Amil interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12 vs Genesis 9:15

[Spiritual Israelite]

If this was just a mere localized flood then God has broken his covenant numerous since the beginning. After all, the world has witnessed many localized floods over the centuries that have resulted in the loss of countless lives.

Great point! Unfortunately, some Christians foolishly choose to believe biased, secular, anti-God and anti-Bible scientists over God's word which clearly teaches that the flood in Noah's day was global and not local. As you said, if the flood was only local then that would mean God has broken His covenant about never again flooding the earth many times. So, these preterists who believe the flood was local make God out to be a liar. Since they don't believe that 2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are referring to global fire (fire coming down on the entire earth), then they can't allow for the flood to be global since Peter compared the scope of the fire referenced in those verses is compared directly to the scope of the flood waters in Noah's day (2 Peter 3:6-7).

 

[WPM]

This does seem to be a problem for Premills like myself. When we speak of the "destruction of the heavens," it sounds like the entire universe is on fire, which, of course, is not possible unless the entire universe is destroyed to make way for a completely new creation of the universe. The universe does not burn. Not even a sun exploding destroys the entire universe. The "heavens" appears to be a reference to the *sky* within the domain of earth.

The 1st creation is the one the Bible says will remain. It does say there will be a new heavens and a new earth, but at the same time we are told that the earth is forever. We're told that several times in the Scriptures. It's talking about the *present earth* and not some future new earth.

So, God has no intention of re-creating the universe. He just is going to make the present one new, or eternal. In its current form it is not eternal--it is heading towards extinction. But God said He would make the heavens and the earth "new." By that I think He is saying He will make it eternal, or change its form.

If God is not going to completely annihilate the current heavens and earth what does Peter mean by saying the heavens will be "destroyed?" God doesn't have to actually "destroy" the heavens and the earth to make way for a new one. He could simply make one disappear and the new one appear. But the concept of "destruction" is employed to show a judgment, and that is, I think, the point.

I think Peter is looking at a global event in terms of local judgments throughout the world. When an enemy burns down a village and the fields, the fire rises high into the sky, or heavens, and the smoke turns the sun dark. The moon looks like blood. And the result is that all of the works of wicked men are destroyed in a short period of time, exposing them as cursed, ungodly people.

Keep in mind that Peter does not appear to be talking about the annihilation of everything. If the heavens "disappaear" the elements do not melt! Once the heavens disappear there is no longer any earth or material to burn! Therefore, I think Peter is speaking in terms of the destruction of fire such as he saw in his own time, with great fires rising to consume the oxygen in the heavens, and with the heat getting so hot that metal melts.

The idea has to do with God destroying the works of wicked men, who do not deserve to have their works last. It is an exposing of how God views all that they've done on earth. My view only....

This is all carnal reasoning to justify false teaching. This passage refutes your position.

You make God small and limited.

God just has to speak the word and the bondage of corruption on this earth (and in the universe) and all the wicked left behind with their wickedness will go up in a puff of smoke at Jesus return.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I would say it is relevant, Sodom and Gomorra were local and the flood was local. That’s important information when we look at 2 Peter 3.

The whole entire planet didn’t perish when He came in 70AD

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed locally - yes. The fire only fell on those cities and the surrounding plain.
However, God uses Sodom and Gomorrah as a pattern or example of His final judgment. God's Word often uses past, local events, including Egypt's plagues, flood, etc. to warn of future, global events. Sodom was just a preview, a sample, a warning sign.

The Word of God itself says the past destruction is an example of a future universal judgment. There are seveeral passages that directly explain this:

2 Peter 2:6

• (6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

God is showing what His final judgment upon the whole world will look like — total, consuming fire — even though the original event was limited to two cities.

Jude 1:6-7

• And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
• Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sounds like 70 A.D. Nope! Because the "eternal fire" clearly refers to the end-times destruction of the ungodly, 2nd Peter 3.

And Jesus confirms this pattern:

Luke 17:28-30
(28) Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
(29) But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
(30) Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Sorry, bud, Son of Man did "NOT" revealed in 70 A.D.! He is not saying the destruction will be local. He was saying that the pattern, the suddenness, and the totality will be the same. Selah!

5. Final judgment is worldwide — and that’s what Peter explains​

2 Peter 3:6-7

• Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
• But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The flood was worldwide destruction by water. Global, not local. Therefore, the future worldwide destruction will be by fire using Sodom's fire as a preview for Global! Not local or city Jerusalem.

Therefore... God warned of worldwide fire—using Sodom as an example—not because Sodom was global, but because its type of judgment prefigures the final global judgment.

Selah!

 

[WPM]

The whole entire planet didn’t perish when He came in 70AD

He never came in 70AD. Where are the testimonies? Nowhere. Only in Preterist novels.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is regenerated by fire. It cleanses the curse. It does not evaporate the universe.

100% False

The heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" by the Lord's fire down to their very elements, it will be a completely "New Creation"

 

[WPM]

100% False

The heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" by the Lord's fire down to their very elements, it will be a completely "New Creation"

Please address the biblical evidence above that you avoided. Your opinions do not trump Scripture.

 

[Davidpt]

It is regenerated by fire. It cleanses the curse. It does not evaporate the universe. Hello! That is the most common position within Amil. You know that. You have been told that enough times. But you choose to misrepresent Amil at every turn.

Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth when Jesus comes. Job prophesied that the Lord would stand on this earth at the end of the age. Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.”

There is no reason to imagine that Job was thinking about any other earth. There is no other earth than this present one that he would have been familiar with.

But the earth will not be in its current corrupt form. Scripture tells us: it will be a regenerated earth. Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3 show a fiery regeneration taking place when Jesus appears. It will be an earth totally purged of all corruption. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed / regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

Psalm 10:30 says, “The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.”

What earth is the Psalmist talking about? An impending earth that only the righteous can inherit. The wicked are not qualified to inherit the new glorified earth and the perfect age to come. That is because one needs to be glorified to inherit a glorified environment.

Psalm 25:12-13 says: “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”

The glorified saints are said to inherit the earth. This is assuredly talking about a new glorified earth, not this current corrupt arrangement that they have just departed. Their inheritance is not another period of corruption, rebellion and despair. They have just escaped that. The promised earth in view is actually depicted as a reward for the faithful. It cannot therefore be shared with the wicked.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

This is a truth that is repeated clearly and unambiguously throughout both Testaments.

Psalm 37:22 says, “For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”

Psalm 37:28-36 continues, “For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever ... Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.”

Here, “evildoers” and “the wicked” are synonymous titles that refer to the unrighteous whereas the designations “those that wait upon the LORD,” “the meek” and “His saints” refer to the righteous.

Christ confirmed this in Matthew 5:5 saying, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

The meek alone possess the new earth – those that have been redeemed by His precious blood. The meek are the glorified believers. They are the antithesis of the wicked. There are only ever 2 peoples. The meek alone possess the new earth - those that have been redeemed by His precious blood.

Jesus is very clear in his teaching. He fully knows the importance of words. Here He talks about this current earth and promises that we will one day inherit it. God keeps His Word. He does not break His promise. The reason this will be fulfilled is because the world will last forever, albeit in a perfected condition.

It does not make sense to teach that this earth will be completely annihilated and replaced by an entirely separate new earth. That would contradict multiple Scriptures which indicate that the earth will last forever.

Another strong reason to believe that this current earth will be regenerated is the fact that different Old Testament Scriptures tell us that this earth will last forever. These passages would suggest the continuation of this earth in some form.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, “the earth abideth forever.”

Psalm 78:69 says, “the earth which he hath established forever.”

Psalm 93:1b says, “The world also is established, that it cannot be moved.”

Psalm 96:10 says, “the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved.”

Psalm 104:5 says, “Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever.”

This literally means “So that it will not totter forever and ever." The word totter means, to refrain from moving out of place.

How am I misrepresenting Amil if some Amils believe that the fire is literal, and that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames? How does that not equal there are goes all plant life, the entire animal kingdom, not to mention, infants and children being burned alive as well. After all, if the comparison is Noah's flood, Amils, such as you , know good and well God never spared any infants nor children. So why would He spare them this time around when He never spared them the first time around? It can't be a valid comparison, meaning in a literal sense, unless everything between both accounts match.

But guess what He did spare? He spared plant life and He spared the animal kingdom. Already your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12 is in disagreement with Noah's flood, not in agreement with it. How do you suppose plant life and the animal kingdom is going to withstand a planet literally engulfed in flames, and plant life and the animal kingdom still be existing once the flames of fire have gone out?


But I do agree with you that the entire planet is not replaced with an entirely different one, which appears to be @Truth7t7 position. Except I do not agree that that is the correct position to hold. Therefore, per that argument between you and @Truth7t7, I'm on your side of the argument, minus my reasoning of these things above in the first 2 paragraphs.

 

[WPM]

How am I misrepresenting Amil if some Amils believe that the fire is literal, and that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames? How does that not equal there are goes all plant life, the entire animal kingdom, not to mention, infants and children being burned alive as well. After all, if the comparison is Noah's flood, Amils, such as you , know good and well God never spared any infants nor children. So why would He spare them this time around when He never spared them the first time around? It can't be a valid comparison, meaning in a literal sense, unless everything between both accounts match.

But guess what He did spare? He spared plant life and He spared the animal kingdom. Already your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12 is in disagreement with Noah's flood, not in agreement with it. How do you suppose plant life and the animal kingdom is going to withstand a planet literally engulfed in flames, and then still be existing once the flames of fire have gone out?


But I do agree with you that the entire planet is not replaced with an entirely different one, which appears to be @Truth7t7 position. Except I do not agree that that is the correct position to hold. Therefore, per that argument between you and @Truth7t7, I'm on your side of the argument, minus my reasoning of these things above in the first 2 paragraphs.

Anything blighted by the Fall will be glorified and perfected. When Jesus comes in His glory, Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration [Gr. paliggenesia] when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Where does this mention or support a future sin-cursed goat-infested death-blighted Premil millennium? Nowhere! This is more adding to Scripture on your behalf.

This Greek word paliggenesia simply means renewal, restoration recreation, and regeneration. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state.

Premils have no answer to the fact that Scripture shows the regeneration of the earth, heavens and elements to occur at Christ’s return, not after some supposed future millennial kingdom blighted with sin and sinners, dying and crying, disease and decay, corruption and crime, riots and rebellion, war and terror and Satan and his minions of the Premil scenario, including the pointless slaughter of countless innocent animals during that period.

The fact is: sin, death, disease, Satan, the wicked, wickedness and decay corrupt this current age, but are banished from the age to come at the end with the regeneration of the whole cosmos.

I agree with what Albert Barnes says on “the regeneration" here: “the word also means any great change, or a restoration of things to a former state or to a better state. In this sense it is probably used here. It refers to that great revolution-that restoration of order in the universe-that universal new birth which will occur when the dead shall rise, and all human things shall be changed, and a new order of things shall start up out of the ruins of the old, when the Son of man shall come to judgment. The passage, then, should be read, ‘Ye which have followed me shall, as a reward in the great day of the resurrection of the dead, and of forming the new and eternal order of things-the day of judgment, the regeneration – be signally honored and blessed’.”

Other translations seem to agree with this conclusion, interpreting this passage:

• "In the new world" ESV
• “In the new creation” Weymouth NT
• "When the world is made new" NLT
• "At the renewal of all things" NRSV

 

[Truth7t7]

Please address the biblical evidence above that you avoided. Your opinions do not trump Scripture.

The heavens and earth will be dissolved to their very elements, it will be a new creation

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is all carnal reasoning to justify false teaching. This passage refutes your position.

You make God small and limited.

God just has to speak the word and the bondage of corruption on this earth (and in the universe) and all the wicked left behind with their wickedness will go up in a puff of smoke at Jesus return.

You are perpetually judgmental. I'm just stating my position--not trying to pass off heresy. ;)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

100% False

The heavens and earth will be "Dissolved" by the Lord's fire down to their very elements, it will be a completely "New Creation"

For how long do you think the meek will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)?

 

[Truth7t7]

For how long do you think the meek will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)?

How long will you deny God's words, "Elements Dissolved" and "I Create" as seen in post #69

This earth isn't going to be regenerated as WPM claims, it's going to be dissolved by the Lord's fire and then the completely new creation in the new heaven and earth takes place

 

[Davidpt]

How long will you deny God's words, "Elements Dissolved" and "I Create" as seen in post #69

This earth isn't going to be regenerated as WPM claims, it's going to be dissolved by the Lord's fire and then the completely new creation in the new heaven and earth takes place

There is more to creating a new earth other than something physical. It is also involving a new way of life, thus not experienced since the beginning when God initially made Adam and Adam's time on the earth before he fell. Except this time around the experience will be even better, not to mention, never ending this time around.


"Elements Dissolved"----In your mind then, there is no such thing as ever using figurative language, therefore, everything has to always be meaning in the literal sense?

Who knows then, maybe you believe something absurd, such as the stars depicted in Revelation 6 and Matthew 24:26 falling from heaven, that literal stars are meant here, that literal stars are falling out of outer space and hurling towards the earth below. Which then makes absurd nonsense in regards to verse 30---and they shall see the Son of man coming in great glory. Who shall see Him doing that from the earth below if there is not even an earth below for anyone to be observing Him coming in power and great glory? No one would be observing that from the earth below if the planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time, therefore, burning them up with the planet. No one would be observing that from the earth below if literal stars have been falling to the earth, therefore, destroying the entire planet and all lifeforms with it.

The nonsense one has to believe in order to be Amil. As if Matthew 24:30 makes sense if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

I think its good to stay alert, Gods justice comes in time. It doesnt always happen straightaway.

 

[Truth7t7]

"Elements Dissolved"----In your mind then, there is no such thing as ever using figurative language, therefore, everything has to always be meaning in the literal sense?

Read the words of God below real slow, the earth will be burned up and dissolved by the Lords literal fire in final judgement, simple, clear, easy to understand

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How long will you deny God's words, "Elements Dissolved" and "I Create" as seen in post #69

This earth isn't going to be regenerated as WPM claims, it's going to be dissolved by the Lord's fire and then the completely new creation in the new heaven and earth takes place

Was my question too difficult for you to answer? When people avoid answering simple questions, you know they are believing falsehood. I'll try again.

For how long do you think the meek will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Elements Dissolved"----In your mind then, there is no such thing as ever using figurative language, therefore, everything has to always be meaning in the literal sense?

LOL. What an ironic thing for a Premil to say. Obviously, there is a lot of figurative language in the book of Revelation, for example, but there is no indication anywhere in 2nd Peter 3 that Peter is using figurative language when describing the destruction of the world by water in Noah's day and when describing the destruction of the heavens and the earth when Jesus comes again as a thief in the night. You take a lot of the figurative language in Revelation literally and the literal text of 2nd Peter 3 figuratively. Your way of thinking is all messed up.

 

[Truth7t7]

Was my question too difficult for you to answer? When people avoid answering simple questions, you know they are believing falsehood. I'll try again.

For how long do you think the meek will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)?

Revelation 21:1KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 21:1KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

For how long do you think the meek will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)? This is not a hard question, so please just answer it. If you don't answer it, then I can't take you seriously.

 

[Truth7t7]

For how long do you think the meek will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5)? This is not a hard question, so please just answer it. If you don't answer it, then I can't take you seriously.

The heavens and earth will be dissolved to their very elements, it will be a new creation

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.