Ammillennialism's illegitimate redefining and switching around of the meaning of Greek words and biblical concepts

[WPM]

The amillennial view does not stand the test of either the Scriptures or reality.​

• How can anyone truly believe that we are currently living in the Millennium? Society is disintegrating before our eyes, and the Bible says it will get worse the closer we come to the Lord’s return (2 Timothy 1-5).

Those who have indoctrinated you have sold you a false bill of goods. Where does it teach millennial bliss in your only proof text Rev 20?

[*]How can anyone truly believe that Satan is bound today? The Bible says “the whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19).

You have been given the Scriptures and you careful duck around them as Premils do. That is because Scripture is Premils greatest enemy on this subject.

[*]How can anyone truly believe that the Church is reigning with Christ over the nations? Try telling that to persecuted and suffering Christians all over the world.

We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now. The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now. After we enter into this resurrection we enter into our eternal reign in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense). We reign in life and we reign in death. We reign in time and we reign in eternity.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. Such was secured through Christ’s victorious work at Calvary. There, Christ defeated every enemy of righteousness – including sin, death, the grave, hell, Satan, sickness, the demonic realm, and so on. The people of God, being “in Christ,” have therefore entered into that victory and have been given kingdom authority over the demonic realm through the blood of Jesus when moving in the Spirit and in the will of God. In fact, the word "shall" in the King James Version doesn’t actually appear in the original but is added by the translators.

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth” (v. 9).

There is little doubt this scene is current and relates to a time-period preceding the second coming of the Lord. Moreover, no reasonable Bible student would surely deny that the reading relates to anything other than the redeemed situated in heaven. Here, the disembodied spirits of the elect in heaven are seen reigning as kings and priests now. Significantly, and like Revelation 20:4, the dead in Christ in heaven are described (in relation to their kingship and priesthood) as “hast made” – proving this is speaking of the current fulfilment of the same. The aorist active indicative demonstrates that this is ongoing in this intra-Advent period.

John sees those that have been saved in heaven and explains how they continue in their kingly/priestly position. Here we see the two spiritual offices that believers (dead or alive) exercise and enjoy “in Christ.” They are kings and priests. The humble servant-hood of the true believer and his self-sacrificing walk is connected to his priestly position, whereas his reigning in spiritual power and authority is related to his kingly office.

This dual role of kingship and priesthood is not just restricted to the redeemed in heaven, or does it commence at entry into the heavenly shore, it begins upon this earth at the new birth. The family of God today are positionally reigning as kings and priest in both heaven and on earth. They perform such an awesome function in and through the person of Christ and His impeccable life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection. In fact, 1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifices and intercede for the people. We fulfill that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfill that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

We are presently a kingly priesthood. This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord.

[*]How could anyone truly believe God has no purpose left for the Jews? After 2,000 years of dispersion all over the world, they are being regathered to Israel in what Jeremiah calls a miracle greater than the deliverance from Egyptian captivity (Jeremiah 16:14-15).

What was the condition for a biblical return to the land?

Let’s stop playing games with God’s Word. Let’s allow it to mean what it says. Bible prophecy is really not hard to understand. It’s just hard to believe. If you will believe it, you will understand it.
​

Again, zero evidence. Just more noise.

 

[WPM]

So you DON'T know! = got it

Your avoidance reinforces the Amil thesis: Premils have no answer to the truth. All they have is avoidance and insults.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Also, i notice a very very sad behavior of many who will run and stick there head in the sand when shown God's words do not approve of doctrines that speak against His words.

Yes, I notice that with you. You like to talk about accepting God's word for what it says, but you don't do that when it comes to many scriptures, including these..

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Jesus spoke of one general resurrection hour/event that includes all of the dead, but you believe in two entirely separate resurrections of the dead separated by 1,000+ years.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Paul referred to the day of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him" as "the day of the Lord". He indicated that on that day, which will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night, "sudden destruction" will come upon those who are in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape". Instead of taking Paul's words to mean what they say, which is that none of those in spiritual darkness will escape on the day the Lord returns, you say some of them will somehow escape. When you read Peter's account of that event you should clearly see that it won't be possible for any of them to escape since fire will be coming down upon the entire earth on that day.

Why is it that you don't take scriptures like these to mean what they say (i.e. don't take them literally) while acting as if that is the key to understanding scripture, even in the highly symbolic book of Revelation?

 

[David in NJ]

Your avoidance reinforces the Amil thesis: Premils have no answer to the truth. All they have is avoidance and insults.

Not true

But i know it helps you fell better

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, I notice that with you. You like to talk about accepting God's word for what it says, but you don't do that when it comes to many scriptures, including these..

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Jesus spoke of one general resurrection hour/event that includes all of the dead, but you believe in two entirely separate resurrections of the dead separated by 1,000+ years.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Paul referred to the day of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him" as "the day of the Lord". He indicated that on that day, which will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night, "sudden destruction" will come upon those who are in spiritual darkness from which "they shall not escape". Instead of taking Paul's words to mean what they say, which is that none of those in spiritual darkness will escape on the day the Lord returns, you say some of them will somehow escape. When you read Peter's account of that event you should clearly see that it won't be possible for any of them to escape since fire will be coming down upon the entire earth on that day.

Why is it that you don't take scriptures like these to mean what they say (i.e. don't take them literally) while acting as if that is the key to understanding scripture, even in the highly symbolic book of Revelation?

Keep praying and studying and praying

God's words can be trusted
man's words are busted
Saints who follow and trust
shelter against doctrinal gusts
Matthew 4:4 is a MUST

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So who then are the billions of wicked that populate your future earth?

Great question. As a post-trib, he knows that all believers will be changed to put on bodily immortality when Jesus returns. And I would assume he would agree that the following will occur when Jesus returns.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Obviously, from a post-trib, premil perspective, they believe the mortals who will populate the earth when Jesus returns will be unbelievers since believers will all have put on bodily immortality at that point. So, do they think in the passage above that Paul is saying that Jesus will only take vengeance on some "who do not know God...and...who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" when He returns? They must believe that since they think many unbelievers will survive His return. But, I don't see where Paul even hinted at such a thing. He certainly didn't in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 either where he indicated that unbelievers will experience "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" when Jesus returns. Premils have to invent the idea that there will somehow be exceptions to what Paul taught in these passages. How interesting that they don't take these passages for what they say literally when they talk so much about the need to read scripture for what it says literally.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Keep praying and studying and praying

God's words can be trusted
man's words are busted
Saints who follow and trust
shelter against doctrinal gusts
Matthew 4:4 is a MUST

Weak response that just proves what I'm saying even further. Premils like you are not willing to actually address any arguments made against their view. What is the reason you are unwilling to do that? You know you can't be expected to be taken seriously when you avoid addressing our arguments, right? I can only assume this is an admission that you CAN'T address my arguments since you didn't even attempt to do so. Your vague responses that don't include any coherent arguments made from scripture do nothing to support your claims.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

yo don't know?

LOL! You can't even answer simple questions. Instead, you respond childishly like this. Do you want to be taken seriously or not? If you do, then explain to us what would make an unbeliever qualified to survive Christ's return rather than being destroyed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

You believe that some "who do not know God, and...who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" will survive His return. So, tell me what the difference is between the unbelievers who you think will survive His return and those who are destroyed when He returns. If you actually want to be taken seriously and want people to see how and why you believe what you do, you should be willing to answer simple questions like this.

 

[David in NJ]

Weak response that just proves what I'm saying even further. Premils like you are not willing to actually address any arguments made against their view. What is the reason you are unwilling to do that? You know you can't be expected to be taken seriously when you avoid addressing our arguments, right? I can only assume this is an admission that you CAN'T address my arguments since you didn't even attempt to do so. Your vague responses that don't include any coherent arguments made from scripture do nothing to support your claims.

i'm not a "premillenialist"

Mathew four four is the Door
Christ Says we must make Sure
Do not doubt for soon there will be a Shout
Noah entered the Ark while God was on the Lookout

Stay busy in the Word
Believe all that you have Heard
not from man who have their heads in the sand
doctrines of men, stinks like a turd

Listen to the Voice of God's Choice

Pray for the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth
HE is Special, God's Holy Sluth
Be forewarned of satan's evil plan
that devil wants to keep your head in the sand

Holy Spirit gives us Power to make a Stand
HE is the Sluth of Truth
If you trust Him, you'll SEE God's Plan

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

i'm not a "premillenialist"

Yes, you are. A premillennialist is someone who believes that the thousand years occur after Jesus returns and that is what you believe.

Let me know if you ever want to be taken seriously by actually making coherent arguments using scripture. Until then, I can see that trying to get you to address my arguments is futile. You have no interest in being able to actually support your claims with scripture or to explain how your premillennial view fits with certain scripture that you either completely ignore, twist or are somehow unaware of.

 

[Zao is life]

I agree we should not go beyond what is written, and the bible was speaking of deeper underlying spiritual issues of the heart. But they did have the wrong end of the stick and were expecting an earthly king who would rule an earthly kingdom, because of not understanding the allegories/types/shadows of OT scripture. Everything in new testament scripture exhorts and admonishes us to have our eyes, thoughts, hopes and affections above and not below, on the unseen, not on the seen.....looking for a new heavens and new earth because this one will be "dissolved". I'm concerned that looking for and expecting an earthly reign is going to cause people to have false hopes and lead them to a false messiah, both Jews and Christians.

I fully understand what you are saying about looking for an earthly reign. I'm one of only two people who posts in these forums who cannot truly be called Premillnnial, nor Amillennial, nor Post millennial (although the other person has said I still fall under Premil)..

To shorten it, comparing scripture with scripture I have seen statements by Jesus, by Paul, by Peter, and in the Revelation, pointing unambiguously to a new heavens and new earth that commences when Christ returns - but the same goes for Revelation 20's thousand years being a literal period commencing at the same time - and that confuses most, of course, and makes some think I've lost it - so though I have posted about it, I don't expect anyone will understand what I believe scripture is telling us, or why.

It is nice when people disagree with me without going to war with name-calling and insults leveled either directly or subtly though. Truly what comes out of some of the people's mouths who post in these forums is like sulfur.

It actually involves a good few other subjects which I believe have been misunderstood for many hundreds of years - including the subject of the OP of this thread - but it's way too much to go into. Especially on a Thursday

I also know that Jesus has far more important priorities than understanding prophecy - priorities which I personalize like what Paul tells us is the will of God for us in 1 Thessalonians 4:3-9.

Which is why I've been sorry I posted in these forums and wished I had not - like this thread. Wish I had not even posted it. Hopefully I'll be able to withdraw myself for a few months again soon as I have done in the past. Hopefully the next time I won't ever even look at the forums ever again, so as not to be tempted to say something.

God bless you and thank you for disagreeing respectfully where you disagree.

 

[Zao is life]

Amen.


Yes, I still can't parse everything In Rev either, by far. But I do believe by grace that "to the Jew first and then to the Gentile" is a principle. The colours of purple and scarlet pertain to the OT priesthood as well as to the Catholic Church.. And Rome's mass is a copy of OT temple worship...priests, robes, incense, bells, altar, liturgies, rites/rituals etc. I have heard it said that the apostate priesthood of the first century taught a lot of their Babylon occult knowledge to Rome....there was a kind of intermingling of Israel with Rome due to the occupation. Same Babylon spirit, gone to dwell in a different "body" (Rome) when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. Rome (Catholicism) and Jerusalem (Talmudic Judaism) have a lot in common.

I agree 100% with what you say above. That's why I see with dismay how too many Christians who think "1st century Jews bad" can't see that some things that applied to them when Jesus castigated them, applies to the church equally as much.

 

[Zao is life]

i'm not a "premillenialist"

Mathew four four is the Door
Christ Says we must make Sure
Do not doubt for soon there will be a Shout
Noah entered the Ark while God was on the Lookout

Stay busy in the Word
Believe all that you have Heard
not from man who have their heads in the sand
doctrines of men, stinks like a turd

Listen to the Voice of God's Choice

Pray for the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth
HE is Special, God's Holy Sluth
Be forewarned of satan's evil plan
that devil wants to keep your head in the sand

Holy Spirit gives us Power to make a Stand
HE is the Sluth of Truth
If you trust Him, you'll SEE God's Plan

Yes! Except that I have no idea what sluth means. Only dictionary I found a meaning was Urban Dictionary and it doesn't have a good meaning.

 

[Zao is life]

Combine the Scriptures i gave you with the ones you posted and you have the WHOLE TRUTH

Leave any scriptures out and you have only Partial Truth.

Matthew 4:4 = "‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Do yo not SEE the THREE who are Echad Elohim from Genesis and the Gospel???

How does it come about that the human spirit has life? Does it give itself life?

Answer the question and you will have the whole truth.

 

[claninja]

Here's a comprehensive list of all New Testament verses using the word zao. Tell me which ones are speaking figuratively about physical life (or referring to humans who are not literally physically alive) (aside from Revelation 20:4, because you have already answered that one).

Appealing to Thayer's, the lexicon has zao meaning spiritual life in revelation 3:1

• "thou art said to have life (i. e. vigorous spiritual life bringing forth good fruit) and (yet) thou art dead (ethically), Revelation 3:1."

But I don't think the word zao means spiritual life in revelation 20:4. I think the word refers to living again as a result of the bodily resurrection because the context talks about those that had been beheaded, living again. From a surface level reading without theological interpretation, the story presented in the vision seems to pretty much directly talk about the dead martyrs coming back to life to reign with Christ.

 

[Zao is life]

So much of what happened to Israel and was prophesied is happening to the church. Israel was our ensample. I think we agree on that if my memory serves.

Yes, they have come back to the Land, for God's purposes. I hope Israel will repent on a national level, but I just am not sure if that is what scripture is saying. Isaiah cried, only a remnant will be saved. In any case, whether that happens in the end or not, it changes nothing about the need to evangelize...that is the only way anyone is going to be saved. Hebrew roots movement is way off course and distracted and unequally yoked with unbelieving Israel. Unbelieving Israel is influencing Hebrew roots people, rather than the other way around.....is this going to lead to Temple worship and a false messiah...Hebrew roots folks are enamoured with the idea of a new Temple.

I agree. CBN's news reader said the other day that if we are Christians then we "should be" Christian Zionists. Well Christian Zionists should have Jesus on the throne in Zion and should gratefully receive the covenant God made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the blood of the Messiah (Jeremiah 31:31-34). The Zionism that established the modern state of Israel does neither - and God has been allowing its enemies to place them in - now a permanent - existential battle which has produced wars on all fronts.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, you are. A premillennialist is someone who believes that the thousand years occur after Jesus returns and that is what you believe.

Let me know if you ever want to be taken seriously by actually making coherent arguments using scripture. Until then, I can see that trying to get you to address my arguments is futile. You have no interest in being able to actually support your claims with scripture or to explain how your premillennial view fits with certain scripture that you either completely ignore, twist or are somehow unaware of.

Uh-Oh = you made a mistake

GOD Says, 1,000 literal years = HE wrote it down for you to SEE

 

[Zao is life]

Appealing to Thayer's, the lexicon has zao meaning spiritual life in revelation 3:1

• "thou art said to have life (i. e. vigorous spiritual life bringing forth good fruit) and (yet) thou art dead (ethically), Revelation 3:1."

But I don't think the word zao means spiritual life in revelation 20:4. I think the word refers to living again as a result of the bodily resurrection because the context talks about those that had been beheaded, living again. From a surface level reading without theological interpretation, the story presented in the vision seems to pretty much directly talk about the dead martyrs coming back to life to reign with Christ.

Jesus was not speaking to people who were physically dead. He was speaking to people who were physically alive {zao] but did not have the indwelling of the Spirit of life [zoe] in them - hence, dead.

By implication some of the verses using the word zao are also referring to the life [zoe] of Christ, which is the source of living | being alive [zao] ("The just shall live [zao] by faith")

The pattern of how the word zao is used in the New Testament and what it means when it is used as compared with the pattern of how the word zoe is used and what it means when it is used can be ignored so as to interpret the above verse as you have chosen to interpret it.

I can't stop you - but I can stop debating it with you because we won't agree - which our past experience tells me would be wise.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes! Except that I have no idea what sluth means. Only dictionary I found a meaning was Urban Dictionary and it doesn't have a good meaning.

Sluth = Detective

 

[WPM]

Weak response that just proves what I'm saying even further. Premils like you are not willing to actually address any arguments made against their view. What is the reason you are unwilling to do that? You know you can't be expected to be taken seriously when you avoid addressing our arguments, right? I can only assume this is an admission that you CAN'T address my arguments since you didn't even attempt to do so. Your vague responses that don't include any coherent arguments made from scripture do nothing to support your claims.

What what can they say? Their position has been shown repeatedly to be untenable. That is why they are so sheepish to engage.