How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,833
1,453
113
69
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Please look at the context, the surrounding verses. Vss.13 & 14 (in the KJV) says: "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How can something intangible like death be burned? And if hell is fire, whats the purpose of throwing fire into fire? Fire, here, is symbolic... not literal.

As for "tormented" at Rev.20:10, the Greek word is "basanisthesontai". Please read Matthew 18:34, where a related word "basanistais" is rendered "tormentors" in some Bibles, and "jailers" in others. (It is referencing prison.) So the torment (in Revelation 20:10) refers to being "jailed" or restrained in eternal death / destruction. Such an understanding, explanation, agrees with Scriptures describing destruction (not torment), like Psalm 145:20; Daniel 7:26; 2 Peter 2:1,3,12; 2 Peter 3:7,16; Matthew 7:13; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:39; & Revelation 17:8,11.

Besides, burning people in fire - even temporarily - is in no way compatible with God's personality. (Jeremiah 7:31; see Exodus 34:6 & Nehemiah 9:17)
The Greek word basanisthesontai (βασανισθήσονται) means "they will be tormented/tortured" (future passive indicative, 3rd person plural). It comes from the root verb basanizo (βασανίζω), meaning "to torment, torture, or vex". It is notably used in the book of Revelation (e.g., 9:5, 20:10) to describe the future suffering of evil forces.

Death is defeated when one is ressurrected.

928. basanizó ►
Lexical Summary
basanizó: To torment, to torture, to vex, to distress
928 basanízō (from 931 /básanos, "a tormenting trial") – properly, to examine (literally by using torture).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 928: βασανίζω

βασανίζω: (imperfect ἐβασάνιζον); 1 aorist ἐβασανισα; passive (present βασανίζομαι); 1 aorist ἐβασανίσθην; 1 future βασανισθήσομαι; (βάσανος);
1. properly, to test (metals) by the touchstone.

2. to question by applying torture.

3. to torture (2 Macc. 7:13); hence,

4. universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment: τινα, Matthew 8:29; Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; 2 Peter 2:8; Revelation 11:10; passively, Matthew 8:6; Revelation 9:5; Revelation 20:10; of the pains of childbirth, Revelation 12:2 (cf. Anthol. 2, p. 205, Jacobs edition); with ἐν and the dative of the material in which one is tormented, Revelation 14:10.

5. Passive to be harassed, distressed; of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind, Mark 6:48; of a ship tossed by the waves, Matthew 14:24. (In Greek writings from Herodotus down. Often in O. T. Apocrypha.)
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,833
1,453
113
69
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Aside: I am told I died 22 times and was Resurrected each time. The truth of the matter is media(newspapers, tv, radio and email) reported my deaths and I did not die any of those times.
 

TazzJazz

Active Member
Jun 16, 2025
133
132
43
34
Canton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Curious as to why you would limit the number of those living on
the new earth to be only the "meek / mild tempered" referred to in the Beatitudes?
That seems like a lot of weight put on one verse. Is there other supporting scripture?
Where did I say 'only'? I also said "the righteous". (Same group of people.) But "the wicked" and "treacherous" will be gone. -- Prov. 2:21,22.

Please read Psalm 37:9-11, 29

There's a lot of verses that reference the future of mankind living on this Earth! In fact, way more about the Earth, than about going to Heaven.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen and Jack

walter

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2024
362
262
63
67
Arizona
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Doesn't Jesus speak about love for God and love for neighbor as being more important than most anything?

AI Overview
Yes, absolutely; Jesus taught that loving God wholeheartedly and loving your neighbor as yourself are the first and greatest commandments, summarizing all other laws and prophets in these two, showing they are the foundation of faith and more important than rituals or rules. He emphasized this isn't just a feeling but requires tangible actions of care, compassion, and generosity towards everyone, even enemies, linking love for God and love for others as inseparable. joy: :hearteyes:
 

rvmb

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2025
1,252
330
83
Adelaide
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Yes, for those who are Christ's "brothers." (Matt.25:40) But Jesus also spoke of the "meek / mild tempered", who will "inherit the earth."-- (Matt.5:5) The "righteous" who will "live forever on the Earth." -- Psalm 37:29; See Revelation 21:3,4.

These meek / mild tempered / righteous ones will be living here on Earth as subjects of God's Kingdom that Jesus said to pray for it to "come" and for "Thy will ]to] be done on Earth" (Matt. 6:9,10); Christ's Brothers are those who will rule w/ Him in that Kingdom, over obedient mankind.
Yet Paul teaches that believers covered by his Christ given ministry go to :-
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,821
5,949
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Doesn't Jesus speak about love for God and love for neighbor as being more important than most anything?
Actually Jesus' several warnings of Hell Fire are the most important doctrine in the NT!
AI Overview
Yes, absolutely; Jesus taught that loving God wholeheartedly and loving your neighbor as yourself are the first and greatest commandments, summarizing all other laws and prophets in these two, showing they are the foundation of faith and more important than rituals or rules. He emphasized this isn't just a feeling but requires tangible actions of care, compassion, and generosity towards everyone, even enemies, linking love for God and love for others as inseparable. joy: :hearteyes:
 
  • Love
Reactions: The Learner

rvmb

Well-Known Member
Jul 3, 2025
1,252
330
83
Adelaide
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Doesn't Jesus speak about love for God and love for neighbor as being more important than most anything?

AI Overview
Yes, absolutely; Jesus taught that loving God wholeheartedly and loving your neighbor as yourself are the first and greatest commandments, summarizing all other laws and prophets in these two, showing they are the foundation of faith and more important than rituals or rules. He emphasized this isn't just a feeling but requires tangible actions of care, compassion, and generosity towards everyone, even enemies, linking love for God and love for others as inseparable. joy: :hearteyes:
Are you game to do a quick "love your neighbor as yourself" test ?
ps, I fail MISERABLY
 
  • Haha
Reactions: The Learner

walter

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2024
362
262
63
67
Arizona
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Actually Jesus' several warnings of Hell Fire are the most important doctrine in the NT!
Why do you only listen to the words about Hellfire and not Jesus words about they "will not see life" and they are "destroyed"?

why can't you believe in all these three points explained by Jesus?
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,821
5,949
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why do you only listen to the words about Hellfire and not Jesus words about they "will not see life" and they are "destroyed"?
Have you ever read the Bible?

Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER!
why can't you believe in all these three points explained by Jesus?
I hope you're not leading people to Hell Fire. If you do you will be right there with them, FOREVER!
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

walter

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2024
362
262
63
67
Arizona
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER!
Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. New King James Version

Are you and I, the Devil, the Beast or the false Prophet? ........ I have never considered myself a prophet.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,821
5,949
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. New King James Version

Are you and I, the Devil, the Beast or the false Prophet? ........ I never have considered myself a profit.
Thank you for proving eternal Hell fire. The exact same fate for BILLIONS of humans! Jesus said so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
14,204
6,181
113
69
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
We believe in one God friend. When you make the false claim we have three gods, you discredit yourself... Yes, the Father is higher in rank. Fully agree on love of God and Jesus.

Count them up.....basic math.....Yahweh and Yeshua and Holy Spirit.....notice the ands.
Over a hundred scriptures prove there are three full-fledged Gods....God the Father did not begot Himself.
Posts 156-162
The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which hold true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.
 

walter

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2024
362
262
63
67
Arizona
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thank you for proving eternal Hell fire. The exact same fate for BILLIONS of humans! Jesus said so.
Jesus said: eternal fire and eternal punishment / will not see life / wide road to destruction. Thank you for the conversation, I wish we could agree on something. :ntmetu

Mark 4:12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them. American Standard Version

Is it possible that all Jesus words are true? The fire is eternal, the punishment is eternal, they will not see life, they are destroyed.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: The Learner

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,833
1,453
113
69
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Please elaborate.
My Brother Denis was killed by drunk drivers. I returned from NAM. Both Stories ran on the same page of a local paper. Mine had Daniel, the other had only D Marsh. People who knew me assumed it was me who died. From NAM various stories was reported on TV News that I died via Land Mine, ran over by a tank, Shot and Strabed. Near Denver CO, There was the Big Thompson Flood. There, a group of hiked up a Mountain, my knee gave out so we camped up there. During the night the flood came. We were picked up by Military Chopers to help in the Rescues. Stories were in the new papers, on radio and Tv including my home town. The others were natural disasters like floods, tornadios, huricanes, earth quakes. More were I broke up a Robbery and was shot. Each time I "died", I was sent on temporary duty somewhere since I was not allowed to report, be in my Offices. One of the times I was sent to Jonestown to help in the clean up by an Athest and LDS Officers to try to break up the Revivals that happened wherever, I was.
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,833
1,453
113
69
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Why do you only listen to the words about Hellfire and not Jesus words about they "will not see life" and they are "destroyed"?

why can't you believe in all these three points explained by Jesus?
What are all the definitions of destroyed?
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,833
1,453
113
69
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Count them up.....basic math.....Yahweh and Yeshua and Holy Spirit.....notice the ands.
Over a hundred scriptures prove there are three full-fledged Gods....God the Father did not begot Himself.
Posts 156-162
The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which hold true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.
Friend, please try 1^3 or 1x1x1 God is not limited to David Hume's math.
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
4,833
1,453
113
69
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Jesus said: eternal fire and eternal punishment / will not see life / wide road to destruction. Thank you for the conversation, I wish we could agree on something. :ntmetu

Mark 4:12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them. American Standard Version

Is it possible that all Jesus words are 100% true? The fire is eternal, the punishment is eternal, they will not see life, they are destroyed.
I think we all agree on Scriptures first, study of langues, then History, followed by study of Bible cultures then Archaeology.