The 3 Minor Feasts.

[The Light]

All of the seals were opened when John was in heaven. If the seals have not been opened yet, we would not know what was contained in the book sealed with the seven seals.

John had a vision of the seals being opened. In that vision he tells us what happens when the seals will be opened in the future. None of the seals are currently opened. If they were opened the rider on the white horse who is the 6th king would have been revealed.

QUESTION FOR YOU: When is the abomination of desolation destroyed, removed, from the temple mount to end the great tribulation? Remember, the text of Revelation 13 says the statue image will have come to life, and be speaking.

I do not know the answer to your question as no scripture comes to mind that gives this answer.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 6th seal event is when the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven, Matthew 24:29-30a. 45 days before Jesus descends to earth coming in power and great glory in Matthew 24:30b.

Once returned back to earth, Jesus will send His angels to gather the elect - the Jews from the nations to Israel.

The elect are not "the Jews from the nations to Israel". The elect are Christians.

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

This passage is in relation to "God's elect" and how no one can be against those who are God's elect in terms of making any charge/accusation against them. Do you think the above passage about the elect is about Christians in the church or about "the Jews from the nations to Israel"?

 

[Douggg]

The elect are not "the Jews from the nations to Israel". The elect are Christians.

The Jews will have become Christians before Jesus returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Jews will have become Christians before Jesus returns.

Do you think Paul is only referring to Jews who have become Christians in the following passage where he talks about the elect...

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

 

[Douggg]

Do you think Paul is only referring to Jews who have become Christians in the following passage where he talks about the elect...

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Paul is referring to both Jews and Gentiles who have become Christians.

The majority of Jews currently do not believe in Jesus. They will, however, turn to believing in Jesus before Jesus returns.

Are you trying to assert that Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect, is referring to the resurrection/rapture ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul is referring to both Jews and Gentiles who have become Christians.

Correct. And Jew and Gentiles who have become Christians are the elect. You somehow forget to include Gentile Christians in the gathering of the elect that will occur when Jesus returns. That reeks of doctrinal bias on your part.

The majority of Jews currently do not believe in Jesus. They will, however, turn to believing in Jesus before Jesus returns.

I disagree, but that's besides the point. We're talking about who the elect are. If you trust that Paul knew what he was talking about then that means the elect consist of both Jews and Gentiles who are Christians and not just Jews who are Christians.

Are you trying to assert that Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect, is referring to the resurrection/rapture ?

Of course. According to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, the elect (Christians) will be gathered to Christ at the second coming of Christ, which is what is described in Matthew 24:30-31.

 

[Douggg]

I disagree, but that's besides the point. We're talking about who the elect are. If you trust that Paul knew what he was talking about then that means the elect consist of both Jews and Gentiles who are Christians and not just Jews who are Christians.

Paul did not write Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Of course. According to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, the elect (Christians) will be gathered to Christ at the second coming of Christ, which is what is described in Matthew 24:30-31.

So you are saying it comforting for a Christian to know that he must go the great tribulation ?

Matthew 24:31 is about the gathering of the Jews from the nations, a promise that God made to them in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. The gathering of the house of Israel when Jesus has returned is also in Ezekiel 39:28.

Deuteronomy 30:

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul did not write Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

LOL. Did I say that he did? No, I did not. I brought up Paul to show who the elect are in order to aid your understanding of Matthew 24:31.

So you are saying it comforting for a Christian to know that he must go the great tribulation ?

I don't believe that any Christian will go through the great tribulation as you define it (you associate it partly with God's wrath). I am saying that it is comforting for a Christian to know that he or she is not appointed to God's wrath and will not experience God's wrath, as Paul indicated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11.

Matthew 24:31 is about the gathering of the Jews from the nations, a promise that God made to them in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. The gathering of the house of Israel when Jesus has returned is also in Ezekiel 39:28.

Deuteronomy 30:

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Matthew 24:31 is about the gathering of the elect. I showed who the elect are using Romans 8:31-34. The elect are Jew and Gentile Christians. You have to change who the elect are in order to get that verse to agree with your doctrine, but I don't.

 

[Douggg]

I don't believe that any Christian will go through the great tribulation as you define it (you associate it partly with God's wrath).

You define what you think the great tribulation is and what will take place during that time period.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You define what you think the great tribulation is and what will take place during that time period.

I will do that if you admit that you are changing the scriptural definition of the elect, which is that they consist of both Jew and Gentile Christians (Romans 8:31-34), in order to get Matthew 24:31 to agree with your doctrine.

 

[Douggg]

I will do that

Yes, you do it. You define what you think the great tribulation is and what will take place during that time period.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, you do it. You define what you think the great tribulation is and what will take place during that time period.

I will do that if you admit that you are changing the scriptural definition of the elect, which is that they consist of both Jew and Gentile Christians (Romans 8:31-34), in order to get Matthew 24:31 to agree with your doctrine.

 

[Douggg]

I will do that if you admit that you are changing the scriptural definition of the elect, which is that they consist of both Jew and Gentile Christians (Romans 8:31-34), in order to get Matthew 24:31 to agree with your doctrine.

I have already addressed the issue of who the elect are. And that the Jews, who are not currently believers in Jesus, will become believers in Jesus before He returns.

Now, you define what you think the great tribulation is and what will take place during that time period.

 

[Douggg]

Paul in Romans 11 talking about the Jews.

Romans 11:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have already addressed the issue of who the elect are. And that the Jews, who are not currently believers in Jesus, will become believers in Jesus before He returns.

You're not addressing who Paul defined as the elect in Romans 8:31-34 and why you would define the elect differently in Matthew 24:31? According to scripture, the elect include Gentile Christians, so why are you excluding Gentile Christians from the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31? You're doing that for no good reason. You can't change who the elect are to fit your doctrine.

Now, you define what you think the great tribulation is and what will take place during that time period.

Not until you explain why you are changing the scriptural definition of who the elect are in Matthew 24:31.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul in Romans 11 talking about the Jews.

Romans 11:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

He's not talking about the Jews in general there, if that's what you're saying. He's talking about "the election", which he earlier defined as including the remnant of Israelite believers of his time that he contrasted with "the rest" who "were blinded".

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The fact that Paul, in Romans 11, referred to the elect from Israel of his time (Christians in Israel) does not mean that Gentile Christians are not included among the elect. We know from other scripture like Romans 8:31-34 and various other verses that Gentile Christians are included among the elect. So, there is no basis at all for excluding Gentile Christians from the elect that will be gathered when Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

, so why are you excluding Gentile Christians from the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31?

Because the wording in Matthew 24:31 is taken from Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

 

[ewq1938]

It's saying the day is a year long. The days of wrath is one year.

Nope.

Then why even tell us about the seals if they are nothing?

Prophecy is not nothing.

Yeah right. Let's just pretend that the trumpets and vials of God's don't happen.

They happen but not part of the 7th seal. Stop over exaggerating everything.

And the kings of the earth were hiding in caves because they were in fear of 30 minutes of silence. Your logic is continually left wanting.

Stop conflating dif things together. The caves thing is a dif seal not the 7th.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because the wording in Matthew 24:31 is taken from Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

Jesus was not referencing Deuteronomy 30:4. That verse is using hyperbole. Obviously, no one on earth could literally be driven out "unto the outmost parts of heaven". But, Jesus was not using hyperbole in Matthew 24:31, He was speaking literally. Matthew 24 isn't the only place where the Olivet Discourse is recorded.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jesus talked about the elect being gathered both from "the uttermost part of the earth" and "the uttermost part of heaven". That lines up with what Paul wrote here...

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The elect from the uttermost part of heaven will be the souls and spirits of the dead in Christ ("them also which sleep in Jesus"). The elect from the uttermost part of the earth will be those who are alive and remain until Jesus comes who, with the resurrected dead in Christ that unite with their souls and spirits), will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

Scripture teaches that the elect include Gentile Christians and there's no way around that. The elect that will be gathered when Jesus comes will include all Christians in Christ's church.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus was not referencing Deuteronomy 30:4. That verse is using hyperbole. Obviously, no one on earth could literally be driven out "unto the outmost parts of heaven". But, Jesus was not using hyperbole in Matthew 24:31, He was speaking literally. Matthew 24 isn't the only place where the Olivet Discourse is recorded.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jesus talked about the elect being gathered both from "the uttermost part of the earth" and "the uttermost part of heaven". That lines up with what Paul wrote here...

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The elect from the uttermost part of heaven will be the souls and spirits of the dead in Christ ("them also which sleep in Jesus"). The elect from the uttermost part of the earth will be those who are alive and remain until Jesus comes who, with the resurrected dead in Christ that unite with their souls and spirits), will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

Scripture teaches that the elect include Gentile Christians and there's no way around that. The elect that will be gathered when Jesus comes will include all Christians in Christ's church.

Matthew 24:31 does not say anything about the resurrection of the dead in Christ, nor anything about the translation of the living in Christ.

Matthew 24:31 is not about the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians4:14-18.