Is it possible to lose salvation?

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Christian Soldier

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You mean feelings and emotions Like Love?


do you think you have understanding?


You think you are an elect of God, really?


What truth did you find?


you go too far here, no one is preaching salvation by works here


I agree devils and those who reject Jesus are toast.

No one is saying saved by works, you use it as an excuse.

How you define works, and how did Christ define works do you know the difference? can you tell me?
I can see you don't even know know that love is not a feeling or emotion or some kind of sensual thing. Here's the true meaning of the word.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails".

As you can see love is not a snow flake feeling.

I have as much understanding as God has graciously imparted to me, by His Holy Spirit. You don't have understanding, unless God gives it to you. And we know He only gives it to His elect, you know those of us, He chose before time began.

No, I don't think I'm one of Gods elect, I know I am. So there's a big difference between thinking you know the truth and actually knowing the truth.

I didn't find the truth, because dead and blind men don't look for anything. The Lord revealed the truth to me, while I was dead in my sin, His name is the Lord Jesus.

No, you do preach salvation by works and many others do as well. I know that none of you admit it but I can show you the irrefutable evidence.

There is no difference between my definition of works, and that of the Lord Jesus. I agree with him on all points.
 

Christian Soldier

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This is exactly what you are doing. You are very good at it.

Again describing yourself to a tee. I don't belong to any denomination. I gave you the historical meaning of those verses. Meanings that have existed for 2000 years.

I showed you the errors of your interpretation in my first post to you. You dismissed them without ever attempting to show why they are false. If you cannot show they are false your interpretation would be false.
What you are good at is changing the language so it fits your theory, thus denies what someone actually stated, as you did in the previous post #4874. The term "saved by good works" never appears in the other posts I have read of the other posters.

Because you don't believe in the effective Incarnation of Christ, you have stated several times that many humans have not been saved by not being elected. Then you say that they will go to hell. I explained to you earlier that there are two aspects to our salvation. Objective and subjective. Objectively, hell would not and could not exist unless Christ became man and raised our human natures to life. To say the least, your understanding of scripture and theology is very limited.

You don't really discourse with other posters. You just shut them off with some innocuous blather that is totally irrelevant to what someone posts.
No, I'm not doing any such thing. I have never expressed my private opinions and pushed them as bible doctrines, but that's all you ever do.

I don't know what sect or cult you belong to, but I know that none of your claims can be supported by any scriptures. You have given me the historical gnostic interpretation of the scriptures, I never denied the fact that heretics have existed for the past 2000 years. The passage of time doesn't make lies become truth.

You have never showed me where I made any errors, yes you have disagreed with sound bible doctrine, based on you feelings and emotions but you haven't identified a single error, using scripture.
I get it, you hate the awful truth. You and most professing Christians do. The Lord Jesus is the truth, He said many would come to Him on judgement day saying Lord, Lord, but He will tell them I never knew you, depart from Me into the everlasting lake of fire.

Please find any errors and point them out to me and show the verse which contradicts what I claimed.
 

walter

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No, I won't be hoodwinked into joining you in plucking verses out of their intended context and interpreting them in isolation.
I think every scripture is explaining something valuable, do you agree?

Does that sound like some kind of trap, if we discuss the words in one scripture at a time?
 

Berean

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""Was Job saved by the teachings of the 12 ?
Why not""
Apparently you know, so help the ignorant ones like myself to learn :gd
How did the teachings of the 12 save Job ?
The 12, didn't save anyone, Jesus does.

Let me ask, can anyone before Christ be saved? If so, how are they saved if they never knew the name above all names? Since salvation can only be found in Jesus.
 

rvmb

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That would be true if the Lord Jesus lied, when He said this in >>> John 6:37 ("All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out")

The "all that the Father gives" refers to those chosen (elect) by God for salvation before time began. The Father "gives" people to the Son within the eternal plan of redemption, where the Son agrees to save them.

While the general call to all people can be resisted, the Father's specific work on the elect's heart through the Holy Spirit (regeneration) makes them come to Christ, willingly.

The second part, "whoever comes to me I will never cast out," guarantees that those given by the Father will be eternally kept and saved, as He loses none of them (John 6:39).


Jesus speaks this after many followed Him for bread, not understanding Him as the true Bread of Life, highlighting that not all who physically followed Him were truly "given" by the Father.

John 6:37 confirms that God's electing love ensures the salvation of those He gives to Jesus, who then promises to secure them eternally.

These are just a couple of verses that confirm that "universalism", is a heresy. There are hundreds more

""The "all that the Father gives" refers to those chosen (elect) by God for salvation before time began""
Do you believe that GOD BLINDLY chose who would be saved or chose based on foreknowledge ?
 

rvmb

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The 12, didn't save anyone, Jesus does.

Let me ask, can anyone before Christ be saved? If so, how are they saved if they never knew the name above all names? Since salvation can only be found in Jesus.
""The 12, didn't save anyone, Jesus does."" << AGREED
Do you believe Job was saved by the >>teachings<< of the 12 ?
 

Christian Soldier

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I think every scripture is explaining something valuable, do you agree?

Does that sound like some kind of trap, if we discuss the words in one scripture at a time?
I don't agree that every scripture is explaining something valuable. Have you not read, where it says that every scripture is foolishness.

So it depends on the individual, the scriptures are valuable to some and a load of rubbish to others.

It can be a trap, to enter into a Bible study with someone who doesn't consider scripture through systematic theology. Without systematic theology, the scriptures don't make any sense.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it :contemplate:
 

Christian Soldier

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""The "all that the Father gives" refers to those chosen (elect) by God for salvation before time began""
Do you believe that GOD BLINDLY chose who would be saved or chose based on foreknowledge ?
I don't get to choose what to believe and what not to believe about what God said. He said it and I simply believe everything He said, so I don't agree with your cherry picking approach, where you believe this but don't believe that.

Here are some verses which show that your "saved by works" version of the gospel is a perversion of the truth. And don't deny the fact that you place all of your trust and hope on your good works to save you, that's exactly what you believe so there's no point in denying it.

Romans 9:11-13 "For, not yet having been born nor having done anything good or bad...it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" This shows God's choice was not based on works.

Notice how God already hated Esau, before He was born?

Romans 9:15-16 "For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who shows mercy." Election is God's prerogative.

Ephesians 1:4-5 "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." God's purpose, not our actions, is the basis.

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our works, but because of His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began." Grace precedes any human action.

I don't know if God has chosen you for salvation or not, only He knows it and the regenerated individual know. Nobody else knows for sure, since some are regenerated and saved on their death bed. So I would never write anyone off, no matter how depraved they are. God saves murderers and adulterers and every other kind of sinner.

God has never revealed why He chose His elect onto salvation, that's His business, He can do whatever He wants with His creation. And nobody has any authority to question or challenge Him in any way.
 
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Wrangler

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I can see you don't even know know that love is not a feeling or emotion or some kind of sensual thing. Here's the true meaning of the word.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails".
In my view, the word has been mistranslated as love. It should be translated compassion, which is universal.

Love is a natural response to virtue. We love virtue in others. We love it when our sports team win. Our loyalty to them is shown in when they loose, we proclaim, "they stink." When they win, we proclaim, "we won."

We like a little virtue. We love a lot of virtue. If the person embraces vice, our like and love naturally retreats. Compassion, even for ones enemies, is much more a rational way to understand the Biblical ethic. It's foolish to try to jam what we love, virtue, into the Biblical narrative of agape, universal compassion, even for those with no redeeming virtues.
 

Wrangler

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I've always rejected OSAS. While there are many NT proofs, I came across in my devotional reading an OT reference. Jeremiah 16:5
For thus says the LORD: Do not enter the house of mourning or go to lament or bemoan them, for I have taken away my peace from this people, says the LORD, my steadfast love and mercy.

And by the way, the above expression by God would not be considered very loving when we act on it. How then are we to reconcile 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 to Jeremiah 16:5? I'll start a separate thread on the topic of justice and the over-spiritualization that has taken hold of modern Christianity. Another NT author wrote "But if the people of a house or town will not welcome you or listen to you, leave it and shake its dust from your feet!" Not very loving by today's over-spiritualized standards of hyper-grace.
 

LoveYeshua

Eagle
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I can see you don't even know know that love is not a feeling or emotion or some kind of sensual thing. Here's the true meaning of the word.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails".

As you can see love is not a snow flake feeling.

I have as much understanding as God has graciously imparted to me, by His Holy Spirit. You don't have understanding, unless God gives it to you. And we know He only gives it to His elect, you know those of us, He chose before time began.

No, I don't think I'm one of Gods elect, I know I am. So there's a big difference between thinking you know the truth and actually knowing the truth.

I didn't find the truth, because dead and blind men don't look for anything. The Lord revealed the truth to me, while I was dead in my sin, His name is the Lord Jesus.

No, you do preach salvation by works and many others do as well. I know that none of you admit it but I can show you the irrefutable evidence.

There is no difference between my definition of works, and that of the Lord Jesus. I agree with him on all points.
Do you follow the 10 commandments from the heart, like Jesus asked his believers to?

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Rightglory

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No, I'm not doing any such thing. I have never expressed my private opinions and pushed them as bible doctrines, but that's all you ever do.

I don't know what sect or cult you belong to, but I know that none of your claims can be supported by any scriptures. You have given me the historical gnostic interpretation of the scriptures, I never denied the fact that heretics have existed for the past 2000 years. The passage of time doesn't make lies become truth.

You have never showed me where I made any errors, yes you have disagreed with sound bible doctrine, based on you feelings and emotions but you haven't identified a single error, using scripture.
I get it, you hate the awful truth. You and most professing Christians do. The Lord Jesus is the truth, He said many would come to Him on judgement day saying Lord, Lord, but He will tell them I never knew you, depart from Me into the everlasting lake of fire.

Please find any errors and point them out to me and show the verse which contradicts what I claimed.
Lets take a look at what you believe, based on the ideas you have been stating in this thread. Two ideas, election of believers, and the idea that a believer cannot loose salvation. These two ideas only exists in a systematic theology known as Calvinism. Calvinism also has three other ideas that are essential to understanding his entire doctrine. Total depravity of man, limited atonement, and irresistible grace.

Historically, none of these have ever been part of the teaching of the Church from the beginning and since. Only one idea, election, a very simple concept written by Augustine, but was never taught by the Church, existed in some form earlier than Calvin who is a 16th century theologian.
If one holds to the idea that the Holy Spirit gives to each person individualized truth and that is why in Protestantism you can get hundreds, even thousands of truths, all making the same claim as you have been. Historically, any man who developed an idea that was not held, believed or practiced by the Church from the beginning ended up as a heretic and his ideas condemned. Yet you hold to some ideas that historically were developed by a man 1500+ years from the Apostolic times.
My question to you is, did the Holy Spirit change the meaning of the Apostolic writings in giving new inspiration to individuals? If so, then all of the men who originated these hundreds of denominations, all different is some way from another, still All Truth? Or can we just believe anything our little egos come up with on our own or adopt ideas from other men, long after the Apostolic times and call them the meaning of scripture?

Now, lets look at scripture and what beliefs that have been held from the beginning. Total depravity, Scripture says that every human being has been given the ability and capability to understand God. Rom 1:18-24. Every single human being, individually, based on their own choices will be held accountable to what they did with this knowledge, Rom 2:6-8, Rev 20:11-13. No election of believers. It is antithetical to who God is. One becomes an elect by belief, baptism.
Limited atonement. Impossible. If Christ assumed our human natures, and raised them to life, how can that be limited? Do we divide Christ? I Cor 15:21-22 clears that up. Irresistible grace. If God gives man free will to choose for himself who he will believe and follow, than it would be possible for a believer to reject God and leave the fold. There are approximately 200 texts in the NT that state this is possible. If irresistable grace is false, then perseverance of the saints is also false since the latter follows the former.

To hold your views, one must either deny most of scripture, or twist them by changing the meaning of words to align with a particular view,such as Calvinism.
By the way, the idea that a believer cannot loose his salvation is actually true but not the way you and others hold. Its true because scripture never states that a believer HAS salvation in the present of one's lifetime,. It all about losing faith! Salvation is inherited at the end of life. I Pet 3-5. And who gets that salvation? Those that endure to the end. What is enduring? Being faithful in one's commitment to love, serve Christ, to become imitators of Him. That takes effort, oh yea, works. See James 2:23-25.

Merry Christmas,
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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I believe the New Testament is inspired even though the Apostle Paul wrote 2 Timothy 3:16 before the last books in the Bible were completed.

Regardless of when the Lord said what He said in 2 Timothy 3:16 thru the Apostle Paul has no bearing on it's truthfulness.

Notice the ALL part:

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness



Apparently you know, so help the ignorant ones like myself to learn :gd
How did the teachings of the 12 save Job ?

The Apostle taught the Doctrine of Christ which is what saves.

Job was in Abraham's bosom and Jesus taught the Gospel to the OT saints when He went in to hell and they all got born again.

So Job got saved by the same Doctrine of Christ taught b y the Apostles which we find in the New Testament.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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But, his heart was rotten to the core

No, his heart was not always rotten.

If it was then Jesus would have committed sin by giving Judas the Holy Spirit and anointed him to do miracles.

Judas allowed the devil's lies into his heart and mind resulting in corruption

Jesus explains how this happens in Mark 4:13-20


Let me ask, can anyone before Christ be saved? If so, how are they saved if they never knew the name above all names? Since salvation can only be found in Jesus.

Yes, see Hebrews 11 which contains names of OT saints who were saved and are in the Hall of Fame of Faith

Under the old covenant those who were saved were preserves in Abraham's bosom which was a temporary holding place for OT saints where they would stay until the new birth became available thru Jesus

During the 3 days and nights Jesus spent in the belly of the earth, He preached to these folks and they all got born again thru the Doctrine of Christ which Jesus preached to them.
 

LoveYeshua

Eagle
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No, his heart was not always rotten.

If it was then Jesus would have committed sin by giving Judas the Holy Spirit and anointed him to do miracles.

Judas allowed the devil's lies into his heart and mind resulting in corruption

Jesus explains how this happens in Mark 4:13-20




Yes, see Hebrews 11 which contains names of OT saints who were saved and are in the Hall of Fame of Faith

Under the old covenant those who were saved were preserves in Abraham's bosom which was a temporary holding place for OT saints where they would stay until the new birth became available thru Jesus

During the 3 days and nights Jesus spent in the belly of the earth, He preached to these folks and they all got born again thru the Doctrine of Christ which Jesus preached to them.
Big boy you know what I mean, when he did what he did, Sold jesus of course. people change! this is what happened to Judas. that is the whole point of this thread.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Big boy you know what I mean, when he did what he did, Sold jesus of course. people change! this is what happened to Judas. that is the whole point of this thread.

And yet some claim Judas was evil the entire time.

If he was, that is claiming Jesus committed sin by giving him the Holy Spirit.

Just because they Lord has foreknowledge that Judas would turn bad at some point does not prove Judas was bad in the beginning because he was not.

In fact, the story of Judas is one of the proofs we have in the NT that OSAS is false doctrine.

The OSAS heretics try to protect their precious false doctrine at all costs so they have to say Judas was a devil all along.

If they don't continually claim he was bad all along then they are admitting that their false doctrine is indeed false.

And so they lie about Jesus in order to protect their precious false doctrine
 

LoveYeshua

Eagle
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And yet some claim Judas was evil the entire time.

If he was, that is claiming Jesus committed sin by giving him the Holy Spirit.

Just because they Lord has foreknowledge that Judas would turn bad at some point does not prove Judas was bad in the beginning because he was not.

In fact, the story of Judas is one of the proofs we have in the NT that OSAS is false doctrine.

The OSAS heretics try to protect their precious false doctrine at all costs so they have to say Judas was a devil all along.

If they don't continually claim he was bad all along then they are admitting that their false doctrine is indeed false.

And so they lie about Jesus in order to protect their precious false doctrine
I don't think he was evil but at one point became, most likely he was influenced by satan, but he chose to do what he did, that sin was unforgivable, to sell Jesus for 30 pieces of silver I cannot even want to imagine. it's painful for me just writing it.

Matt 26:24 The Son of Man goeth as it is written of Him, but woe unto that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.”
 

Big Boy Johnson

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that sin was unforgivable

That's not true either.

Judas could have repented and the Lord would have forgiven him.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Judas failed to repent and come back to Jesus that might have life.

Instead though he was filled with the sorrow of this world that leads to death leading him to kill himself which seals his fate.

Those that self murder go to hell, including those that were Christians but fall away and murdered themselves.