God has only got one chosen people

[Spiritual Israelite]

I actually was posting for the sake of another poster on here. Such as Zao is Life, and DavidPT, as both were into this earlier.

What does that mean? What you posted doesn't reflect what you believe? How do you interpret Romans 11:28?

 

[Scott Downey]

You are saying all unbelieving Jews are beloved for the father's sakes, including those who never believe. How can that make sense? That's like saying the scribes and Pharisees that Jesus ranted against in Matthew 23, including asking them how they could avoid hell, were beloved for the father's sakes. No, they were not. This describes who the beloved are...

Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


You obviously don't even know what the word "beloved" (Greek: agapētos) means. It's beyond the general love that God has for the world (John 3:16). It's a special kind of love that God only has for those who belong to Christ and have a personal relationship with Him. The word is most often used in scripture when God describes His beloved Son. The word simply would never be used to refer to any unbeliever at any time. An unbeliever can later become one of the beloved by believing, but while they are in disbelief, they are not beloved.


I'm honestly quite surprised by this. I can't comprehend how you can understand the meaning of Romans 11:26, but not the meaning of Romans 11:28.


That's referring to believing Gentiles. You need to read the first part of Romans 11 to understand what that verse means.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

See here how the stumbling of the unbelieving Jews made the way for salvation to come to the Gentiles, who, in turn, were to make those unbelieving Jews envious? That's how the Gentiles obtained mercy through the unbelief of those unbelieving Jews.


Did you not read where I showed you who "the election" are, based on what is written in Romans 1:5-7? The election refers to the remnant of Israelite believers of Paul's time, which included Paul himself. Paul contrasted them with "the rest" who "were blinded". So, when Paul says "concerning the election" in Romans 11:28, using scripture to interpret scripture, that means he was referring to the remnant of elect believers.

IT brings up something interesting, who does God love? Does God hate some and love others?

I would say individuals, God loves or hates, whereas God's covenantal love, is a different aspect. I think that is what Paul is describing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where have i changed since SI turned up? I actually clarified your comments to SI in a sympathetic way.

You did. But, don't expect him to have any understanding of that. He's just here to needlessly stir things up, as always.

 

[Zao is life]

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.


As concerning the gospel, enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, beloved for the fathers' sakes

How can when read in this manner that a pronoun is not meant?

Take the following, for instance.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The translators added the 'are'. Do you then think it is incorrect that 'are' is meant here? So do you think it makes sense of the text like such--where the beast and the false prophet? Probably not, right?

Getting back to Romans 11:28.

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

From this point on through verse 28, the remnant that are not cutoff are not the subjects, Gentiles and unbelieving Jews are.

Provide one verse from verse 8 through verse 25 where the subject is the remnant that aren't cutoff. Then explain how this in verse 28-- As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes--doesn't agree with the subject matter concerning verses 8-25? You of course agree it does. But then you do not even remain consistent, though. You have the rest of that verse not even pertaining to the subject matter verses 8-25 have been involving. IOW, you are disregarding context in this case.

By your logic above:

Since the "they" who are enemies of the gospel in verse 28 are the same as the "they" who are beloved for the fathers' sakes, this means that the "them" in verse 17 who are broken off are the same as the "them" among whom the Gentiles have been grafted in:

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;" (verse 17)

So I have a question for you:

If the "they" who are beloved for the father's sakes in verse 28 are the same as the "they" who are enemies, then is Paul speaking of those who are beloved for the fathers' sakes when he says, "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them." in verse 14?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

IT brings up something interesting, who does God love? Does God hate some and love others?

He loves all people (John 3:16), but the word "love" used there (agapaō) is a different word than the word "beloved" used in Romans 11:28 (agapētos). The word used in Romans 11:28 only describes those who God has a close personal, loving relationship with. It's not a word that would be used to describe His love for humanity, in general, or the word Jesus used when He commands us to love our enemies.

I would say individuals, God loves or hates, whereas God's covenantal love, is a different aspect. I think that is what Paul is describing.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Who are "the election" in Romans 11:7? When Paul says "concerning the election" in Romans 11:28, don't you think he is talking about "the election" he previously referenced in Romans 11:7?

 

[Scott Downey]

God's covenantal love is not His love for an individual person necessarily.
It is the kind of general love like this

John 3
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Topical Bible: Covenantal Love

 

[Davidpt]

That is correct, but you come across sometimes as if you are relying on ChatGPT as your Bible teacher and not just as a tool to help clarify your points.

Chatgpt as my Bible teacher? Where was Chatgpt 5 years ago? 10 years ago? 20 years ago? If I didn't need it as Bible teacher back then why would I need it as one now? Chatgpt has never changed my mind about anything I already believe and have concluded way before there was such a thing as Chatgpt. If anything, it tends to agree a lot of times with what I believe and have concluded. Maybe that's the attraction? After all, who doesn't like being agreed with about things? Especially when one is convinced they are correct, when there are others that are unconvinced they are correct. Therefore, I say take agreement about something wherever you can find it, if you are someone such as me. Even if means it's Chatgpt being in agreement with what you are concluding.

 

[Zao is life]

Look in the mirror, hypocrite.

No I stopped that because I saw you in the mirror. Now I just look at the words of Christ and by the Holy Spirit I inwardly know whether or not I'm reflecting Him.

Like I said, I'm not returning your personal insults anymore - my first sentence above is not an insult. It's the truth.

 

[WPM]

Chatgpt as my Bible teacher? Where was Chatgpt 5 years ago? 10 years ago? 20 years ago? If I didn't need it as Bible teacher back then why would I need it as one now? Chatgpt has never changed my mind about anything I already believe and have concluded way before there was such a thing as Chatgpt. If anything, it tends to agree a lot of times with what I believe and have concluded. Maybe that's the attraction? After all, who doesn't like being agreed with about things? Especially when one is convinced they are correct, when there are others that are unconvinced they are correct. Therefore, I say take agreement about something wherever you can find it, if you are someone such as me. Even if means it's Chatgpt being in agreement with what you are concluding.

AI Dave,

You just use Chatgpt to justify your false teaching now. Talk about misguided and foolish. You no longer seem to need the Bible and the Holy Spirit to do that for you.

 

[Scott Downey]

Not everything about God's love is comprehensible by people.

And as you see in life, many people have many different thoughts on the love of God.

 

[Zao is life]

Where have i changed since SI turned up? I actually clarified your comments to SI in a sympathetic way.

You became more personal immediately with others. You left me out of a condescending tone but the increased condescension in your tone with someone else posting here was marked the moment your support showed up.

 

[Marilyn C]

Name one Israelite or any person at any time in history who God prevented from ever receiving Christ at any time in their lives. I know Paul talks about Israelites who were blinded by God in Romans 11, but that was only temporary. Paul said he hoped to lead some of those who were blinded to salvation (Romans 11:14). The idea that God didn't enable the Israelites to receive him ignores the fact that some did receive Him and all were given the opportunity to receive Him because God wants all people, including all Israelites, to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6).

Yes - individual people however God desires the whole nation for His purpose.

So, why did God make the nation of Israel dealing with them for centuries giving them feasts, laws, instructions etc ?

 

[Scott Downey]

God so loved the world, that He made it possible for all of them to be saved, including unbelieving jews, but His love does not prevent His wrath and justice being exacted against them.

If the unbelieving Jews are beloved because of the Fathers (believing Patriarchs), are the unbelieving gentiles less loved by God than them?

 

[Marilyn C]

What difference does it make why God didn't just do that from the start? That doesn't change the fact that scripture teaches that all believers are part of one body now. You seem to be diverting attention away from what scripture teaches with your questions.

We both agree concerning the Body of Christ now after 4,000 years. However, God must have had a purpose for waiting that long. And just saying that we are all now one group does NOT account for that purpose as written in God`s word.

 

[WPM]

You became more personal immediately with others. You left me out of a condescending tone but the increased condescension in your tone with someone else posting here was marked the moment your support showed up.

I do not believe so. I challenged Marilyn C who refuses to explain what she mean in an ambiguous post. Her post was a cut and paste from the last time I asked for an explanation. Obviously she does not want to clarify and just wants to play games. I do not like that.

 

[Marilyn C]

Why do Dispies apply this to the end? Where does it say that? What about Israel over this past 2000 years?

Yes, individuals but NOT the Nation of Israel. For that to happen God needs to intervene.

 

[WPM]

Yes, individuals but NOT the Nation of Israel. For that to happen God needs to intervene.

This has been ongoing since Bible times. Where does it say He will save the whole nation?

 

[Marilyn C]

This has been ongoing since Bible times. Where does it say He will save the whole nation?

Rom. 11: 26........ Zech. 12: 7 - 10...........13: 1 - 9 ..........14: 16

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Chatgpt as my Bible teacher?

Yes, that's what I said.

Where was Chatgpt 5 years ago? 10 years ago? 20 years ago? If I didn't need it as Bible teacher back then why would I need it as one now?

Some of the things you're saying are based on what ChatGPT says. That's how you come across. Including your understanding of Romans 11:28. You think ChatGPT telling you that a verse should be understood based on English grammar rules is a valid point and that influences how you interpret that verse. But, just like ChatGPT, you are ignoring the context of Romans 11, overall, when interpreting Romans 11:28. ChatGPT also does not take into account the meaning of the Greek word translated as "beloved" in Romans 11:28. You allow that to influence your understanding of the verse.

Chatgpt has never changed my mind about anything I already believe and have concluded way before there was such a thing as Chatgpt.

That is not what I'm claiming you are doing. What you are doing is allowing ChatGPT to influence you to take what you think a verse means and decide that is what the verse must mean because of input that you give to ChatGPT. My point is that ChatGPT should not have any influence at all over your understanding of a verse or over the confidence level you have that your understanding is correct. You should not only not use ChatGPT to gain understanding of biblical truth, but you should not use it to confirm your understanding, either. ChatGPT can be manipulated to agree with any view. What I'm seeing you doing sometimes with ChatGPT is beyond just using it to help format and clarify your own thoughts.

If anything, it tends to agree a lot of times with what I believe and have concluded.

LOL. Of course it does. It is influenced by what you input into it. You can manipulate it to agree with you and you can manipulate it to disagree with you, depending on what you input into it.

Maybe that's the attraction? After all, who doesn't like being agreed with about things?

I can see that as being an attraction for you since people don't seem to agree with you very often on this forum.

Especially when one is convinced they are correct, when there are others that are unconvinced they are correct. Therefore, I say take agreement about something wherever you can find it, if you are someone such as me. Even if means it's Chatgpt being in agreement with what you are concluding.

I think that's sad. You shouldn't need to use AI to try to confirm whether what you believe is correct or not. It can be manipulated to do so. That's not a valid way of confirming your beliefs.

 

[WPM]

Rom. 11: 26 Zech. 12: 7 - 10 13: 1 - 9

Quote and explain. This means nothing. This is the tactic Van Imp has used for years deceiving people.