What happened to the 10 toes in Daniel 2?
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Thanks for your response! To be candid I do not know if the Reformers interpreted the 10 horns as 10 secular kingdoms.
What I would respectfully ask you is to identify exactly when and why the 10 toes in chapter 2 are being symbolized by God in chapter 7 as 10 horns (powers). This is not an easy task.
In chapter 2 God shows the 10 toes within the iron kingdom of Rome. The 4th kingdom is not a kingdom of iron and clay, but Rome is a kingdom of pure iron. No one stood a chance with Rome. They dominated the entire world and would never partner with anyone. Meaning, these 10 toes as well as the clay represent a 3rd party or a captive nation held within Rome. As you know. Rome conquered hundreds of nations but the book of Daniel is about His people not any other conquered nation.
The clay represents the Jewish people subjugated by Rome at the time the Messiah will arrive. The 70 weeks of years prophecy culminates in His arrival on the first day of the 70th week to begin His ministry.
In chapter 7 God reveals what has occurred AFTER the cross. Now, the 10 toes are being referred as 10 horns or powers. AFTER the 10 horns COME OUT of this 4th beast of pagan Rome (after the cross), then God reveals the coming out of a little horn. There is no mention of the timing in these verses (no dates given of course) but we are given in 7:11 a verse telling us the 4th beast will be slain and its body is destroyed. That verse refers to 476 AD when pagan Rome is no longer. Thus, both the 10 horns and the little horn HAD to come out of the 4th beast BEFORE it was slain.
Chapter 2 is the most difficult chapter in Daniel to unpack- with the exception of chapter 11- which is out of this world difficult.
If you would like a free copy of my commentary on Daniel let me know in a PM… it does go into great detail each chapter. This commentary is a serious departure from “today’s accepted interpretations” which have been based on historical / secular history. Instead, it is based on how it prophecies the coming of the Messiah… and His church and the one (little horn) who will corrupt it until He returns.
If others want a free copy, please PM me. Thanks.
Thanks in return.
Insofar as the (presumed ten) toes in Daniel 2 are attached to and associated with the pagan Roman (iron) kingdom, and are themselves partially iron to further confirm the association, then it seems reasonable to me to believe that they reappear in Daniel 7 as the ten kingdoms which arose out of the Roman dissolution. Their descriptions in Daniel 2 (i.e. partially clay; broken) simply indicate that they would never experience the global dominion and domination of their pagan Roman predecessor.
Note that most of the more recent Reformationist/historicist expositors (e.g. Barnes, Clarke, Gill) regard the ten kingdoms as secular. It seems reasonable to me to believe that most of the preceding Reformation Reformers were of like persuasion.
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Thanks again for your response. I cetainly agree with you that the scholars you mentioned, along with more than a few others that have provided what we might call today's "accepted interpretations." have identified the 10 as future kingdoms - whether they arrive after 500 AD or in the 1500's or even are believed to be those still to come. Some / many contend they might refer to the EU or to Islamic nations or some other group of ten. In the beginning of my study on Daniel, I naturally read all of their interpretations. These were the academics, scholars and theologians that may have spent much of their lifetime studying Daniel. I expected my task would be relatively easy since these brilliant folks have already done the heavy lifting. I simply would have to put the effort and time in to ensure I understood their thoughts - this was not my field of expertise by far. In fact, I had never read Daniel or the other books of the bible by that time.
But I was able to come away with the understanding that one could find many scholars that disagreed with thier other fellow scholars and they would bring in completely different interpretations on the same series of verses or the main events within the chapters. That did not make sense to me since - I expected more agreement than disagreement. Further, I don't believe I found one interpreter that provided a consistent prophetic flow throught the 12 chapters. Although I had absolutely no idea what the verses were telling me, it was clear that there was no interpretation - whether preterist or futurist that could put it all together. What I did find is that almost all have used an "historical" approach to interpreted Daniel. Place Daniel on the left side of the table with our history books on the right side and try to match them to each other. And in most cases, when they could not find a corresponding event or actor to match up, they almost always declared the verses / events must have not taken place yet and will occur in the far future.
The second major mistake that they ALL have made is also related to this "historical" approah. They look for secular events and actors that fulfill or believe they fulfill the many prophecies in Daniel. Instead, they should attempt to interpret Daniel as it relates to the coming of the Messiah and His plan of restoration, not only for His people and His city, but for mankind. That is what Daniel is all about - not the 4 kingdoms, no additionsl 10 kingdoms, no concern for wars and conflicts outside the 4 kingdoms. Most, perhaps 90% of Daniel covers the period from 606 BC - when the Jews are taken into exile to 500 AD when the little horn will come to full power and appropriate His church that He established at His first coming. That is Daniel.. Revelation picks up where Daniel left off with details.
So, if one were to try and identify the symbols as they might refer to His first coming, His plan of restoration and salvation, you will find a very different set of interpretations that all come together and all will be addressed - even chapter 11 fits in perfectly with this.
If I were to comment on who the clay is or the 10 toes or many other symbols used in Daniel - especially from chapter 7 to 12, they would not make any sense to you. Because one would not see the flow, the movements in the propheices and events that begin in chapter 1 and stay consitent and build upon one another through to chapter 12. They would have no support behind them... simply a single verse with a single new interpretation that does not fit with any of "today's accepted interpretations."
But I will tell you the clay does represent the Jewish nation that is held captive at the time of the arrival of the Messiah. Even this one comment / interpertation seems out of place to you ... But God is giving us Daniel to reveal His plan of restoration and salvation of His people and His city that was completely destroyed by Babylon. He takes us from the 70 years in captivity to the 490 years prophecy that culminates in His first coming.
If you have an interest you can go onto Amazon and type in ISBN # 9798218637231 New Interpretations, Book of Daniel, Can you see me now... 3rd edition. You can purchase it if you would like. If you would like me to send you a free author's copy, please PM me. Best wishes always.
Hello,
Until we are able to identify the true entity type of the beasts, including the Little Horn, we will always be floundering in the murky waters of others' misunderstanding without actually having any true understanding at all.
Paul in Ep 6:12 tells us what the entity of the beasts is when he wrote Ep 6:12: -
The entity type Paul was referring to are fallen heavenly spiritual hosts who fell with Satan when he revolted against God. The entity type of the evil spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms are the angels that rebelled with Satan.
The other issue is wrongly linking the Daniel 2 statue prophecy with the Daniel 7 beast prophecies.
The Daniel 2 statue prophecy is all about the nations that will hold dominion over the Land of Babylon. Also, Jeremaih in Jer 50 also prophesised against the Land of Babylon and the nations that would have impact upon the land of Babylon during this present time.
Jeremaih informed us that the Land of Babylon would be devastated and made desolate for a period of some 2,000 years from around the year 120 BC some 60 years before the Roman Empire held any dominion over the lands in and around the Land of Babylon without being able to establish any dominion over the Land of Babylon itself. Rev 16:17-21 informs us that the Land Babylon would be remembered once more by God to receive the cup of His wrath during the time that the 7th Bowl Judgement play out during the 20th century. In 1926 AD a nation, now known as Iraq, was established to have dominion over the Land of Babylon and it was not the Roman Empire.
Jer 50 then goes on to tell us at a second king from the north, i.e. the President of the USA, would lead a coalition of nation to invade the Land of Babylon, i.e. Iraq, in an attempt to heal the land of Babylon instead of destroying the people in the land of Babylon/Iraq. Since each toe has two properties, i.e. iron and clay, the coalition that invaded Iraq in 2003 AD drew their forces from 20 nations.
Now the ten horns of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 represent ten religions which end up as seven horns/hills which the dragon drapes itself across in Rev 17.
Since over 500 years have passed from the time of the reformation fathers and more of God's end time plans have been revealed to us we need to move past the doctrine of the reformation fathers into what has been revealed since.
The greatest hinderance to our understanding of the End Times is to let go of what past theologians have written and to begin to understand what God's written words actually state.
There are too many on this forum who have not let go of the false understanding of our forefathers so that we can come to a different understanding of what is actually happening today.
Shalom
Until we are able to identify the true entity type of the beasts, including the Little Horn, we will always be floundering in the murky waters of others' misunderstanding without actually having any true understanding at all.
Paul in Ep 6:12 tells us what the entity of the beasts is when he wrote Ep 6:12: -
The entity type Paul was referring to are fallen heavenly spiritual hosts who fell with Satan when he revolted against God. The entity type of the evil spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms are the angels that rebelled with Satan.
The other issue is wrongly linking the Daniel 2 statue prophecy with the Daniel 7 beast prophecies.
The Daniel 2 statue prophecy is all about the nations that will hold dominion over the Land of Babylon. Also, Jeremaih in Jer 50 also prophesised against the Land of Babylon and the nations that would have impact upon the land of Babylon during this present time.
Jeremaih informed us that the Land of Babylon would be devastated and made desolate for a period of some 2,000 years from around the year 120 BC some 60 years before the Roman Empire held any dominion over the lands in and around the Land of Babylon without being able to establish any dominion over the Land of Babylon itself. Rev 16:17-21 informs us that the Land Babylon would be remembered once more by God to receive the cup of His wrath during the time that the 7th Bowl Judgement play out during the 20th century. In 1926 AD a nation, now known as Iraq, was established to have dominion over the Land of Babylon and it was not the Roman Empire.
Jer 50 then goes on to tell us at a second king from the north, i.e. the President of the USA, would lead a coalition of nation to invade the Land of Babylon, i.e. Iraq, in an attempt to heal the land of Babylon instead of destroying the people in the land of Babylon/Iraq. Since each toe has two properties, i.e. iron and clay, the coalition that invaded Iraq in 2003 AD drew their forces from 20 nations.
Now the ten horns of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 represent ten religions which end up as seven horns/hills which the dragon drapes itself across in Rev 17.
Since over 500 years have passed from the time of the reformation fathers and more of God's end time plans have been revealed to us we need to move past the doctrine of the reformation fathers into what has been revealed since.
The greatest hinderance to our understanding of the End Times is to let go of what past theologians have written and to begin to understand what God's written words actually state.
There are too many on this forum who have not let go of the false understanding of our forefathers so that we can come to a different understanding of what is actually happening today.
Shalom
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
So much of the thinking on the 10 toes seems weird. Much of it doesn't emanate from scripture as it should.
Psalm 83 describes the 10 tribes, and they include Assyria, which is a requirement, as the king of Assyria, is the Antichrist. We also never seem to relate that all mentions of the final war is Israel against the surrounding nations, who just happen to be Islamic. If the final war is islam v Isreal then Dan 2.44 must include islam and israel. Iron and clay. Dan 7.19+ must include islam and Israel. Dan 8.22+ must include Islam and Israel. As does Ezek 38,39, Zech 12 to 14, Rev 13,16 and the final return of the Lord in Rev 19.11+
All israel, all Islamic.
Even Genesis tells us this the decendants of Isaac and Jacob, who will they be fighting, their own brothers Ishmael, Esau, Gen 16.11,12, Gen 25.23, Gen 27.39,40.
It can only be the older serving the younger, until the older throws off Israel's yoke.
Interesting observation: the empires of Dan 2, are the same empires in history, that are once again raising their heads in the year 2000+, as they did those thousands of years ago. Coincidence? I think not. Could Dan 2 be happening again?Hello,
Until we are able to identify the true entity type of the beasts, including the Little Horn, we will always be floundering in the murky waters of others' misunderstanding without actually having any true understanding at all.
Paul in Ep 6:12 tells us what the entity of the beasts is when he wrote Ep 6:12: -
View attachment 72516
The entity type Paul was referring to are fallen heavenly spiritual hosts who fell with Satan when he revolted against God. The entity type of the evil spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms are the angels that rebelled with Satan.
The other issue is wrongly linking the Daniel 2 statue prophecy with the Daniel 7 beast prophecies.
The Daniel 2 statue prophecy is all about the nations that will hold dominion over the Land of Babylon. Also, Jeremaih in Jer 50 also prophesised against the Land of Babylon and the nations that would have impact upon the land of Babylon during this present time.
Jeremaih informed us that the Land of Babylon would be devastated and made desolate for a period of some 2,000 years from around the year 120 BC some 60 years before the Roman Empire held any dominion over the lands in and around the Land of Babylon without being able to establish any dominion over the Land of Babylon itself. Rev 16:17-21 informs us that the Land Babylon would be remembered once more by God to receive the cup of His wrath during the time that the 7th Bowl Judgement play out during the 20th century. In 1926 AD a nation, now known as Iraq, was established to have dominion over the Land of Babylon and it was not the Roman Empire.
Jer 50 then goes on to tell us at a second king from the north, i.e. the President of the USA, would lead a coalition of nation to invade the Land of Babylon, i.e. Iraq, in an attempt to heal the land of Babylon instead of destroying the people in the land of Babylon/Iraq. Since each toe has two properties, i.e. iron and clay, the coalition that invaded Iraq in 2003 AD drew their forces from 20 nations.
Now the ten horns of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 represent ten religions which end up as seven horns/hills which the dragon drapes itself across in Rev 17.
Since over 500 years have passed from the time of the reformation fathers and more of God's end time plans have been revealed to us we need to move past the doctrine of the reformation fathers into what has been revealed since.
The greatest hinderance to our understanding of the End Times is to let go of what past theologians have written and to begin to understand what God's written words actually state.
There are too many on this forum who have not let go of the false understanding of our forefathers so that we can come to a different understanding of what is actually happening today.
Shalom
Iraq, once the jewel of the middle east until Saddams defeat, replaced by Iran, whose legs have been taken out from under them, Javan (Turkey) is now the rising star or prominent horn.Dan 8.8. And in the midst of this Syria has risen again.
Dan 8.8, 22 mentions the four horns to rise, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Syria followed by the 10 horns, with the King of Syria, defeating 3 horns for ultimate leadership.
Maybe history isn't as important anymore, and what Gods saying to us now is!
Without wanting to offend you, you are all over the place here. But that is not uncommon because Daniel is clearly the most difficult and enigmatic book in the bible. Today's accepted interpretations focus on the secular elements in Daniel - the 4 kingdoms, the 10 horns, those things that we expect to find in our history books. But God is not recounting our historical events. He is providing us His plan of restoration ande salvation for His people and His city and in the broader sense the salvation of mankind. Thus, He is telling us these revelations through the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that He has decided to call out from the sea. Certainly, there are thousands of kingdoms that will come upon the earth after the cross but they have no place in His plan of salvation. He is placing His prophecies only within these 4 kingdoms and clearly tells us the 4th kingdom will continue until the end of time. I will gladly send you a free copy of my commentary for you to consider - send me a note in a PM... the questions you raise here cannot be addressed in such a forum - it would take more years than we have left... but I have already completed a verse by verse commentary on Daniel. It will certainly answer all of your questions and it will be up to you whether you accept them.
In Daniel 2, God identified the 4 metal kingdoms in His plan of salvation and restoration for His people and mankind. The four kingdoms are quite easily identified (IMO), as:
1) Gold - Babylon,
2) Silver - Medes- Persia,
3) Bronze - Greece,
4) Iron - Rome
Now, we easily can see that God's 4 kingdoms are all constructer of a different metal type.
But within the 4th iron kingdom of Rome, He places a non-metallic element within the feet of this kingdom - clay. And certainly, we all know that clay and any metal does not combine.
In the beginning of chapter 7, God gives us a new set of symbols for these same 4 kingdoms, but now we notice there has been some significant changes, apart from the different symbol, to the iron kingdom. Now, we see an unidentifiable 4th beast kingdom with 10 horns coming out of it. No more mention of the clay and no more mention of the 10 toes.
So what happend to the 10 toes?
1. But is it Rome? Babylon, Mede-Persia, and Javan are confirmed through other scriptures, but the fourth kingdom isnt.
It may someone other than Rome.
2. Clay - Lam 4.2, Isaiah 64.8, Jer Chapter 18, 19, and Ezekiel 4.1-3, all suggest who the clay could be.
Which makes sense, as every scripture of the final battle ( Rev 16, Ezekiel 38,39, Psalm 83, Zech 12 to 14) suggests Israel will be involved against all the nations surrounding them. And who are those nations? Nations of the Islamic faith, the descendants of Ishmael and Esau.
And the reason clay doesn't mix with iron, maybe a treaty between Israel and Islamic nations, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united.
3. The 10 toes will likely be the 10 nations of Psalm 83, which include Assyria, which then allows the king of Assyria to be enabled as the AC. In Rev 13,17 the 10 nations becomes seven, due to the subduing of Moab, Edom and Ammon, (also part of Psalm 83), and delivered in Dan 11.41, due to their association with Lots land, Deut 2.
After the four heads of Dan 7.6 comes the fourth beast - the beast with ten horns - and from one of those (Assyria) comes another horn, the AC. Dan 7.8.
1) Gold - Babylon,
2) Silver - Medes- Persia,
3) Bronze - Greece,
4) Iron - Rome
Now, we easily can see that God's 4 kingdoms are all constructer of a different metal type.
But within the 4th iron kingdom of Rome, He places a non-metallic element within the feet of this kingdom - clay. And certainly, we all know that clay and any metal does not combine.
In the beginning of chapter 7, God gives us a new set of symbols for these same 4 kingdoms, but now we notice there has been some significant changes, apart from the different symbol, to the iron kingdom. Now, we see an unidentifiable 4th beast kingdom with 10 horns coming out of it. No more mention of the clay and no more mention of the 10 toes.
So what happend to the 10 toes?
1. But is it Rome? Babylon, Mede-Persia, and Javan are confirmed through other scriptures, but the fourth kingdom isnt.
It may someone other than Rome.
2. Clay - Lam 4.2, Isaiah 64.8, Jer Chapter 18, 19, and Ezekiel 4.1-3, all suggest who the clay could be.
Which makes sense, as every scripture of the final battle ( Rev 16, Ezekiel 38,39, Psalm 83, Zech 12 to 14) suggests Israel will be involved against all the nations surrounding them. And who are those nations? Nations of the Islamic faith, the descendants of Ishmael and Esau.
And the reason clay doesn't mix with iron, maybe a treaty between Israel and Islamic nations, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united.
3. The 10 toes will likely be the 10 nations of Psalm 83, which include Assyria, which then allows the king of Assyria to be enabled as the AC. In Rev 13,17 the 10 nations becomes seven, due to the subduing of Moab, Edom and Ammon, (also part of Psalm 83), and delivered in Dan 11.41, due to their association with Lots land, Deut 2.
After the four heads of Dan 7.6 comes the fourth beast - the beast with ten horns - and from one of those (Assyria) comes another horn, the AC. Dan 7.8.
Does Scripture ever tell us how many toes there are? What if the image was that of a Giant with etc
Dan 2.42 suggests toes, Dan 7.7 tends to confirm 10.
If not convinced, look down and count your own!
Dan 2.42 suggests toes, Dan 7.7 tends to confirm 10.
If not convinced, look down and count your own!
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