Revelation 20: 5&6

[Luther7]

The sea gave up her dead.
The dead in Christ are raised from the dead.

Two separate resurrections.

If you can go against that, let me know.

Yes. If you read from Revelation 20:11-15, you will see " books" opened for the unsaved, and then "another book was opened, which is the book of life". So everyone is being judged at the same time. The last verse confirms this:

V.15: And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

The " sea giving up it's dead" is most likely a reiteration of v.12. The " sea" seems to be a symbolical reference to the unsaved world. Can't be 100% on that without further study. In Revelation 13, Satan comes out of the " sea".
A "great millstone was cast into the sea" in Revelation 18 in reference to the judgment of Babylon. So it appears to have a negative connotation.

 

[Fred J]

Rev 14
Mt zion in heaven.
Hard to wiggle out of that.

Hello little kid, you've got to grow up and stop reasoning like a kid based on one's imaginary.

Verse 1, John sees the Lamb stood on the mount Zion with the 144,000, having His FATHER's name written in their foreheads.

Verse 2, and John heard a voice from Heaven, and not a voice in Heaven, therefore John's 'vision' was at the very Mount Zion on earth.

 

[Fred J]

Fred, grace and peace to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is a "true Israel," clearly, in God's Word, although those exact words don't appear.

Am humbled by your greeting, likewise to you in Jesus name. let's listen and pay attention to the Holy Ghost of the Lord, thank you.

Those words don't appear in the scripture, then don't 'add' to GOD's word as false representation and that cause confusion.

'Israel' refers to the 'nation' of the 'Hebrews' or 'Jews', the descendant of Jacob who came out of bondage from Egypt and to their promise land.

They who went to Egypt including Jacob, 70-72 of them during Joseph the governor of Egypt, and came out to the promise land millions of them.

Paul says in Romans 2:28-29 the following:

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."​

Here Paul is addressing to the born again Gentile church, distinguishing between who's the born again 'true Jew' and the non born again bound to the Law, sin and death 'false Jew' in representation.

Yet they're both 'true Jews' belonging to 'Israel', and the church are not be deceived by such unsaved Jews.

And moreover to the 'yeast of the Pharisees' they represent, who in bondage abide merely to the letter of the Law.

And then in Romans 9:6-8, 23-24:

"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring...vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory⁠ ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."​

Here Paul starts by, not all descended from the nation of Israel belong to Israel (even they maybe 'proselytes').

Next, scripturally to those who belong to Israel and are the children of Abraham, are ones through Isaac to Jacob and to the 12 sons and their tribes.

Therefore, ones from Hagar's, Keturah's, Esau's or the proselytes' which are not the promised descendants, are considered as 'non true Jews'.

On the other hand, through 'Isaac' shall Abraham's 'offspring' shall be named, for that 'offspring' and His 'name' is 'Jesus Christ' from that linage.

And from this same 'offspring', 'Christ Jesus', spiritually descends the born again remnant of Jews and the full number of Gentiles, saved under the election of grace, and through faith.

So the New Covenant collaborates to that 'offspring' and His spiritual born again 'body' the 'church', and the Son of GOD.

No longer belonging to the linage of the 'flesh' and in 'bondage' any longer, which He have crucified the 'flesh' on the Cross.

Died, buried and rose again in the 'spiritual flesh' on the third day as the Son of GOD and the Head of His 'body' the 'church'.

While those of the carnal 'flesh' and of His fleshly linage, remain in bondage and unsaved still till that moment.

Since a blindness in part is happened to them and for GOD have conclude them all in unbelief, just for the sake of Gentiles' salvation.

For they who're in the 'flesh' and 'unsaved' shall remain until the full number of Gentiles have come in saved by the Gospel.

And by this, in the end 'all Israel' shall be saved likewise by the mercy of GOD which He had shown to the Gentiles.

It's the new foundation now, where that 'offspring' becomes the 'Chief Corner Stone' placed first to that foundation.

Apart from the other stones that follows which are of His 'body' the 'church', to build GOD's new eternal home for eternity.

And 'all Israel' the remaining who're not saved, in the end they shall be saved and are also the 'stones' that follows which'll complete this building for eternity.

And then in Romans 11:25-26:

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved..."​

So, there is a true Israel, so to speak, which is to say the Israel of God, and true Jews of God, who are not of the Israel of God merely because they are ethnically Jewish, but "children of the promise" through Isaac, and of all ethnicities ~ a great multitude from every tongue, tribe, and people group, and circumcised by the Holy Spirit. "True Israel" is to be understood as consisting of all those called by God and born again of the Spirit of God. This is the true household of God, His Israel.

Again, grace and peace to you.

Again, let GOD be the truth and man a 'liar' of made up speculation of a true Israel and false Israel, which is confusing from the Biblical narrative and perspective.

It was merely a distinguishment of Paul between a born again freed Jew from the Law and a non born again bound Jews to the Law.

As to a born again true Jew from a non born again false Jew, but apparently both are true Jews in the 'flesh'.

Whilst ones born in the 'flesh' by promise from Isaac from the ones who don't, until that final promised 'offspring' Jesus Christ.

There's only one 'Israel in the flesh' and who are from the linage of Jacob and the 12 sons, hence at present only a remnant of them through the Gospel are saved under the election of grace.

But eventually in the the end 'all Israel' in the 'flesh' who're not saved, shall be saved by GOD's mercy, and they'll be the 'finishing stones' to complete GOD's house for eternity.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

 

[Fred J]

@Fred J

And now back to Revelation 20 and the resurrection... <smile>

Yes, the mention in Revelation 20:4-5 of a first resurrection strongly implies that there is a second resurrection. The difference between the two is that... well:

First resurrection: Spiritual and individual in nature, when, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:5-6, we, each at our own appointed time, are "made... alive together with Christ⁠... and raised up with Him and seated... with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." This is how we, as John says in Revelation 20:6, are "blessed and holy" and "share in the first resurrection" and thus "the second death has no power" over us "but (are) priests of God and of Christ, and... reign with Him (during these) thousand years."

Second Resurrection: Physical and general in nature, when, as John says in John 5:28-29, happens at the "...hour... coming when all who are in the tombs hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." So, all will be physically resurrected after the close of these "thousand years," God's millennium, which is not literally one thousand earth years but the fullness of God's time in which, again, as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26, "the fullness of the Gentiles is brought into God's Israel and the partial hardening that is now on Israel is completely removed and thus all of God's Israel saved."

And after this second resurrection, the final Judgment will occur, which Jesus portrays graphically in Matthew 25:31-46... and John "shows us" in his vision in Revelation 20:11-15.

You see?

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

i disagree.

To me the 'first resurrection' is the 'rapture' of those dead in Christ and those who are living in Christ.

Who'll be taken up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and taken to Heaven, and who shall reign with Christ a thousand years.

On these 'second death' have no power over them, and 'the dead shall not rise again' until the thousand years are over.

After the thousand years are over, the 'second resurrection' takes place for the 'final judgement' of Lord Jesus Christ.

And on them the 'second death' have power because scripturally there are those resurrect unto life and there are those resurrect unto damnation.

For ones resurrect in damnation, 'second death' have power over them to hold them in the lake of fire for eternity.

 

[PinSeeker]

Those words don't appear in the scripture, then don't 'add' to GOD's word as false representation and that cause confusion.

Hmmm, well, for example... <smile> ...neither does the word 'trinity,' but we talk about the triune Godhead often. We have plenty of words that are absolutely descriptive of Biblical things and concepts. To automatically label something as a "false representation" that "causes confusion" is quite ridiculous, especially when it is presented precisely to make things crystal clear and to eliminate false representations or confusion of any kind.

Here Paul is addressing to the born again Gentile church, distinguishing between who's the born again 'true Jew' and the non born again bound to the Law, sin and death 'false Jew' in representation.

Well, right; this is what I said, and why I said it. But yet, thus those true Jews are of God's Israel... what Israel really is and who it really consists of... born-again Christians, a multitude of people from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

... not all descended from the nation of Israel belong to Israel...

Right, so, again, not all are part of God's Israel merely because they are Jewish and outwardly... outwardly... of the Jewish nation.

It was merely a distinguishment of Paul between a born again freed Jew from the Law and a non born again bound Jews to the Law. As to a born again true Jew from a non born again false Jew, but apparently both are true Jews in the 'flesh'.

Yeah, no. <smile> You're conflating two people groups, Fred, which is strange, because it's the very distinction that Paul is so clear in making.

Whilst ones born in the 'flesh' by promise from Isaac from the ones who don't, until that final promised 'offspring' Jesus Christ.

There's only one 'Israel in the flesh' and who are from the linage of Jacob and the 12 sons, hence at present only a remnant of them through the Gospel are saved under the election of grace.

Hmmm. Maybe the issue is that you seem to here not understand "in the flesh" as it is in Scripture...

But eventually in the the end 'all Israel' in the 'flesh' who're not saved, shall be saved by GOD's mercy, and they'll be the 'finishing stones' to complete GOD's house for eternity.

Well, right, Fred, but those truly of God's Israel, His household... what we might call true Israel. Not as opposed to "false Israel," but just distinguishing from the many who outwardly seem to be of Israel but are not. This is not so difficult to understand, Fred.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

And to you also. Grace and peace to you.

i disagree.

Fair enough. <smile>

To me the 'first resurrection' is the 'rapture' of those dead in Christ and those who are living in Christ.

Interesting. You seem here to actually be agreeing with me. <smile> Yes, those of us who have been "made alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace saved⁠ ~ and raised up with Him and seated with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" have been resurrected... raised up, you see, though previously we "were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind... dead in our trespasses/sin.

Who'll be taken up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and taken to Heaven, and who shall reign with Christ a thousand years.

Ugh. No, when Christ returns, we will go out to meet Christ in His return... in the same manner, but in a much greater way, as the people went out to accompany Christ in His triumphal entrance into Jerusalem on that Palm Sunday over two thousand years ago. And this will be after the "thousand years," after God's millennium and Christ's millennial reign has ended and His eternal reign begun. And Heaven, Fred, is brought to us. This is Revelation 21:2 ~ "the holy city, new Jerusalem, (comes) down out of heaven from God..." This is the New Heaven and New Earth. All things will finally be made new, which is what God says He is doing in Revelation 21:3-5. There will be "a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.'" God says, even now, “Behold, I am making all things new." So, heaven and earth are finally one. You see?

On these 'second death' have no power over them, and 'the dead shall not rise again' until the thousand years are over. After the thousand years are over, the 'second resurrection' takes place for the 'final judgement' of Lord Jesus Christ. And on them the 'second death' have power because scripturally there are those resurrect unto life and there are those resurrect unto damnation. For ones resurrect in damnation, 'second death' have power over them to hold them in the lake of fire for eternity.

Hm. Okay, yes, and here again, you seem to be agreeing with me... understanding correctly. That's... interesting...

Grace and peace to you, Fred.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of GOD and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Dear readers,

The scripture reads, 'first resurrection', and not, 'the resurrection', could it be there's a 'second resurrection' after the 'thousand years'?

Also it reads, 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished'.

In other words, there's no resurrection of the dead until the thousand years were finished?

We know the second coming of Jesus will be until the clouds, where the dead in Christ shall rise and the living, both will be changed, and taken up to meet Him in the clouds.

Therefore this is the 'first resurrection' which takes place after the Great Tribulation, where the church saints came out of it persecuted dead or alive.

Then His third coming with His angels on earth to confront the beast and kings of the earth, and their armies, who'll wage war.

Furthermore it reads, 'Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such second death hath no power'.

Looks like not all who are in Christ hath part in the first resurrection, as also relating to the parable, 'one will be taken while the other left behind' and the 'ten virgins'.

So the church left behind will face a thousand years, hence the second death hath power over them?

Thank you and shalom in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

The 1st resurrection will likely happen within a few years. Then anyone after that who dies _ during the Great Tribulation _ OR during the Millennial Kingdom will take part in the 2nd resurrection ( whether they are saved or not. We'll be blessed since we do not have to wait much longer.
At the end of the Millennial Kingdom, the final judgment comes. Death, Hades ( and everyone in it), the 1ST heavens and 1st earth will be destroyed with fire. This is a universal cataclysmic event ( 2 Peter 3:10). There will be no more pain and suffering, no death ( which is the penalty for sins). Just peace, love, joy and harmony for all eternity among all the Body of Christ, with The Father, Son and Holy Spirit ... and angels I guess.
An interesting side thought just came to me: Since we will have multi-dimensional bodies ( like the angels), what would we need angels for? What would be their purpose be since we would not need them as guardians? They were given powers to fight against darkness, Satan and demons and prktected us from danger; but there wouldn 't be spiritual wars any more, not would we need their protection.

 

[PinSeeker]

The 1st resurrection will likely happen within a few years. Then anyone after that who dies _ during the Great Tribulation _ OR during the Millennial Kingdom will take part in the 2nd resurrection ( whether they are saved or not. We'll be blessed since we do not have to wait much longer.
At the end of the Millennial Kingdom, the final judgment comes. Death, Hades ( and everyone in it), the 1ST heavens and 1st earth will be destroyed with fire. This is a universal cataclysmic event ( 2 Peter 3:10). There will be no more pain and suffering, no death ( which is the penalty for sins). Just peace, love, joy and harmony for all eternity among all the Body of Christ, with The Father, Son and Holy Spirit ... and angels I guess.
An interesting side thought just came to me: Since we will have multi-dimensional bodies ( like the angels), what would we need angels for? What would be their purpose be since we would not need them as guardians? They were given powers to fight against darkness, Satan and demons and prktected us from danger; but there wouldn 't be spiritual wars any more, not would we need their protection.

Ugh. <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, RDB.

 

[Fred J]

Hmmm, well, for example... <smile> ...neither does the word 'trinity,' but we talk about the triune Godhead often. We have plenty of words that are absolutely descriptive of Biblical things and concepts. To automatically label something as a "false representation" that "causes confusion" is quite ridiculous, especially when it is presented precisely to make things crystal clear and to eliminate false representations or confusion of any kind.


Well, right; this is what I said, and why I said it. But yet, thus those true Jews are of God's Israel... what Israel really is and who it really consists of... born-again Christians, a multitude of people from every tongue, tribe, and nation.


Right, so, again, not all are part of God's Israel merely because they are Jewish and outwardly... outwardly... of the Jewish nation.


Yeah, no. <smile> You're conflating two people groups, Fred, which is strange, because it's the very distinction that Paul is so clear in making.


Hmmm. Maybe the issue is that you seem to here not understand "in the flesh" as it is in Scripture...


Well, right, Fred, but those truly of God's Israel, His household... what we might call true Israel. Not as opposed to "false Israel," but just distinguishing from the many who outwardly seem to be of Israel but are not. This is not so difficult to understand, Fred.


And to you also. Grace and peace to you.


Fair enough. <smile>


Interesting. You seem here to actually be agreeing with me. <smile> Yes, those of us who have been "made alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace saved⁠ ~ and raised up with Him and seated with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" have been resurrected... raised up, you see, though previously we "were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind... dead in our trespasses/sin.


Ugh. No, when Christ returns, we will go out to meet Christ in His return... in the same manner, but in a much greater way, as the people went out to accompany Christ in His triumphal entrance into Jerusalem on that Palm Sunday over two thousand years ago. And this will be after the "thousand years," after God's millennium and Christ's millennial reign has ended and His eternal reign begun. And Heaven, Fred, is brought to us. This is Revelation 21:2 ~ "the holy city, new Jerusalem, (comes) down out of heaven from God..." This is the New Heaven and New Earth. All things will finally be made new, which is what God says He is doing in Revelation 21:3-5. There will be "a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.'" God says, even now, “Behold, I am making all things new." So, heaven and earth are finally one. You see?


Hm. Okay, yes, and here again, you seem to be agreeing with me... understanding correctly. That's... interesting...

Grace and peace to you, Fred.

i disagree.

Am not with this man made doctrine of some here about there's a 'true Israel', and a 'false Israel' as well apparently.

From Isaac there's only one true Israel/Jacob and his descendants are from the 12 sons, the 12 tribes that resides in their promise land and nation Israel.

Romans 9:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the Law, and the service of GOD, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the 'flesh' Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6. Not as though the word of GOD hath taken non effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children(like Hagar's, Keturah's or Esau's): but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Even though they're in the flesh, sin and fall short of the Glory of GOD like the Gentiles, moreover are enemies of the Gospel and crucified their Messiah?

Yet they are beloved of GOD for their fathers' sake, the patriarchs of Israel. especially Abraham with whom GOD made the covenants and seed.

Since also on the other hand, for a blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so 'all Israel'(not some Israel) shall be saved: For at the moment GOD have concluded them all in unbelief, that HE might have mercy upon 'all'.

That's why also beforehand Jesus on the cross prayed for all of them, saying, "FATHER forgive them for they knew not what they do."

Apparently GOD deliberately made many of them in the meantime an 'unsaved Jew', since at present only a remnant of them are saved under the election of grace and a 'saved Jew'.

That's why from the very remnant, saved Paul ministered and witnessed to the church in distinguishment between a Jew who's saved freed by the Gospel, and who's not saved bound to the Law of Moses.

This witnessing above of the Holy Ghost finally will be my stand, that who's 'all Israel', and 'unsaved they' shall be saved at the end, once the full number of Gentiles be come in.

 

[Fred J]

The 1st resurrection will likely happen within a few years. Then anyone after that who dies _ during the Great Tribulation _

Matthew 24:29, depicts Christ's 2nd coming for His 'body' the 'church' in the 'first resurrection', will be after the tribulation of those days.

Those included in them are ones who went through and came out of Great Tribulation. (Revelation7:14)

Likewise ones who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; (Revelation20:4)

Great Tribulation is over, anti-Christ and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And satan is bound and locked in the bottomless for a thousand years, and likewise the saints reign with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Davy]

And I think because you have " thousand years" in quotations you don't believe it's a literal thousand years.

What kind of silly statement is that above?

Because I put the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 in... quotations means I SPECIFICALLY DO believe that "thousand years" will be a LITERAL period that begins at Christ's future return. I believe just the opposite of your above statement!

In this time of apostasy I think the toughest barricade to break through is that teaching.

Oh, we have yet to reach the time of falling away (apostasia) that Apostle Paul was speaking of per 2 Thessalonians 2. Those who believe we have are not prepared spiritually for what is coming upon this world with the pseudo-Christ appearing in Jerusalem at the end, working the great signs and wonders Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about for the very end.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes. If you read from Revelation 20:11-15, you will see " books" opened for the unsaved, and then "another book was opened, which is the book of life". So everyone is being judged at the same time. The last verse confirms this:

V.15: And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

The " sea giving up it's dead" is most likely a reiteration of v.12. The " sea" seems to be a symbolical reference to the unsaved world. Can't be 100% on that without further study. In Revelation 13, Satan comes out of the " sea".
A "great millstone was cast into the sea" in Revelation 18 in reference to the judgment of Babylon. So it appears to have a negative connotation.

Most likely?
We have the dead in christ rising BEFORE THE TRIB AS JESUS TAUGHT.
********** THEN**********

AFTER THE MILLENNIUM

The sea gives up her dead at the GWTJ.

Two resurrections of the bible.
Hard to go against the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Hello little kid, you've got to grow up and stop reasoning like a kid based on one's imaginary.

Verse 1, John sees the Lamb stood on the mount Zion with the 144,000, having His FATHER's name written in their foreheads.

Verse 2, and John heard a voice from Heaven, and not a voice in Heaven, therefore John's 'vision' was at the very Mount Zion on earth.

Lol
No need for the little anger.
So, if editing Rev 14 is your high ground????
You can dance around it all you like.
It is plain to anyone not making it fit some doctrine.

Rev 4
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

So the throne and John are in heaven.
You know where God is, and his Mt zion is.

Now that we have the correct setting, we can procede.

Rev 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

There it is UNEDITED.
JOHN AND THE 144,000 IN HEAVEN.
In heaven ....ahem....where God's throne is.
In heaven..ahem....where the 4 beasts are.
In heaven where Mt zion is.
In heaven where the bible says.
In heaven where the elders are.

In heaven, without a doubt, where the bible says the 144,000 are.
....but yes you are being made to go against the bible.
**********FURTHERMORE*********
THE 144,000.."WERE"...PAST TENSE ..."redeemed" from the earth.
......As is written

So, no, your doctrine is made up and NOT biblical at all.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Ugh. <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, RDB.

Ugh. Grace and peace to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Matthew 24:29, depicts Christ's 2nd coming for His 'body' the 'church' in the 'first resurrection', will be after the tribulation of those days.

Those included in them are ones who went through and came out of Great Tribulation. (Revelation7:14)

Likewise ones who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of GOD, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; (Revelation20:4)

Great Tribulation is over, anti-Christ and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And satan is bound and locked in the bottomless for a thousand years, and likewise the saints reign with Christ a thousand years.

Matt 24 has 2 separate gatherings.
One after the trib , in heaven by angels.
( which can not possibly be the rapture where JESUS GATHERS, not angels, DROM EARTH, not heaven.
The other Gathering declared by Jesus in mat 24 is BEFORE THE TRIB.
("One taken, one left behind.")

The second one, by Jesus, before the trib, in mat 24, is the rapture of the church.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Matthew 24:29, depicts Christ's 2nd coming for His 'body' the 'church' in the 'first resurrection', will be after the tribulation of those days.

Those included in them are ones who went through and came out of Great Tribulation. (Revelation7:14)

"after the tribulation of those days" implies what was previously mentioned. In a war, one can speak of several battles in the war, it doesn't mean the war is over, there are more battles to come. Likewise in Matthew, He specifically mentioned the Beginning of Sorrows, which has much tribulation. In Revelation 7; the multitude comes out of the GT, it doesn't mean it's over. I believe the last trumpet is #7 (Rev. 11:15) a parallel vantage point of (Rev.7:9); but the 7 Bowls of wrath are released at that time of the Rapture, which means it's not over yet.

 

[Luther7]

Most likely?
We have the dead in christ rising BEFORE THE TRIB AS JESUS TAUGHT.
********** THEN**********

AFTER THE MILLENNIUM

The sea gives up her dead at the GWTJ.

Two resurrections of the bible.
Hard to go against the bible.

You said: "We have the dead in christ rising BEFORE THE TRIB AS JESUS TAUGHT."
Please tell me where Jesus said that, I'd like to see it. Thank you.

 

[Luther7]

What kind of silly statement is that above?

Because I put the "thousand years" of Revelation 20 in... quotations means I SPECIFICALLY DO believe that "thousand years" will be a LITERAL period that begins at Christ's future return. I believe just the opposite of your above statement!




Oh, we have yet to reach the time of falling away (apostasia) that Apostle Paul was speaking of per 2 Thessalonians 2. Those who believe we have are not prepared spiritually for what is coming upon this world with the pseudo-Christ appearing in Jerusalem at the end, working the great signs and wonders Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about for the very end.

There is a Jerusalem above which Christians are waiting for ( are supposed to be waiting for). The Jerusalem which the Jewish people are looking towards is the earthly Jerusalem where they are in the final stages of preparation for their messiah and their millennial kingdom as taught in the talmud (Olam Ha-Ba or World to come).

The falling away is in the Christian Church, where they are taught that they need to focus on a coming millennial kingdom on this current sin- cursed earth. Instead of a " secret rapture", the gathering together of Christians will be in plain view for the whole world to see:

1 Thessalonians 4:17:
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall always be with the Lord.

There is no additional information. We will be with the Lord in a new heavens and earth. If the "earthly" millennial kingdom was so critically important, God would tell us.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52:

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

54 So when this corruptible should put on incorruption, and this mortal should put on immortality, then will come to pass the word which was written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Death is swallowed up in victory. It's time to be with the Lord forever, in a new heavens and a new earth. In a phony " earthly millennial kingdom", there's still death because it's still this earth.
So, are you with the Bible or another religion?

 

[rebuilder 454]

You said: "We have the dead in christ rising BEFORE THE TRIB AS JESUS TAUGHT."
Please tell me where Jesus said that, I'd like to see it. Thank you.

mat 24.
one taken,one left behind before the flood, in the setting of normal life, commerce, and planning for the future.
those alive and gathered, do not precede the dead in Christ.
Jesus declaring a pre trib rapture is in fact a pre trib resurrection per 1 thes 4

 

[Luther7]

mat 24.
one taken,one left behind before the flood, in the setting of normal life, commerce, and planning for the future.
those alive and gathered, do not precede the dead in Christ.
Jesus declaring a pre trib rapture is in fact a pre trib resurrection per 1 thes 4

Matthew 24:38-39:
For just as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they didn't know a thing until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man.

I don't understand what you are getting at. These verses teach an element of f surprise for the unsaved.

 

[PinSeeker]

i disagree.

Well of course you do. <smile> But you continue to make comments that cause me to think you really don't, but only think you do. <smile>

From Isaac there's only one true Israel/Jacob...

Right, I agree, but people mistake who makes up the Israel of God. That's been my point for several posts now.

and his descendants are from the 12 sons, the 12 tribes that resides in their promise land and nation Israel.

And this is precisely the mistake. <smile> Unless you define correctly who makes up the nation of Israel, God's household, and what the true land promise is (which Jesus enunciates clearly in Matthew 5:5). There are many Christians out there whose understanding of Israel is far too... small...

Romans 9:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the Law, and the service of GOD, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the 'flesh' Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6. Not as though the word of GOD hath taken non effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children(like Hagar's, Keturah's or Esau's): but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Even though they're in the flesh, sin and fall short of the Glory of GOD like the Gentiles, moreover are enemies of the Gospel and crucified their Messiah?

Yet they are beloved of GOD for their fathers' sake, the patriarchs of Israel. especially Abraham with whom GOD made the covenants and seed.

Since also on the other hand, for a blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so 'all Israel'(not some Israel) shall be saved: For at the moment GOD have concluded them all in unbelief, that HE might have mercy upon 'all'.

That's why also beforehand Jesus on the cross prayed for all of them, saying, "FATHER forgive them for they knew not what they do."

Apparently GOD deliberately made many of them in the meantime an 'unsaved Jew', since at present only a remnant of them are saved under the election of grace and a 'saved Jew'.

That's why from the very remnant, saved Paul ministered and witnessed to the church in distinguishment between a Jew who's saved freed by the Gospel, and who's not saved bound to the Law of Moses.

This witnessing above of the Holy Ghost finally will be my stand, that who's 'all Israel', and 'unsaved they' shall be saved at the end, once the full number of Gentiles be come in.

And I say the same thing about me and my "stand." But answer this one small question, Fred. Who makes up God's Israel, the one... you're right about there being only one... the one true Israel of God? I mean you can answer that in one word if you want to, but just a few if you think it necessary. Who makes up God's Israel, the one true Israel of God?

Matthew 24:29, depicts Christ's 2nd coming for His 'body' the 'church' in the 'first resurrection', will be after the tribulation of those days. Those included in them are ones who went through and came out of Great Tribulation. (Revelation7:14)

Right. Agree, but only in part. <smile>

Yes, it's His second coming, but this is the second resurrection. The first has already occurred, over the course of God's millennium, the "thousand years." And this is what we "see" in John's vision in Revelation 20:1-6. In that Matthew 24 passage, Fred, the angels do gather the elect, that's true, but it says nothing about the elect being the only ones resurrected. But yes, His elect will be gathered unto Him; they will be the ones who... successfully <smile> in the sense that they are in Christ <smile> ...come out of the tribulation. But there will be many present who... do not successfully come out of the tribulation, are not in Christ, and... <shudder> You will notice that in this Matthew 24 passage, it says all are present and they will see the Son of Man (Jesus of course) in His return, also. You remember Revelation 1:7, where we read, "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."

There is a passage where Paul talks about this very thing... in 1 Thessalonians 4, where he writes, "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." You know this passage, I'm sure, but releveant to what we're talking about here, Paul says there, "the dead in Christ will rise first." And very similar to the Matthew 24 passage above, the strong implication there is that the dead in Christ are not the only ones who will rise, but also, those dead not in Christ, but they will rise after the dead in Christ. And this takes us back to what Christ Himself says in John 5:28-29, that "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." So yes, He's coming for His church, in the sense that they will be the ones to "stand in the Judgment" (Psalm 1) and will subsequently enter into ~ stay for, actually <smile> ~ the New Heaven and New Earth, which will come down to us, as we see in Revelation 21, immediately after the final Judgment and the departure of those not in Christ.

And satan is bound and locked in the bottomless for a thousand years, and likewise the saints reign with Christ a thousand years.

This is true now. Who is your King, Fred? And we know that the binding of Satan is so that he cannot "deceive the nations," as John says in Revelation 20:3. You want proof that Satan is bound, I guess. Well, all you have to do is look around you ~ and maybe, like me, even yourself ~ to know that Satan is bound from deceiving the nations. Every single Gentile believer/Christian ~ I am one, and I would bet good money you are, too ~ is proof of Satan's binding. Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 12:29-29... He's speaking of Himself, of course, casting out demons, and of Satan as the "strong man"... "if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man?"

Grace and peace to you, my friend.