the 1335 days, the 1290 days, the 45 days

[Douggg]

Greetings ewq1938,

The following extract from the wiki article gives a reasonable view of the development of the futurist view and the two Jesuits are mentioned:

"During the Reformation, historicism was the dominant view. All, or nearly all of the reformers saw the pope as Antichrist. Futurism emerged after this time as a Roman Catholic response to historicism. This rise of futurism is generally associated with a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera (1537–1591). Ribera is said to have developed his scheme for the purpose of refuting historicism and its papal antichrist. A scheme similar to Ribera's was put forward by Italian archbishop Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621).

Another Jesuit, Manuel Lacunza (1731–1801), wrote in favor of futurism under the pen name "Ben-Ezra", and his work was banned by the Catholic Church. Until the 19th century, the futurist view was generally shunned by non-Catholics, being seen as a self-defense of the papacy against the claims of the historicist reformers.

The futurist view entered Protestant circles around 1827 through Samuel R. Maitland, librarian to the Archbishop of Canterbury. It began to expand into Protestantism in the 1800s through the teachings of John Nelson Darby and dispensationalism.

Futurism has grown in popularity in the 19th and 20th centuries, and is currently followed by millions of Christians."

Kind regards
Trevor

Didn't those Catholic theologians assert that the Antichrist would be a Jew, and therefore the Antichrist could not be the pope ?

I agree that the Antichrist will be a Jew.

 

[Douggg]

Greetings again Douggg,

No, my fellowship precedes the SDAs, but these two items were well expounded for many centuries before the 1800s. The futurist interpretation was introduced by two Jesuits to deflect the attention of many Protestants from the Papacy.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor, I am a futurist. What would you label your eschatological view ?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Douggg,

I agree that the Antichrist will be a Jew.

I consider that the Antichrist is the Papacy as a system and also the individual. Daniel 7 is an important start..

What would you label your eschatological view ?

Continuous Historic view. Daniel 2 is a good example, but I also believe that the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are successive.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ewq1938]

Either way, if you're saved under the Christ given Ministry to Paul then you're coming along for the ride

I won't join that "ride".

 

[ewq1938]

Greetings ewq1938,

The following extract from the wiki article gives a reasonable view of the development of the futurist view and the two Jesuits are mentioned:

As I said, futurism existed long before the 1500's. Read from the church fathers before the RCC existed and you will find ALL of them to be early versions of Premill futurists. Wiki articles are meaningless FYI.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again ewq1938,

Wiki articles are meaningless FYI.

I accept the mention of the two Jesuits and how that now many Pentecostals and Evangelicals have now adopted this view by comparison to the Historicist view.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Douggg]

I consider that the Antichrist is the Papacy as a system and also the individual. Daniel 7 is an important start..

Although I don't think the papacy/pope will be the Antichrist. The woman in Revelation 17 (drunk with the blood of saints and Christian martyrs - of the inquisition period), that will be destroyed by the ten kings aligned with the beast-king (the Antichrist person) in Revelation 17:16, represents the Vatican which will be burnt to the ground.

 

[Davy]

The Hebrew and Greek word for `Day` is a period of time and a specific day. You are only seeing the specific day. The period of time is mentioned in Joel 2 and other places.

I didn't disagree with that.

"a period of time" = the Rev.20 "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect when He returns.
"a specific day" = the 1st literal day of that future reign that begins at His future return, called the "day of the Lord."

NO conflict there.

 

[rvmb]

I won't join that "ride".

If you're saved under the Christ given Ministry to Paul you wont have a choice

 

[Davy]

As I said, futurism existed long before the 1500's. Read from the church fathers before the RCC existed and you will find ALL of them to be early versions of Premill futurists. Wiki articles are meaningless FYI.

I have to admit, that's right, the 1st century Apostles and early Church fathers were all Pre-mill. The Amill theory didn't begin until later, and Augustine of the RCC made Amill popular around the 3rd century A.D. So Amill is a later doctrine of men that crept into the Church.

 

[Davy]

The problem I have is that if it's at the last trump...and there are no more trumpets after the 7th, then the 7th must be the last. It also correlates with the reward and judgement of the dead after the 7th trump in Rev 11

But come on brethren... Lord Jesus made it plain that the day of His future return to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Thus the events of the coming "man of sin" that Apostle Paul forewarned of MUST occur first, and that will be the "great tribulation" time. That "man of sin" appearing in Jerusalem to sit in a new 3rd stone temple there and place the "abomination of desolation" IDOL ("image of the beast"), causing false worship, is what the "great tribulation" event will be about at the end of this world, just prior to Christ's coming to gather His Church. That's the "strong delusion" event Paul was referring to in 2 Thess.2.

 

[ewq1938]

If you're saved under the Christ given Ministry to Paul you wont have a choice

That's wrong. The only "apostasia" before the trib is plain old Apostasy, people departing from the faith to a false god. There is a choice in doing that so choose wisely.

 

[ewq1938]

Greetings again ewq1938,

I accept the mention of the two Jesuits and how that now many Pentecostals and Evangelicals have now adopted this view by comparison to the Historicist view.

Kind regards
Trevor

and many accept preterism and Amill too....Dispensation and those views are all false including end times views of SDA/Mormon/JW etc etc. Only futurism is true and biblically supported.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again ewq1938,

Only futurism is true and biblically supported.

I consider that my understanding of the visions of Daniel 2, Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 are reasonably correct and valid and form a basis for understanding the rest of the Book of Daniel and also a strong basis for understanding the Book of Revelation. These chapters give a solid framework, speaking of many events that have already occurred and then the establishment of the future Kingdom of God upon the earth. I am unaware of a clear or consistent futurism exposition of these three chapters. Possibly part of the response would be that it all has not happened yet.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Marilyn C]

I didn't disagree with that.

"a period of time" = the Rev.20 "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect when He returns.
"a specific day" = the 1st literal day of that future reign that begins at His future return, called the "day of the Lord."

NO conflict there.

Hi Davy,

That thousand years is NOT called the Day of the Lord, though I agree that it is IN the Day of the Lord period of time. Joel 2 shows us (& other prophecies) that the Day of the LORD is also a period of time.

 

[rvmb]

That's wrong. The only "apostasia" before the trib is plain old Apostasy, people departing from the faith to a false god. There is a choice in doing that so choose wisely.

GATHERING - the rapture to be in the clouds with the Lord.
THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME - day of Christ
DAY OF CHRIST - post rapture - the Lord returns to the EARTH not in the clouds.
FALLING AWAY - post rapture
MAN OF SIN REVEALED - post rapture
****

 

[ewq1938]

GATHERING - the rapture to be in the clouds with the Lord.
THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME - day of Christ
DAY OF CHRIST - post rapture - the Lord returns to the EARTH not in the clouds.
FALLING AWAY - post rapture
MAN OF SIN REVEALED - post rapture
****
View attachment 75323

No, Paul says the gathering happens at the Coming, not two separated events. The second coming and rapture cannot happen until two events of the trib happen which makes a pretrib rapture impossible.

 

[rvmb]

No, Paul says the gathering happens at the Coming, not two separated events. The second coming and rapture cannot happen until two events of the trib happen which makes a pretrib rapture impossible.

We all have our opinions based on what we think is correct interpretation of Scripture
Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 is how we are saved today and not how wrong you/we are about other things.
See you on the PRE-TRIB way up

 

[ewq1938]

We all have our opinions based on what we think is correct interpretation of Scripture
Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 is how we are saved today and not how wrong you/we are about other things.
See you on the PRE-TRIB way up

You might see me but I won't be with you and that group.

 

[rvmb]

You might see me but I won't be with you and that group.

More than one rapture of the Body of Christ ?
Wow, you really have been hit with a confusion stick