Is it possible to lose salvation?

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LoveYeshua

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Oh you're a Paul only kinda guy.
To teach Salvation for TODAY ?
Yes, because that's EXACTLY why & what Christ selected & taught Paul to do.
If you believe I am wrong then please list the verses that after Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16 teach Matthew, Luke, John etc have the role of Apostle & Minister to the believers spoken of in Gal 3:28, 1 Cor12:13, Col 3:11.
Let Scripture do the talking for you :)
What about Peter was he not chosen by God to preach to the Gentiles?
 
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PinSeeker

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Yes...

you have never ever found a single verse to support your private view that infant baptism was ever taught in the bible. So it's obviously not what you and some others think it is, this is why private interpretation of the Bible, always leads to confusion and the creation of false doctrines.
In your opinion. Yeah, I get it.

I just pointed out that the writer of Colossians 2 was using circumcision in a metaphoric way to describe spiritual circumcision of the heart.
Okay, well, that's an erroneous opinion. We have established ~ whether you deny it or not ~ that circumcision was the Old Testament sign and seal of the covenant, and that baptism is the New Testament sign and seal of the covenant. The Lord commanded Abraham to give the covenant sign of circumcision to all the males in his household on the eighth day (see Genesis 17:11–14). Closely related to the covenant promise itself, the Lord calls the sign of circumcision “My covenant” (Genesis 17:10). And in Colossians 2:11 specifically, Paul says baptism is ~ IS ~ a circumcision. So it also ~ now, having replaced circumcision as such ~ is the sign and seal of God's covenant, and as such should be administered in the same way as circumcision was. The intimate similarity between circumcision and baptism is that baptism, as circumcision did, functions as both a sign and a seal of God’s new covenant... they both visibly symbolize our union with Christ in his death and resurrection, and when we believe, which in the case of infants then was probably years after the actual circumcision and now is probably years after the actual baptism ~ it becomes a means by which God communicates His grace, allowing us to participate in the promises of salvation throughout our lives. Now don't misunderstand... belief was not a prerequisite for circumcision as is not now a prerequisite for baptism. But there you go; that should be plenty enough to convince you.

One more time: Through a symbolic washing with water, the Lord signifies and seals the covenant promises to forgive, cleanse, and renew His covenant people. The meaning of baptism is rooted in the meaning of the covenant signs in the Old Testament. In the new covenant, baptism has replaced the old covenant sign of circumcision. Both sacraments signified membership in the visible church. Both point to the promise of redemption through the shed blood of Jesus.


I'm not interested in any vows made by other people,
That's too bad...

...sprinkling babies or infants is a futile exercise because you don't know if those children are of the devil or of God.
Well, they're probably still "children of the devil," but the promise is that ~ in the case of babies ~ someday they will no longer be, that they will be children of the living God, and that's the point. So no, it's far from a "futile exercise." The promise is for us and all our children.

So how does baptising the devils children bring glory to God???
Believing that God will do what He has promised to do is not glorifying God? Hmmmm...

Baptism is a Church ordinance, it's not a sacrament at all.
In your opinion. I understand. But, even as highly intelligent as you are, CS, you are mistaken in that.

I don't understand why you don't believe that born again Christians are not transformed on the inside.
I do. I never even insinuated otherwise. Yeah, I mean, transformed... and being transformed at the same time. We'll not be fully transformed... conformed to the image of Christ, of course, until He returns. But sure. But it's the baptism of the Holy Spirit that begins this transformation. The baptism that we administer, by water, like circumcision of the Old Testament, is an outward sign and seal of God's promise to... well, make this transformation happen.

The covenant God made with individuals, has no relevance to me.
Well, it does... <smile> I mean, we are all one in Christ Jesus after all...

That was between God and the individual in question.
Yes... but... <smile> By extension, those covenants are with and for us, too... <smile>

This doesn't mean I can't learn anything from it...
Right, you can, but far more than you suppose, apparently...

it just means that it doesn't effect me or my salvation.
Ohhhhhhhh. Well. Yes it does, in... many ways... <smile> Cheers, my friend.

giphy.gif


Grace and peace to you.
 
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shepherdsword

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Jesus had a lot to say about and this taught that the path to eternal life is narrow and that few find it. In Matthew 7:13-14, He said;

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
This shows that salvation is not guaranteed for everyone, and only those who stay faithful and follow His teachings will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.


Jesus also warned that some would hear the word and believe for a while, but eventually fall away. In the Parable of the Sower, He explained;

"But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles." (Matthew 13:20-21).​
This illustrates that some will start their walk with God but will not persevere when faced with trials or temptations.

In John 15:6, Jesus made it even clearer, saying;

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
Here, Jesus compares Himself to a vine and believers as branches. A branch must remain connected to the vine to stay alive and bear fruit. If a person disconnects from Christ through disobedience or unbelief, they wither spiritually and face eternal judgment.


The original apostles also confirmed this truth. Peter warned in 2 Peter 2:20-21;

"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them."
This shows that a person who was once saved and returns to sin is in a worse condition than before they knew the truth.​



James also affirmed this truth when he said;

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
This verse reveals that a believer can wander away from the truth and face spiritual death unless they repent and return to God.

The Bible does provide examples of those who lost their salvation. Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve apostles chosen by Jesus, yet he betrayed the Lord for thirty pieces of silver. Jesus Himself said about Judas;

"It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matthew 26:24).​
This shows that Judas was once in the faith but fell away and was lost.

Another example is Balaam, a prophet who once heard from God but later led Israel into sin for personal gain. Peter referred to him, saying,

"They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor." (2 Peter 2:15). King Saul is yet another example; he was chosen and anointed by God but later disobeyed and rebelled, and the Spirit of God departed from him (1 Samuel 16:14)​

Jesus' words make it clear that salvation is not a one-time event but requires endurance and faithfulness until the end. As He said in Matthew 24:13, "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Therefore, those who abide in Christ, obey His commandments, and remain faithful will receive eternal life. However, those who turn away from Him and return to sin risk losing their salvation and facing eternal separation from God: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."Rev 14:12

Blessings.
I believe in eternal security. I just don't believe in UNCONDITIONAL eternal security. You laid out some good conditions. Calvinists are always quoting this passage as a defense:

Jn 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


However, they never cite the conditions
1)They hear his voice
2)He knows them
3)They follow him (greek verb for "follow" is active, present tense as in they are continuously following him)

I suggest that if those three conditions are not met then they can perish.
 

PinSeeker

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I believe in eternal security.
Great!

I just don't believe in UNCONDITIONAL eternal security.
I ~ as a... five-point Calvinist... <smile> ...believe exactly the same thing. But then the question is, Who is the one Who ensures, by His power and His good work in us, that we meet those conditions? <smile> Among other passages, remember 1 Peter 1:5, that we "by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," and Jude 24-25, "...to Him Who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever." This is what Calvinists would call "perseverance of the saints." We persevere, but it is God at work in us... by His Holy Spirit, of course... that gives us the... strength.. to do so. The unconditional part is regarding God's election of His saints unto salvation, which, as He Himself says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion," and Paul then says, "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:14-18).

Calvinists are always quoting this passage as a defense:

Jn 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Well, sure, among many others... <smile>

However, they never cite the conditions
1)They hear his voice
2)He knows them
3)They follow him (greek verb for "follow" is active, present tense as in they are continuously following him)

I suggest that if those three conditions are not met then they can perish.
Well, right, but:
  • number 1 is ensured by God ~ "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped..." (Isaiah 35:5); Jesus did, after all, heal several deaf folks... <smile>
  • number 2 is an action of God ~ 'to know' here is in the sense of to love, and "(w)e love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19)...
  • and number three is also ensured by God ~ "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
Grace and peace to you, SW.
 

shepherdsword

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Great!


I ~ as a... five-point Calvinist... <smile> ...believe exactly the same thing. But then the question is, Who is the one Who ensures, by His power and His good work in us, that we meet those conditions? <smile> Among other passages, remember 1 Peter 1:5, that we "by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," and Jude 24-25, "...to Him Who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever." This is what Calvinists would call "perseverance of the saints." We persevere, but it is God at work in us... by His Holy Spirit, of course... that gives us the... strength.. to do so. The unconditional part is regarding God's election of His saints unto salvation, which, as He Himself says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion," and Paul then says, "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:14-18).
Let's look at more

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Col 1:22-24 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,

2 Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Jas 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Well, sure, among many others... <smile>


Well, right, but:
  • number 1 is ensured by God ~ "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped..." (Isaiah 35:5); Jesus did, after all, heal several deaf folks... <smile>
It's not always ensured:

Isa 42:18-20 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.


  • number 2 is an action of God ~ 'to know' here is in the sense of to love, and "(w)e love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19)...
Let's look at a condition of him knowing us:

Mt 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


  • and number three is also ensured by God ~ "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

You left out the verse before it:

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

The greek word for "work" in the passage is "κατεργάζομαι (katergazomai)" and it is in the Middle voice. This means both the subject and the predicate participate in the action.

In other words: 2 Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Also, please note that in Jn 10:27 the word "follow" is in the present active voice and denotes continuous following that is the responsibility of the one following. If it was all God's responsibility as Calvinists claim it would be in the passive voice.


Grace and peace to you, SW.
And you as well <smile>
 

LoveYeshua

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I believe in eternal security. I just don't believe in UNCONDITIONAL eternal security. You laid out some good conditions. Calvinists are always quoting this passage as a defense:

Jn 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


However, they never cite the conditions
1)They hear his voice
2)He knows them
3)They follow him (greek verb for "follow" is active, present tense as in they are continuously following him)

I suggest that if those three conditions are not met then they can perish.
Absolutely agree!
 

rvmb

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What the hell are you pushing here, those verses you tried to twist were not directed at (unconverted sinners). You're obviously under strong delusion, since you don't even know the difference between (born again Christians, Gods children) and the reprobate (children of the devil).

You have foolishly bundled Gods children and the children of the devil together as if we're all the same. Your theology is an abomination in my sight (and I'm a fallen sinner), let alone how offensive it is in Gods sight.
Do you claim you no longer sin ?
 

rvmb

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What about Peter was he not chosen by God to preach to the Gentiles?
Before Paul was commissioned, YES
That role then became the domain of Paul Gal 2:9, Acts 15:6-25, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16.
If you disagree then please list the verses you rely on.
 

walter

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What's more important, something You or I explain, or something Jesus and the Apostles explain?
Isn't Jesus words Paramount?

- If you could please state your belief.
- Then list the scriptures that explain it.

Focusing on the "context in scripture", not so much our Viewpoints or Explanations.
 
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rvmb

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What's more important, something You or I explain, or something Jesus and the Apostles explain?

- If you could please state your belief.
- Then list the scriptures that explain it.

Focusing on the "context in scripture", not so much our Viewpoints or Explanations.
Lose salvation
It's a simple question :)
Where does our Apostle (Rom 11:13) & Minister (Rom 15:16) teach that a believer today can become UNsaved or UNsealed ?
 

Nancy

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This is pretty clear (to myself) that Paul thought it was possible to lose salvation.

1 Corinthians 9:27
"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

I am sorry. I am off topic like many other posts here LoveYeshua :doldrums:
 
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rvmb

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This is pretty clear (to myself) that Paul thought it was possible to lose salvation.

1 Corinthians 9:27
"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
That's were Paul raises concerns about losing his right to PREACH not losing salvation.
Please list the Paul verses that teach a believer can become UNsaved or UNsealed :)
 

Nancy

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That's were Paul raises concerns about losing his right to PREACH not losing salvation.
Please list the Paul verses that teach a believer can become UNsaved or UNsealed :)
Mmm. That's reaching IMO :IDK:


1 Corinthians 9:27
"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Paul might still have been saved though, granted. But he would have been preaching in vain, he would have been called a hypocrite. He might have missed out on eternal gifts...?

Of course, one would have to research the word "castaway".

He "... kept under his body..." (disciplined) so he too would not be tempted to be swept up in sin again. This could be interpreted in different ways.
Well, this is how I have seen this verse.
Thanks!
 

rvmb

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Mmm. That's reaching IMO :IDK:


1 Corinthians 9:27
"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Paul might still have been saved though, granted. But he would have been preaching in vain, he would have been called a hypocrite. He might have missed out on eternal gifts...?

Of course, one would have to research the word "castaway".

He "... kept under his body..." (disciplined) so he too would not be tempted to be swept up in sin again. This could be interpreted in different ways.
Well, this is how I have seen this verse.
Thanks!
Paul might still have been saved though, granted.
Please list the verses where Paul is concerned about losing his salvation :)
---
Eph 1:13, 1 Cor 15:1-4 teaches how we are saved today
Titu 3:5, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1 teaches the conditions.
 

walter

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Lose salvation
It's a simple question :)
Where does our Apostle (Rom 11:13) & Minister (Rom 15:16) teach that a believer today can become UNsaved or UNsealed ?
Romans 11:13
New King James Version
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

Romans 15:16
New King James Version
that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Which words are you referring to, in these two scriptures?

I do agree with you that there is scriptures that teach us the believer today can become unsaved.
 

rvmb

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Romans 11:13
New King James Version
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

Romans 15:16
New King James Version
that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Which words are you referring to, in these two scriptures?

I do agree with you that there is scriptures that teach us the believer today can become unsaved.
Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16 - Paul is Apostle & Minister to the Gentiles
I do agree with you that there is scriptures that teach us the believer today can become unsaved.
Please list the verses where Paul teaches he was worried about losing his salvation
 
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