A recent session I had with Chatgpt pertaining to some of the Discourse

[covenantee]

This on-going argument is exactly why I cannot embrace even partial preterism. It simply muddies the water and takes away from the sufficiency of the cross. So what if history proves a literal destruction in 70 AD! Doesn't change the FACT that it was at the cross not 70 AD that all that was written of Christ coming in His Kingdom was finished at the cross, not 30-40 years later.

I fully concur.

But did Jesus make any reference in His Olivet discourse to what would occur between then and 70 AD?

 

[TribulationSigns]

I fully concur.

But did Jesus make any reference in His Olivet discourse to what would occur between then and 70 AD?

A big NO! None whatsoever.

Mat 24:1-8
(1) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
(2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
(3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Did Christ talk about Jerusalem in 70AD after verse 3? NO! Do you even understand what wars and rumors of wars the Lord talked about here? It is common mistake among Preterists and Premillennialists are thinking about literal wars between physical nations and kingdoms with spears or missiles. This is not the case at all! Let discuss the wars and rumours of wars for now.

We have to understand them in the same spiritual sense that God tells us is our warfare, and since interpretations belong to God, and context is important, we understand it in the light of God's word. The church has always been in wars and there have always been reports of wars. But our warfare in Scripture is spiritual rather than carnal or "of the flesh" as the world's wars are. Israel's past physical wars were to give us a deeper Spiritual picture of Spiritual warfare. Near the second coming, these wars that the Christians have knowledge of will be greater than ever. Note that the context of Matthew chapter 24, Mark 13, etc., of the reports of wars, famine, and earthquakes, is regarding the persecution of the church and not the disposition of the world at large. The warfare is against us, not political nations. The warfare is spiritual and so the battles against the wicked is spiritual rather than political, and the weapons the worldwide church uses are spiritual. Consider:

Ephesians 6:10-17

• "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
• Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
• For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
• Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
• Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
• And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
• Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
• And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"

The war against the messengers of the church, and their sword is the Word of God. This war hasn't changed in 2000 years, the only thing that has changed is the amount of it that God's people have to stand against. Just as Christ said in the world we all will have tribulation (it's normative) but also says there shall come a time of "Great" tribulation. It's the amount of tribulation that is different, not the tribulation itself. The same with the wars. There have always been wars, but there will be a time of report of great wars, and it will cause great tribulation for the Saints at that time. Note for example in the Prophesy of war in the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9:

Daniel 9:26

• "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

This isn't talking about a physical war among physical nations, but a spiritual war that will end in abominations that will leave God's Old Testament congregation desolate in verse 26. Same for abominations that will leave God's New Testament congregation in verse 27.

Matthew speaks of these wars because Christ prophesies of a time of great trials/temptations and tribulations, just as there was at Christ's first incarnation on earth. There was war then, symbolized by the war in Heaven (Revelation 12) even as there will be before Christ returns. Because in both instances, the congregation of God is in apostasy. There is great travail, a time of trouble or tribulation, because of this spiritual warfare against us by the wicked. And because the gospel has gone out to the ends of the earth rather than to just Israel, this great shaking of the kingdom in tribulation will be in diverse places, not in Jerusalem. In other words, worldwide in all congregations of the earth. Even as revealed in the passage:

Matthew 24:6-7

• "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
• For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."

Wars speak of this spiritual warfare in high places, rather than physical wars among geopolitical nations. ALL mankind is spiritually either of the Holy Nation of Spiritual Jews or of a Spiritual Gentiles (meaning non-Jewish) nation. All mankind is spiritually either of the Kingdom of God or of the Kingdom of Satan. Selah! So it is easy to see how a wicked nation will be against a holy nation, and the kingdom of Satan against the kingdom of God. All over the world! Hello?! Thus rumors of wars would be reports or news of wars all over, in many diverse or different places - something that we shall "hear." For example, this apostasy is a worldwide phenomenon where many people can "see it", "hear it" or experience this falling away from the faith INSIDE the churches. Yet our job is to hold fast and "fight the good fight against these wicked among us:"

(Continue to next post)

 

[TribulationSigns]

1st Timothy 1:18

• "This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;"

At this time of the news of war matches the great tribulation period, which is a trial or temptation of the church. It's not yet the end yet, but the beginning labor pains. It means that a "sign" announcing the end is near. It is not sign in 70AD. it is a sign "FOR" Saints that their congregations are about to go into a short season right before the end. This is why ALL these fearful things must come to pass first, but we are cautioned not to be anxious because of these fearful things. For Judgment must first begin at the house of God before the end.

1st Peter 4:16-18

• "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
• For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
• And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

There is the general principle that judgment must begin at the house of God (Ezekiel 9:5-7; Jer 25:29). Nation against nation and kingdom against Kingdom refers to the nation of believers against the nation of unbelievers, and the kingdom of God against kingdom of Satan. Not Russia against Israel. Not your Roman soldiers against "Judean Jews" with physical wars at all.

Now the famine speaks of spiritual famine, as it is defined by the word of God.

Amos 8:11

• "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:"

Again, we see it's not physical bread (Matthew 16:12) or physical hunger while getting out of falling city of Jersualem in 70AD. Rather a spiritual bread and the spiritual water! Doctrine, which is the Word of God in the churches. That is our daily bread just as the Jews received daily manna. Once the true doctrine are removed from the church due to spiritual war (when Satan and his false prophets and christs appear to be winning), spiritual famines occurs. The pestilences reference the spiritual sickness, the plagues and diseases in the church that Satan brings.

Revelation 18:4

• "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

The sinners within the church receive this plague of spiritual sickness when God sends them strong delusion, so that they believe a lie and are condemned. As a result, they will not find salvation within that judged church. Remember, as it is written, judgment must begin at the house of God.

The earthquakes spoken of are not physical phenomena, but spiritual shakings presently taking place within churches in various locations.

Luke 21:26

• "Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

The powers of heaven are being shaken because once all the Chosen Elect of the congregation have been sealed—after hearing the testimony of the Two Witnesses—the power of salvation ceases. There is no more sealing beyond that point. Selah.

This is precisely why God calls His Chosen Elect to come out of the abominable church, so that they do not partake in the judgment He has placed upon her. This is the great shaking of the earth: Two Witnesses have finished their testimony, have been killed, and have fled to the mountains. Selah.

These are the great fearful sights and the great signs from the kingdom of heaven (Luke 21:11)—wars and rumors of wars—for the New Testament congregation as a representative of God's Kingdom is coming to an end because of her unfaithfulness, just like the Jews at the Cross!

This has nothing to do with physical warfare involving Roman soldiers, starving Jewish mothers, or running to literal mountains. That entire interpretation is the result of natural-minded reasoning.

You have misunderstood these passages because you read them through the lens of the natural man, not through spiritual discernment.

 

[covenantee]

1st Timothy 1:18

• "This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;"

At this time of the news of war matches the great tribulation period, which is a trial or temptation of the church. It's not yet the end yet, but the beginning labor pains. It means that a "sign" announcing the end is near. It is not sign in 70AD. it is a sign "FOR" Saints that their congregations are about to go into a short season right before the end. This is why ALL these fearful things must come to pass first, but we are cautioned not to be anxious because of these fearful things. For Judgment must first begin at the house of God before the end.

1st Peter 4:16-18

• "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
• For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
• And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

There is the general principle that judgment must begin at the house of God (Ezekiel 9:5-7; Jer 25:29). Nation against nation and kingdom against Kingdom refers to the nation of believers against the nation of unbelievers, and the kingdom of God against kingdom of Satan. Not Russia against Israel. Not your Roman soldiers against "Judean Jews" with physical wars at all.

Now the famine speaks of spiritual famine, as it is defined by the word of God.

Amos 8:11

• "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:"

Again, we see it's not physical bread (Matthew 16:12) or physical hunger while getting out of falling city of Jersualem in 70AD. Rather a spiritual bread and the spiritual water! Doctrine, which is the Word of God in the churches. That is our daily bread just as the Jews received daily manna. Once the true doctrine are removed from the church due to spiritual war (when Satan and his false prophets and christs appear to be winning), spiritual famines occurs. The pestilences reference the spiritual sickness, the plagues and diseases in the church that Satan brings.

Revelation 18:4

• "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

The sinners within the church receive this plague of spiritual sickness when God sends them strong delusion, so that they believe a lie and are condemned. As a result, they will not find salvation within that judged church. Remember, as it is written, judgment must begin at the house of God.

The earthquakes spoken of are not physical phenomena, but spiritual shakings presently taking place within churches in various locations.

Luke 21:26

• "Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

The powers of heaven are being shaken because once all the Chosen Elect of the congregation have been sealed—after hearing the testimony of the Two Witnesses—the power of salvation ceases. There is no more sealing beyond that point. Selah.

This is precisely why God calls His Chosen Elect to come out of the abominable church, so that they do not partake in the judgment He has placed upon her. This is the great shaking of the earth: Two Witnesses have finished their testimony, have been killed, and have fled to the mountains. Selah.

These are the great fearful sights and the great signs from the kingdom of heaven (Luke 21:11)—wars and rumors of wars—for the New Testament congregation as a representative of God's Kingdom is coming to an end because of her unfaithfulness, just like the Jews at the Cross!

This has nothing to do with physical warfare involving Roman soldiers, starving Jewish mothers, or running to literal mountains. That entire interpretation is the result of natural-minded reasoning.

You have misunderstood these passages because you read them through the lens of the natural man, not through spiritual discernment.

You might as well quit wasting bytes. We all already know what you believe.

I'm waiting to hear from @rwb.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You might as well quit wasting bytes. We all already know what you believe.

I'm waiting to hear from @rwb.

Too bad. It’s a public record, and I’m free to respond to anyone, armed with unlimited bytes of God’s Word—whether that bothers you or not.

 

[covenantee]

Too bad. It’s a public record, and I’m free to respond to anyone, armed with unlimited bytes of God’s Word—whether that bothers you or not.

Your responses go straight into the round file from whence they come.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Your responses go straight into the round file from whence they come.

Go ahead, toss it in the round file—at your own peril. God’s Word has a funny way of showing up exactly where it’s needed, for all who hunger for truth.

 

[covenantee]

Go ahead, toss it in the round file—at your own peril. God’s Word has a funny way of showing up exactly where it’s needed, for all who hunger for truth.

When do you plan to start telling it?

 

[TribulationSigns]

When do you plan to start telling it?

I already did— several times actually. Seems like you were too busy laughing to notice.

 

[rwb]

I fully concur.

But did Jesus make any reference in His Olivet discourse to what would occur between then and 70 AD?

I believe the reason Christ warned them of the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple was because their minds and hearts had love for that which is physical (the Old Covenant). Christ had taught them for three years about the Kingdom of God He came to earth with, that is not of this world, cannot be seen with physical sight, might only be known and entered when man is born again, because the Kingdom of God is within you, a spiritual Kingdom. Their minds and hearts needed to be fixed on the things from above, spiritual things pertaining not to the Old Covenant but now fixed on building the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ spiritually came to earth to build, as the disciples preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world. Knowing their minds/hearts were still focused on the Old Covenant, not yet remembering/understanding what He had told them about the Old Covenant, Christ plainly tells them all the things of Old that represent the Old Covenant through Law and Prophets of Old will perish with the Old city and temple would be utterly destroyed.

That which was near at hand was the spiritual Kingdom of God! That came with power from above when the Holy Spirit was poured out permanently at Pentecost, and then they remembered the destruction Christ spoke came when His body was crucified and through HIs resurrection He ushered the building of the holy city New Jerusalem in heaven as the gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be proclaimed unto all the nations of the world.

The literal destruction of the city and temple of Old came as judgment and wrath of God in 70 AD just as Christ said the Kingdom of God would be taken from them. The Olivet Discourse though making mention of the physical destruction and how it would affect a nation in unbelief, the discourse is warning to Christ's disciples in every age, beginning with the first century disciples, to the very last of all they/we must endure as we build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven by preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world.

 

[Wick Stick]

That's a big red flag to me. It sounds like an echo chamber.

Much love!

Every AI seems to have a confirmation bias built-in.

I'm not sure if that's designed behavior or learned behavior on the part of the AI. I suspect that they have learned that telling people what they want to hear elicits positive feedback.

2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

 

[covenantee]

I believe the reason Christ warned them of the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple was because their minds and hearts had love for that which is physical (the Old Covenant). Christ had taught them for three years about the Kingdom of God He came to earth with, that is not of this world, cannot be seen with physical sight, might only be known and entered when man is born again, because the Kingdom of God is within you, a spiritual Kingdom. Their minds and hearts needed to be fixed on the things from above, spiritual things pertaining not to the Old Covenant but now fixed on building the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ spiritually came to earth to build, as the disciples preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world. Knowing their minds/hearts were still focused on the Old Covenant, not yet remembering/understanding what He had told them about the Old Covenant, Christ plainly tells them all the things of Old that represent the Old Covenant through Law and Prophets of Old will perish with the Old city and temple would be utterly destroyed.

That which was near at hand was the spiritual Kingdom of God! That came with power from above when the Holy Spirit was poured out permanently at Pentecost, and then they remembered the destruction Christ spoke came when His body was crucified and through HIs resurrection He ushered the building of the holy city New Jerusalem in heaven as the gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be proclaimed unto all the nations of the world.

The literal destruction of the city and temple of Old came as judgment and wrath of God in 70 AD just as Christ said the Kingdom of God would be taken from them. The Olivet Discourse though making mention of the physical destruction and how it would affect a nation in unbelief, the discourse is warning to Christ's disciples in every age, beginning with the first century disciples, to the very last of all they/we must endure as we build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven by preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world.

I agree with virtually all of that. Just wanted to confirm that you recognize that 70 AD was both a physical and spiritual reality for which Messiah had a purpose, and whose predictive events He described in His Olivet discourse.

@TribulationSigns will be livid.

 

[rwb]

I agree with virtually all of that. Just wanted to confirm that you recognize that 70 AD was both a physical and spiritual reality for which Messiah had a purpose, and whose predictive events He described in His Olivet discourse.

@TribulationSigns will be livid.

I believe TS has greater understanding than most for discerning natural things used in Scripture that point to spiritual, not literal fulfillment. While I agree that Christ was warning of a literal destruction, the point of using literal physical things to define spiritual fulfillment should not be discarded so easily.

For instance, what TS has written in post #82 of spiritual and not literal physical warfare, is right on. Christ was NOT warning His disciples of literal, physical warfare that would come against the literal city and temple, rather His words are for the spiritual warfare that has been on-going since He ushered the Kingdom of God into the world, and gave His Church the mandate to take the message of the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the world so the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven would be built.

 

[TribulationSigns]

@TribulationSigns will be livid.

What is this? This is not a contest, nor a matter of ego. Scripture is clear: “Every one of us shall give account of himself to God” (Romans 14:12). I have no reason to be “livid” with anyone. My concern is fidelity to the testimony of Christ and the handling of His Word.

As for response from @rwb , he prefaced his argument with “I believe the reason”—yet provided not a single verse of Scripture to support his claim about a supposed physical destruction of an unholy temple in 70 AD. With due respect, personal belief without biblical warrant carries no authority. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” (Romans 3:4).

More importantly, rwb also failed to address the actual context of Christ’s Words. Jesus spoke of “wars and rumours of wars,” “nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,” “famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places” (Matthew 24:6–7). Look at my post. Clearly rwb's personal opinion really have not refuted anything I wrote. These are global, escalating signs, only for the New Testament congregation which Judea is type of where the false prophets and christs are rising, not localized events confined to first-century Judea.

 

[rwb]

1st Timothy 1:18

• "This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;"

At this time of the news of war matches the great tribulation period, which is a trial or temptation of the church. It's not yet the end yet, but the beginning labor pains. It means that a "sign" announcing the end is near. It is not sign in 70AD. it is a sign "FOR" Saints that their congregations are about to go into a short season right before the end. This is why ALL these fearful things must come to pass first, but we are cautioned not to be anxious because of these fearful things. For Judgment must first begin at the house of God before the end.

I agree that spiritual warfare is against the Church, I also view great tribulation as that which has been on-going in the Church from the beginning, and although great tribulation shall become greater and greater, especially when Satan is loosed from the pit for a "little season", I believe it is error to limit great tribulation to "THE" great tribulation as though it is of short duration at or near the time when the last trumpet begins to sound.

 

[rwb]

What is this? This is not a contest, nor a matter of ego. Scripture is clear: “Every one of us shall give account of himself to God” (Romans 14:12). I have no reason to be “livid” with anyone. My concern is fidelity to the testimony of Christ and the handling of His Word.

As for response from @rwb , he prefaced his argument with “I believe the reason”—yet provided not a single verse of Scripture to support his claim about a supposed physical destruction of an unholy temple in 70 AD. With due respect, personal belief without biblical warrant carries no authority. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” (Romans 3:4).

More importantly, rwb also failed to address the actual context of Christ’s Words. Jesus spoke of “wars and rumours of wars,” “nation rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,” “famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places” (Matthew 24:6–7). Look at my post. Clearly rwb's personal opinion really have not refuted anything I wrote. These are global, escalating signs, only for the New Testament congregation which Judea is type of where the false prophets and christs are rising, not localized events confined to first-century Judea.

It's good to hear you're not livid with me

 

[rwb]

Look at my post. Clearly rwb's personal opinion really have not refuted anything I wrote. These are global, escalating signs, only for the New Testament congregation which Judea is type of where the false prophets and christs are rising, not localized events confined to first-century Judea.

It was not my intent to refute what you've written that I agree with.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I agree that spiritual warfare is against the Church, I also view great tribulation as that which has been on-going in the Church from the beginning, and although great tribulation shall become greater and greater, especially when Satan is loosed from the pit for a "little season", I believe it is error to limit great tribulation to "THE" great tribulation as though it is of short duration at or near the time when the last trumpet begins to sound.

That is all good and well.

I like to explain again, rwb, that the spiritual warfare waged war against the CONGREGATION of Israel (woman) since the beginning of time to the time of the end. Against the Old Testament congregation first, and then the New Testament congregation. It is indeed the "great tribulation" for ALL SAINTS, redeemed of Christ, of ALL TIME, as stated in Revelation 7.

Rev 7:13-14
(13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
(14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This passage speaks of a long, continuous period of “great tribulation” that spans from the fall of Adam to the Second Coming of Christ—a reality that all saints have endured in every age. Scripture is explicit that God’s people are “appointed unto afflictions” (1 Thessalonians 3:3), and that “through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22). The Great Tribulation did not suddenly begin at the so-called “end times”; it has been the constant experience of the faithful since the beginning.

Some here insist that “great tribulation” of Revelation 7 must apply only to a future end-time window as described in Matthew 24. I disagree. In Revelation 7, John hears the number of the sealed—144,000—then sees “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Revelation 7:4, 9). These are not two different groups. They are the same people. - - the totality of the saints. Scripture does not create one company for Jews and another for Gentiles; “there is neither Jew nor Greek… for ye are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28).

The 144,000 that God assigned is a spiritual representative number, symbolizing the same great multitude John saw—God’s covenant people in fullness. They, and we as believers, are all partakers of this great tribulation. “These are they which came out of great tribulation” (Revelation 7:14) whether some lived in days 0of Moses or King's David, or martin Luther King's day, - - not some future subset, but the redeemed of all ages.

Now, concerning Matthew 24:21: yes, that text speaks of a unique and intensified phase of the same great tribulation immediately preceding the Second Coming. “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” This is not a different tribulation altogether, but the most severe climax of an ongoing reality where the testimony of God has been silenced and no salvation is possible for men at that time. Revelation calls this period “a little season” (Revelation 20:3), during which the pressure upon the saints reaches its greatest intensity.

In short: it is one great tribulation, spanning history—with a final, unparalleled escalation at the end. Same conflict. Same people. Same testimony. Only the last phase is the worst. If that distinction isn’t understood, the entire framework becomes confused. So your post may be accurate. :-)

 

[Davidpt]

You are being fair to Luke's account of the subjects (plural) Jesus answered them with - but not to Matthew's or Mark's accounts of the subject (singular) Jesus answered them with.

Luke 7
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

20 When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luke also recorded Jesus speaking to them about the persecution they were to endure.

Matthew and Mark's account do not have Jesus mentioning either the temple again, or the city in His reply. The abomination of desolation in the holy place does not refer to anything regarding Roman legions or the temple. The temple wasn't even the holy place anymore in 70 AD. I believe you agree with that.

None of the three gospels have Jesus mentioning the temple again in His reply - but Luke has Him giving them that sign in Luke 21:20-24 - if it is indeed talking about the events of 70 AD, and nothing else.

So you are being fair to Luke's account.

I agree with the rest of your argument above about Jesus' reply having nothing to do with the temple being destroyed,

PS: God bless your and your family's Christmas time.

PPS: I'm sorry about me getting angry about ChatGPT being used as a 3rd party in your other thread, and being hostile in the way I replied (because you are correct in saying that I was venting frustration about ChatGPT being used).

I also get annoyed when people use what the ECF said, and what commentaries and famous sermons etc etc have said - as a 3rd party to back up what they are arguing from the scriptures

- but I should have walked away and come back and found a better way to word what I was saying in my reply. Especially because I was backing you up when one of the other posters who I now have on ignore was gunning at you for the same thing. So I proved myself a complete hypocrite in regard to that - which I knew I had done - making me even more angry because of my own hypocrisy.

I apologize.

Merry Christmas to you too, brother. Apology accepted though an apology was no longer necessary as far as I am concerned. I am already way over that other thing in the past that you are apologizing about. I'm no longer upset about it but was a bit upset about it at the time.

 

[rwb]

That is all good and well.

I like to explain again, rwb, that the spiritual warfare waged war against the CONGREGATION of Israel (woman) since the beginning of time to the time of the end. Against the Old Testament congregation first, and then the New Testament congregation. It is indeed the "great tribulation" for ALL SAINTS, redeemed of Christ, of ALL TIME, as stated in Revelation 7.

Absolutely! Not many understand the Church in the wilderness of Old, the Old Covenant faithful saints were the congregation/assembly/called out ones who were the Church in Israel as She existed on earth long before Christ came to usher in the universal Church; the Kingdom of God that would come when Christ came not to the Jewish nation only, but for all nations, kindreds, people and tongues. So yes, I absolutely agree the Church/Congregation of God has endured "great tribulation" from the beginning. This is partly why I once said to you that Scripture does not say "the" great tribulation. Because great tribulation is not limited to a particular time, but rather to particular persecutions against the Kingdom of God, the Church.

Rev 7 IMO affirms this and is why we first read of the faithful of Old who were sealed before the gospel of the Kingdom of God began to be proclaimed unto all nations, tribes, kindreds, people and tongues. The Old Covenant faithful, all the tribes of the children of Israel are numbered with the innumerable multitude but they, being firstfruits of the Spirit being sealed through the Holy Spirit before the Spirit was poured out upon the whole earth are counted first.

The eternal life-giving Spirit was held back from blowing upon the four corners of the earth until the Old Covenant faithful were quickened spiritually (sealed) because they lived and died before the advent of Christ sending His Spirit to give spiritual life to all who died in faith.

Revelation 7:1-3 (KJV) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Once the saints of Old were spiritually sealed, the spiritual body living souls ascended spiritually alive to heaven with the Lord after His resurrection, the Spirit that had been universally held back but the time of Christ building the Kingdom of God through the power of the gospel and His Spirit had come to all mankind. That's why we read of only the remnant 144,000 of Old eternally saved, and after an innumerable multitude that no man can number. Rev 7:9 is a picture of the full embodiment of every faithful saint in heaven from the beginning of creation until the seventh trumpet sounds.