast that precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, in order for Amil to be a valid position, the 42 month reign of the beast must occur during satan's little season. But how can it when Revelation 20:4 already reveals that the 42 month reign of thebeast precede satan's little season?

 

[claninja]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I mainly want to focus on this portion---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

A) a time before the millennium begins

B) a time during the millennium

C) a time after the millennium ends

During which of these, A), B) and C), can we assume they are martyred because they did none of these things at the time?

Does it make sense they can be martyred during A) for refusing to do this? Yes.


What about during C)? No.

That leaves B). What about during B) then? No. And here are some reasons why.

In order to be martyred for the reasons they are, it involves everything in Revelation 13 having been fulfilled. Except how could anything in Revelation 13 involve the millennium when both Premil and Amil have satan in the pit during the millennium, and that Amil also has the beast in the pit during the millennium?

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Does this sound like the beast is still in the pit at this point? Until the beast rises up out of the sea, where is it logically located in the meantime if not in the pit? And why can't 'sea' here simply be code for the bottomless pit? Compare Revelation 13:1 with Revelation 17:3, 8.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up (anabaino) out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns , and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy


Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend (anabaino) out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



In my opinion, the 10 crowns upon the 10 horns that are all on the head that was wounded and is healed, can be explained per the following. After all, do not crowns and kings go together.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Based on all of the above, and what else can be added to the OP that hasn't been added yet, how is it reasonable that Amil can be a valid view? Revelation, plus passages elsewhere outside of Revelation, reveal that it is the 42 month reign of the beast that precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, in order for Amil to be a valid position, the 42 month reign of the beast must occur during satan's little season. But how can it when Revelation 20:4 already reveals that the 42 month reign of thebeast precede satan's little season?

It seems to me that the vision of revelation 20 happens sequentially after 19 because of revelation 20:10

• revelation 19:20And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presencee had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
• and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[quietthinker]

Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.​

or, is it better said, let me tell you about my ideas of Revelation 20:4 yet again?

 

[Davidpt]

Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.​

or, is it better said, let me tell you about my ideas of Revelation 20:4 yet again?

Whatever.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.​

or, is it better said, let me tell you about my ideas of Revelation 20:4 yet again?

Your "ideas"? No, we need to get the interpretation from God. All of it.

Gen 40:8
(8) And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

Through searching out God's Word. The mind of Christ is the only true mind of wisdom in interpretation, judgment and understanding. Do not interpretations belong to God? Indeed they do. Seek not worldly, natural, carnal man authored interpretations, seek the Spiritual in the mind and wisdom that is Christ. Worship Him in Spirit and truth, not in stones, bloodlines, houses, nations, meats and drinks.

 

[grafted branch]

Based on all of the above, and what else can be added to the OP that hasn't been added yet, how is it reasonable that Amil can be a valid view?

Well, I’ll throw something out there that I’ve been thinking about for some time.



John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.



Some commentaries say Jesus meant he almost finished all the earthly work, as this is just prior to the cross, and the cross is anticipated (Lamb slain from the foundation of the world). Other commentaries say all of Jesus’s earthly work was done and vs 5 is including the cross. What I haven’t found is any commentaries saying anything about any future work on the earth after the cross, like a future earthly millennium.

I’m not trying to debate you on this but I’m just wondering how Premil would explain this. Would you consider the millennium as not being earthly work for Jesus?

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


I mainly want to focus on this portion---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

A) a time before the millennium begins

B) a time during the millennium

C) a time after the millennium ends

During which of these, A), B) and C), can we assume they are martyred because they did none of these things at the time?

Does it make sense they can be martyred during A) for refusing to do this? Yes.


What about during C)? No.

That leaves B). What about during B) then? No. And here are some reasons why.

In order to be martyred for the reasons they are, it involves everything in Revelation 13 having been fulfilled. Except how could anything in Revelation 13 involve the millennium when both Premil and Amil have satan in the pit during the millennium, and that Amil also has the beast in the pit during the millennium?

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Does this sound like the beast is still in the pit at this point? Until the beast rises up out of the sea, where is it logically located in the meantime if not in the pit? And why can't 'sea' here simply be code for the bottomless pit? Compare Revelation 13:1 with Revelation 17:3, 8.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up (anabaino) out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns , and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy


Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend (anabaino) out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



In my opinion, the 10 crowns upon the 10 horns that are all on the head that was wounded and is healed, can be explained per the following. After all, do not crowns and kings go together.

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Based on all of the above, and what else can be added to the OP that hasn't been added yet, how is it reasonable that Amil can be a valid view? Revelation, plus passages elsewhere outside of Revelation, reveal that it is the 42 month reign of the beast that precede the 2nd coming. Therefore, in order for Amil to be a valid position, the 42 month reign of the beast must occur during satan's little season. But how can it when Revelation 20:4 already reveals that the 42 month reign of thebeast precede satan's little season?

No such thing as a 1,000 year millennium on this earth as you've been shown "Several Times"

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

 

[ewq1938]

Well, I’ll throw something out there that I’ve been thinking about for some time.



John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.



Some commentaries say Jesus meant he almost finished all the earthly work, as this is just prior to the cross, and the cross is anticipated (Lamb slain from the foundation of the world). Other commentaries say all of Jesus’s earthly work was done and vs 5 is including the cross. What I haven’t found is any commentaries saying anything about any future work on the earth after the cross, like a future earthly millennium.

I’m not trying to debate you on this but I’m just wondering how Premil would explain this. Would you consider the millennium as not being earthly work for Jesus?

A boss assigns work to someone on a Thursday. When done that employee can say they finished all the work given them. That does not mean they won't have more work on Friday.

 

[Davy]

No such thing as a 1,000 year millennium on this earth as you've been shown "Several Times"

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

That of course is opinion only, per men's Amillennial tradition which the 1st century Church fathers did not have. Nor does it align with The Biblical view to include the Old Testament prophets, and New Testament Scripture.

 

[Davy]

Some commentaries say Jesus meant he almost finished all the earthly work, as this is just prior to the cross, and the cross is anticipated (Lamb slain from the foundation of the world). Other commentaries say all of Jesus’s earthly work was done and vs 5 is including the cross. What I haven’t found is any commentaries saying anything about any future work on the earth after the cross, like a future earthly millennium.

I’m not trying to debate you on this but I’m just wondering how Premil would explain this. Would you consider the millennium as not being earthly work for Jesus?

Try studying the Zechariah 14 Chapter which is about the day of Lord Jesus' future 2nd coming, with all His saints to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem to begin His reign over the nations, and you'll learn that The Bible does... speak of Christ's continued work ON EARTH in the future at His future 2nd coming.

There's plenty of info on that future reign in the Psalms, and the OT prophets too, pointing to the "thousand years" period of Revelation 20 will be a literal period of Christ's future reign starting on the day of His future return. The difference is the wording in The Old Testament prophets, they just don't say the term "thousand" when referring to that future reign by Christ and His elect, on earth.

Therefore, your words make it kind of obvious that those men you listen to keep you only in 'certain' Bible Scriptures when they attempt to prove their false Amill theories.

 

[grafted branch]

Try studying the Zechariah 14 Chapter which is about the day of Lord Jesus' future 2nd coming, with all His saints to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem to begin His reign over the nations, and you'll learn that The Bible does... speak of Christ's continued work ON EARTH in the future at His future 2nd coming.

There's plenty of info on that future reign in the Psalms, and the OT prophets too, pointing to the "thousand years" period of Revelation 20 will be a literal period of Christ's future reign starting on the day of His future return. The difference is the wording in The Old Testament prophets, they just don't say the term "thousand" when referring to that future reign by Christ and His elect, on earth.

Therefore, your words make it kind of obvious that those men you listen to keep you only in 'certain' Bible Scriptures when they attempt to prove their false Amill theories.

I agree with you that the OT talks about the millennium without using the term “thousand”. If we agree Jesus was given that work to do, why did He say “I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do” in John 17:4? Jesus said that way before the Premil millennium.

 

[WPM]

That of course is opinion only, per men's Amillennial tradition which the 1st century Church fathers did not have.

You have been challenged many times to prove this, but you cannot. That is because it is untrue. You have zero support!

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I agree as you know that Revelation 20:4 cannot precede the commencement of the millennium, and the commencement of the millennium therefore cannot precede the ascending of the beast from the abyss.

But as Chat GPT and all these threads about this has taught me, input determines output.

Amillennial input produces Amillennial output.
Premillennial input produces Premillennial output.
Postmillennial input produces Postmillennial output.

THE BIBLE'S INPUT: THE FIRST AND LAST THREE CHAPTERS IN THE BIBLE

Open (first three chapters): Beginning of time: God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31).
Close (last three chapters): Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

Open: Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31).
Close: Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27).

Open: Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17).
Close: Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

Open: Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28).
Close: The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 20:4 - also see Rev 3:21).

Open (first three chapters):

(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve, beginning with the words "You will not surely die" (Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

(b) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(c) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

In-between the opening chapters and the closing chapters:

--- "I am the Resurrection [anastasis]
and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25 - Jesus) ---​

Close (last three chapters):

1. Revelation 20:4, 5b & 6:
"Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand.

They were alive [zao] and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

-- but the rest of the dead did not live again [anazao] until the thousand years were finished -- *​

* 1. The above words are not found in the Bible’s oldest Greek manuscript of the Revelation, the Codex Sinaiticus. Nor are they found in the oldest Aramaic manuscript, the Khabouris Codex.

2. The words are listed as spurious in Tischendorf "List of spurious texts".

3. The words appear to contradict the scriptures that talk about a day when the dead are raised:

=======================================​

"God has set A DAY on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead." (Acts 17:31).​

=======================================​

-- This is the first resurrection [anastasis]. Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

2. Satan's deception of the nations (Gog & Magog) (The first deception began with the words, "You will not surely die"):

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).*

* Revelation 19:20 (previous chapter, not part of the last three chapters in the Bible) tells us that the beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive [zao] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. The concept of being damned while alive [zao] is therefore not extra-biblical or alien to scripture.

The New Testament makes a clear distinction between:-

* Living | being alive [zao]; and

* Life [zoe] (life itself, the source of being alive) of which the only source, is God.

Matthew 10:28
"Fear not them which kill the body [soma], but are not able to kill the soul [psuche]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [psuche] and body [soma] in gehennah [G1067 geenna]."

The New Testament uses the word gehennah every time Jesus talks about the everlasting destruction of body and soul. Gehennah and the lake of fire burning with brimstone both represent an everlasting destruction of body and soul.

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages."

Remember: Revelation 19:20 (previous chapter, not part of the last three chapters in the Bible) tells us that the beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive [zao] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Disclaimer: Not "my input" but the Bible's input - I just summarized the first and last three chapters of the Bible.

 

[quietthinker]

I agree with you that the OT talks about the millennium without using the term “thousand”. If we agree Jesus was given that work to do, why did He say “I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do” in John 17:4? Jesus said that way before the Premil millennium.

What work do you think he finished?

 

[grafted branch]

What work do you think he finished?

I would say the work that was finished had to do with the work that God gave Him to do. Jesus was obviously on earth after He rose until He ascended in Acts 1:9 but I’m not sure He was doing work during that time that was given to Him by God to do.

What do you think? Is there any more work on the earth that God gave Jesus to do that He hasn’t completed yet?

 

[quietthinker]

I would say the work that was finished had to do with the work that God gave Him to do. Jesus was obviously on earth after He rose until He ascended in Acts 1:9 but I’m not sure He was doing work during that time that was given to Him by God to do.

What do you think? Is there any more work on the earth that God gave Jesus to do that He hasn’t completed yet?

Firstly, your answer to a specific question is non specific. It tells me of not knowing at best and confusion at worst.
Secondly, what do I think? Jesus has finished the work given him to do.....and what was that? To reveal the character of God in its fulness.

 

[grafted branch]

Firstly, your answer to a specific question is non specific. It tells me of not knowing at best and confusion at worst.
Secondly, what do I think? Jesus has finished the work given him to do.....and what was that? To reveal the character of God in its fulness.

Ok, do you have a specific list of all the work that was given to Jesus to do? If you don’t supply a specific list then “It tells me of not knowing at best and confusion at worst.”

 

[quietthinker]

Ok, do you have a specific list of all the work that was given to Jesus to do? If you don’t supply a specific list then “It tells me of not knowing at best and confusion at worst.”

Sorry, your strategy is not working!

 

[WPM]

Firstly, your answer to a specific question is non specific. It tells me of not knowing at best and confusion at worst.
Secondly, what do I think? Jesus has finished the work given him to do.....and what was that? To reveal the character of God in its fulness.

Amen! ... and our Savior had to overcome. He had to defeat every enemy of righteousness. He had to overcome that which had overcome man - namely sin, Satan, hell and the grave. Christ’s present reign is therefore (1) to perfectly fulfill Scripture, and (2) to enforce the complete victory that was wrought. The resurrection is central to Christ’s current victorious reign. Through this and His current glorious heavenly reign, He has enabled those that die in Christ to reign with Him in glory.

When Christ came, justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan – the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) – the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) – the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment – the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

 

[grafted branch]

Sorry, your strategy is not working!

No strategy, just pointing out to you that nobody knows exactly all the work Jesus did, therefore your statement “It tells me of not knowing at best and confusion at worst” applies to you yourself too.