Revelation 20: 5&6

[PinSeeker]

Matthew 24:38-39:
For just as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they didn't know a thing until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man.

I don't understand what you are getting at. These verses teach an element of f surprise for the unsaved.

Right. There's no "pre-trib rapture." What Jesus is talking about here is His return, that it will be sudden and unexpected. And ultimately, after the final Judgment, they ~ the ones not in Christ, the unsaved, will depart. We will be on His right in the final Judgment, and we will actually stay, and thus inherit, with Jesus, the earth (Matthew 5:5), and enter into the New Heaven and New Earth (Revelation 21). Right.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Matthew 24:38-39:
For just as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they didn't know a thing until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man.

I don't understand what you are getting at. These verses teach an element of f surprise for the unsaved.

The setting in no way is mid trib, or postrib.
The setting is pretrib.
Jesus used Both Noah and Lot as examples AT HIS COMING.
lot was never taken in the middle or after the judgement.
Both Noah and Lot gathered pretrib.
Noah RETURNS postrib.

Both settings, at their gathering, are OPPOSITE anything but pretrib..
Only pretrib fits.

That gathering postrib, Declared by Jesus is Rev 19.
Jesus says he gathers his elect in heaven, not on the way down.
We see that gathering of rev 19, IN HEAVEN ALREADY ON WHITE HORSES.

Hard to dispute what is written.

 

[PinSeeker]

The setting is pretrib.

The setting is after the "thousand years," God's millennium... these last days, as the writer of Hebrews puts it ~ "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2) ~ the time of tribulation ~ remember Jesus's words in John 16:33 ~ "I have said these things to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."

The end of the tribulation period ~ which is God's time in bringing all the elect unto Himself ~ is what prompts Jesus's return and the final Judgment. And then of course the New Heaven and New Earth, which will have no end. Jesus says explicitly there in Matthew 24:36, "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." The very next words out of His mouth are about the days of Noah (Matthew) and Lot (Luke). What happened in those days (Noah's flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah) was sudden, unexpected, and complete. And in both of those times, R454. the wicked were swept away; they were the ones that were no more. This is His context.

Jesus used Both Noah and Lot as examples AT HIS COMING.

Agreed, but His point was the suddenness and unexpectedness of His coming. No one knows the day or the hour. See above.

lot was never taken in the middle or after the judgement.

Lot was not "taken away," but escaped the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. And was kept safe, as we will be.

Both Noah and Lot gathered pretrib.

Noah was never "taken away" either, but was kept safe inside the ark, which is, in that story, a "type" or "shadow" of Jesus, Who carries us through the storm. God never promises to remove us from trouble or tribulation, but to be with us, walk with us, and protect us through it, nowhere more clear than Psalm 23:

"The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; my cup overflows. You anoint my head with oil; Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever."​

That gathering postrib, Declared by Jesus is Rev 19.

Agreed. But the events described in Revelation 19:11-21 are parallel ~ the same events described in a little bit different way as but strikingly similar to the events described in Revelation 20:7-10.

Jesus says he gathers his elect in heaven, not on the way down. We see that gathering of rev 19, IN HEAVEN ALREADY ON WHITE HORSES.

Many of them, yes; He brings them with Him. <smile> But those who are still alive at His coming go out to greet Him as the Royalty that He is.

Hard to dispute what is written.

But easy to dispute how you see it... how you understand it. <smile>

Merry Christmas, R454. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

There is a Jerusalem above which Christians are waiting for ( are supposed to be waiting for). The Jerusalem which the Jewish people are looking towards is the earthly Jerusalem where they are in the final stages of preparation for their messiah and their millennial kingdom as taught in the talmud (Olam Ha-Ba or World to come).

You are misunderstanding what Apostle Paul showed about that in Galatians 4:22-31 Scripture about the free woman vs. the bondwoman. Your preacher evidently failed to fully explain it. I will do that here, for those interested, not necessarily just for you... to offer a more complete understanding about it.

Gal 4:22-31
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Paul of course refers to Abraham's sons Isaac in whom God's Promise by Faith was given through, vs. Ishmael Abraham's son by his wife's bondservant slave Hagar.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

That "promise" Paul speaks of is the Promise by Faith which God gave first to Abraham with The Gospel of Jesus Christ. In Galatians 3, Paul explains that is the same Promise by Faith that all Christians have also believed, and Paul uses Isaac as being the son represented by the "freewoman".

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

The old covenant, is also what the sons of Ishmael (Arabs) recognized, i.e., the law of Moses. That old covenant represented bondage, as no one could be perfect in keeping the law. It could not save one's soul, even though Paul said the law is good, as it points to righteousness and was to serve as a pointer to the need for Christ's coming per The New Covenant.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Paul in the above is referring to this present world Jerusalem and the orthodox Jews who still try to keep the old covenant, as they reject Jesus of Nazareth as the prophesied Messiah.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

That Jerusalem which is above is the Heavenly Jerusalem that will be established WHERE? Of course it is in the Heavenly right now with The Father and The Son, but WHERE does Revelation 21 reveal its final resting place will be?

Rev 21:1-3
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God."
KJV

In final, the Jerusalem that is free, which Paul spoke of, is to come down to this earth, out of Heaven, and The Father also will dwell with us, ON THIS EARTH, meaning this SAME EARTH HE WILL RESTORE TO ITS FORMER GLORY.


Gal 4:27-31
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Paul points to the allegory in Isaiah 54, which I have tried to explain to brethren several times. The barren woman represents those who remain faithful waiting for Jesus to return. But the married wife represents those who fall away to the false-Messiah that will come first. Those of Faith are represented by the "chaste virgin" idea by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11, and in final will have more children (i.e., the Gentile believers joined with God's chosen elect).

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

To this day, BOTH... radical sons of Ishmael (Arabs) who follow the law of Moses and Mohammed, along with unbelieving Jews, work against those in Christ Jesus.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

In Summary:
The fact that those in Christ are represented by the FREE woman, with the Heavenly Jerusalem that will eventually come down to this earth out of Heaven, means we await Christ's future return and the glory of the world to come. We await that, instead of THIS present world time and today's Jerusalem on earth, which is in bondage still.

This means a MAJOR FUTURE CHANGE FOR THE EARTHLY JERUSALEM THAT EXISTS ON EARTH TODAY.

It is NOT ABOUT US GETTING RAPTURED TO HEAVEN. That Revelation 21 Scripture is clear that the new Jerusalem is coming HERE, ON THIS EARTH, but a restored earth. Even the Revelation 21:16 verse reveals God's Heavenly Cube will EXTEND from the base of the earth where new Jerusalem will be, and go upwards and outwards 12,000 furlongs, forming a cube.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are misunderstanding what Apostle Paul showed about that in Galatians 4:22-31 Scripture about the free woman vs. the bondwoman. Your preacher evidently failed to fully explain it. I will do that here, for those interested, not necessarily just for you... to offer a more complete understanding about it.

Gal 4:22-31
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Paul of course refers to Abraham's sons Isaac in whom God's Promise by Faith was given through, vs. Ishmael Abraham's son by his wife's bondservant slave Hagar.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

That "promise" Paul speaks of is the Promise by Faith which God gave first to Abraham with The Gospel of Jesus Christ. In Galatians 3, Paul explains that is the same Promise by Faith that all Christians have also believed, and Paul uses Isaac as being the son represented by the "freewoman".

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

The old covenant, is also what the sons of Ishmael (Arabs) recognized, i.e., the law of Moses. That old covenant represented bondage, as no one could be perfect in keeping the law. It could not save one's soul, even though Paul said the law is good, as it points to righteousness and was to serve as a pointer to the need for Christ's coming per The New Covenant.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Paul in the above is referring to this present world Jerusalem and the orthodox Jews who still try to keep the old covenant, as they reject Jesus of Nazareth as the prophesied Messiah.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

That Jerusalem which is above is the Heavenly Jerusalem that will be established WHERE? Of course it is in the Heavenly right now with The Father and The Son, but WHERE does Revelation 21 reveal its final resting place will be?

Rev 21:1-3
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God."
KJV

In final, the Jerusalem that is free, which Paul spoke of, is to come down to this earth, out of Heaven, and The Father also will dwell with us, ON THIS EARTH, meaning this SAME EARTH HE WILL RESTORE TO ITS FORMER GLORY.


Gal 4:27-31
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Paul points to the allegory in Isaiah 54, which I have tried to explain to brethren several times. The barren woman represents those who remain faithful waiting for Jesus to return. But the married wife represents those who fall away to the false-Messiah that will come first. Those of Faith are represented by the "chaste virgin" idea by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11, and in final will have more children (i.e., the Gentile believers joined with God's chosen elect).

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

To this day, BOTH... radical sons of Ishmael (Arabs) who follow the law of Moses and Mohammed, along with unbelieving Jews, work against those in Christ Jesus.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

In Summary:
The fact that those in Christ are represented by the FREE woman, with the Heavenly Jerusalem that will eventually come down to this earth out of Heaven, means we await Christ's future return and the glory of the world to come. We await that, instead of THIS present world time and today's Jerusalem on earth, which is in bondage still.

This means a MAJOR FUTURE CHANGE FOR THE EARTHLY JERUSALEM THAT EXISTS ON EARTH TODAY.

It is NOT ABOUT US GETTING RAPTURED TO HEAVEN. That Revelation 21 Scripture is clear that the new Jerusalem is coming HERE, ON THIS EARTH, but a restored earth. Even the Revelation 21:16 verse reveals God's Heavenly Cube will EXTEND from the base of the earth where new Jerusalem will be, and go upwards and outwards 12,000 furlongs, forming a cube.

You completely skip what is there.
Skipping the covenant Jews,tracing back to Abraham,then skipping the rapture,does not magically make them disappear.
The bond woman is Islam
The free woman is the Jews and those born again.
You have to factor in romans 9-11.
read it without the non Jew spin.

 

[Luther7]

You are misunderstanding what Apostle Paul showed about that in Galatians 4:22-31 Scripture about the free woman vs. the bondwoman. Your preacher evidently failed to fully explain it. I will do that here, for those interested, not necessarily just for you... to offer a more complete understanding about it.

Gal 4:22-31
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Paul of course refers to Abraham's sons Isaac in whom God's Promise by Faith was given through, vs. Ishmael Abraham's son by his wife's bondservant slave Hagar.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

That "promise" Paul speaks of is the Promise by Faith which God gave first to Abraham with The Gospel of Jesus Christ. In Galatians 3, Paul explains that is the same Promise by Faith that all Christians have also believed, and Paul uses Isaac as being the son represented by the "freewoman".

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

The old covenant, is also what the sons of Ishmael (Arabs) recognized, i.e., the law of Moses. That old covenant represented bondage, as no one could be perfect in keeping the law. It could not save one's soul, even though Paul said the law is good, as it points to righteousness and was to serve as a pointer to the need for Christ's coming per The New Covenant.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Paul in the above is referring to this present world Jerusalem and the orthodox Jews who still try to keep the old covenant, as they reject Jesus of Nazareth as the prophesied Messiah.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

That Jerusalem which is above is the Heavenly Jerusalem that will be established WHERE? Of course it is in the Heavenly right now with The Father and The Son, but WHERE does Revelation 21 reveal its final resting place will be?

Rev 21:1-3
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God."
KJV

In final, the Jerusalem that is free, which Paul spoke of, is to come down to this earth, out of Heaven, and The Father also will dwell with us, ON THIS EARTH, meaning this SAME EARTH HE WILL RESTORE TO ITS FORMER GLORY.


Gal 4:27-31
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Paul points to the allegory in Isaiah 54, which I have tried to explain to brethren several times. The barren woman represents those who remain faithful waiting for Jesus to return. But the married wife represents those who fall away to the false-Messiah that will come first. Those of Faith are represented by the "chaste virgin" idea by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11, and in final will have more children (i.e., the Gentile believers joined with God's chosen elect).

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

To this day, BOTH... radical sons of Ishmael (Arabs) who follow the law of Moses and Mohammed, along with unbelieving Jews, work against those in Christ Jesus.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

In Summary:
The fact that those in Christ are represented by the FREE woman, with the Heavenly Jerusalem that will eventually come down to this earth out of Heaven, means we await Christ's future return and the glory of the world to come. We await that, instead of THIS present world time and today's Jerusalem on earth, which is in bondage still.

This means a MAJOR FUTURE CHANGE FOR THE EARTHLY JERUSALEM THAT EXISTS ON EARTH TODAY.

It is NOT ABOUT US GETTING RAPTURED TO HEAVEN. That Revelation 21 Scripture is clear that the new Jerusalem is coming HERE, ON THIS EARTH, but a restored earth. Even the Revelation 21:16 verse reveals God's Heavenly Cube will EXTEND from the base of the earth where new Jerusalem will be, and go upwards and outwards 12,000 furlongs, forming a cube.

Revelation 21:1-4:
"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth......for the former things have passed away.”

I condensed these verses to make my point that the new heavens and earth are "new". The former things ( this earth age) are passed away. That means FOREVER. Nowhere do we read of a temporal thousand years in Revelation 21.

 

[PinSeeker]

It is NOT ABOUT US GETTING RAPTURED TO HEAVEN. That Revelation 21 Scripture is clear that the new Jerusalem is coming HERE, ON THIS EARTH, but a restored earth.

Agreed.

...the Revelation 21:16 verse reveals God's Heavenly Cube will EXTEND from the base of the earth where new Jerusalem will be, and go upwards and outwards 12,000 furlongs, forming a cube.

The exact cubic measurements may be the exact dimensions of the city, but more likely represent the fullness, completeness and perfection of the city rather than the physical dimensions of it. As you know, I'm sure, the numbers 10, 12, and 1,000 are used throughout the Bible to represent these qualities rather than actual numbers, especially in John's Revelation. Like, for example, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 and the 1,000 of Revelation 5, 9, 13, and 20.

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[Davy]

Revelation 21:1-4:
"1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth......for the former things have passed away.”

I condensed these verses to make my point that the new heavens and earth are "new". The former things ( this earth age) are passed away. That means FOREVER. Nowhere do we read of a temporal thousand years in Revelation 21.

Ah... now why did you go and do something like that, ADDING a doctrine of men called Amillennialism to end of what you are saying?

It is the doctrine of men called Amillennialism that is NOWHERE written of in God's Word. The future "thousand years" reign by Lord Jesus was first mentioned in Psalms 2; it just does not use the term "thousand years". You Amillennialists have a "thousand years" over-focus taboo in your minds, which shows deception by men's false traditions.

 

[PinSeeker]

Ah... now why did you go and do something like that, ADDING a doctrine of men called Amillennialism to end of what you are saying?

<chuckles> I didn't. I guess you're just reading that into my post because you know that's where I stand. But I didn't. I actually agreed with you... mostly, anyway... regarding what you posted, Davy. My goodness.

The future "thousand years" reign by Lord Jesus was first mentioned in Psalms 2; it just does not use the term "thousand years".

That's Psalm 2 (no second 's'), not Psalms 2... There are not multiple second Psalms, but only one... <smile>

But regarding Psalm 2. Davy, if you don't see the nations raging and the peoples plotting in vain, and the kings of the earth setting themselves and the rulers taking counsel together against the Lord and His Anointed (Jesus, Who is right now seated at the right hand of the Father and thus ruling from heaven), saying, "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us" right now, you are not seeing reality for what it is. Even despite this reality, He Who sits in the heavens laughs, and the Lord holds ~ not "will hold" but holds, which is absolutely present tense ~ them in derision. One day, yes, "He will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in His fury..." For now, though, we do (and they likewise do) serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling, and we kiss the Son. In this way we are blessed because we take refuge in Him.

You Amillennialists have a "thousand years" over-focus taboo in your minds, which shows deception by men's false traditions...

Not even sure what you mean by this... "Over-focus taboo"...? I mean, you agree, I'm sure, that Revelation 20 mentions the millennium, the thousand years, so we can't just disregard it... But if I understand you correctly, Davy, I would say the very same thing to you. This obsession you have is... Ugh, I mean, it's idolatry, really, and some other not-so-good things...

Hope you had a very merry Christmas and that the Lord blesses you throughout the coming year. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

Agreed.


The exact cubic measurements may be the exact dimensions of the city, but more likely represent the fullness, completeness and perfection of the city rather than the physical dimensions of it. As you know, I'm sure, the numbers 10, 12, and 1,000 are used throughout the Bible to represent these qualities rather than actual numbers, especially in John's Revelation. Like, for example, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 and the 1,000 of Revelation 5, 9, 13, and 20.

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

I believe what Revelation 21:16 says is meant literally.

Rev 21:16
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
KJV

That means a CUBE.

The Holy of Holies in Solomon's temple was in the shape of a cube.

So just because fleshy minded man has a hard time grasping how the future new Jerusalem's height can extend upwards the same as its length and width, that is the flesh trying limit what GOD is able to do.

 

[Davy]

<chuckles> I didn't. I guess you're just reading that into my post because you know that's where I stand. But I didn't. I actually agreed with you... mostly, anyway... regarding what you posted, Davy. My goodness.

I didn't write that to you bro. I was speaking that to Luther7 from Vineland.

So... are YOU Luther7 also?

 

[Davy]

That's Psalm 2 (no second 's'), not Psalms 2... There are not multiple second Psalms, but only one... <smile>

What do you call this then?

Ps 2
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against His anointed, saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

4 He That sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall He speak unto them in His wrath, and vex them in His sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, "Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of Me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
KJV

The time for that "rod of iron" to manifest by Lord Jesus will only happen in the future when He returns to this earth and takes reign over all... nations. He did not do that for His 1st coming. It is for His future 2nd coming.

 

[PinSeeker]

I believe what Revelation 21:16 says is meant literally.

I know. <smile> I do, too, though, just not... woodenly. <smile>

The Holy of Holies in Solomon's temple was in the shape of a cube.

Yes it was, Absolutely. A perfect cube. Sure.

So just because fleshy minded man has a hard time grasping how the future new Jerusalem's height can extend upwards the same as its length and width, that is the flesh trying limit what GOD is able to do.

In principle, Davy, even these "fleshly minded men" would say its height is the same as its length, but say that speaks of the complete, perfect, even symmetrical quality of it rather than its mere physical dimensions, which is to put limits on it in the same way you would (falsely) accuse me of.

I didn't write that to you bro.

I know. I don't care. <smile> Bro. <smile>

What do you call this then?

Ummm, Psalm 2... <smile>

Ps 2...

The time for that "rod of iron" to manifest by Lord Jesus will only happen in the future when He returns to this earth and takes reign over all... nations.

Not sure what you think this "rod of iron" is, but He is reigning now, Davy... seated at the right hand of God. And we who are born again of the Spirit and have been raised from death to life in Christ and are seated with Him in the heavenly places, as Paul says in Ephesians 2. He is reigning over all nations as indicated in Romans 15:8-12 ~ particularly "Isaiah says, 'The root of Jesse will come, even He Who arises to rule the Gentiles; in Him will the Gentiles hope" ~ where He has all authority in heaven and on earth. He is also reigning over the church, functioning through His Word and Spirit, and is actively involved in the lives of believers.

In the present, Christ is seated above all rule, authority, power, and dominion, who still are very active in this world, these evil powers. But He rules over them, seated at the right hand of God, invisibly performing His influence while they have some sway on the earth.

But, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22–24, one great day, "(t)hen comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power." So yes, then, THEN Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the Father, and God will be all in all, and through Christ, and through his body ~ his people ~ God will reign forever and ever in the New Heavens and the New Earth, and His people will be “from every tribe and [tongue] and people and nation,” whom Christ has made “a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth” forever and ever (Revelation 5:9–10). And that will be, of course, His eternal reign, which of course will have no end.

As I have asked of you and several other posters here, Who is your King, Davy? Who is ~ is, not "will be" ~ your King? Who is the King of kings and Lord of lords?

He did not do that for His 1st coming. It is for His future 2nd coming.

He did. He said so Himself. And Paul says it in Ephesians 1:20... "the immeasurable greatness of (God's) power toward us who believe, according to the working of His great might that He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come." The only thing we can possibly say is, His reign does not look like we want it to look... yet. <smile> But one day we will see how it was all along... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Luther7]

Ah... now why did you go and do something like that, ADDING a doctrine of men called Amillennialism to end of what you are saying?

It is the doctrine of men called Amillennialism that is NOWHERE written of in God's Word. The future "thousand years" reign by Lord Jesus was first mentioned in Psalms 2; it just does not use the term "thousand years". You Amillennialists have a "thousand years" over-focus taboo in your minds, which shows deception by men's false traditions.

2 Peter 3:10-13:
10 But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements, burning with heat, shall be dissolved, both the earth and the works that are in it shall be burned up. 11 Therefore, seeing that all these things shall be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens, being set of fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements, burning with heat, shall melt? 13 But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

The "day of the Lord" was understood as meaning the Lord's second coming for hundreds of years by the Church. The " literal " interpretation of a millennial kingdom on this current sin- cursed earth has no Biblical support.

You may think it does because the seminaries, pulpits and Bible studies have been infected with the teachings of the modern day Pharisees with their front man, C.I. Scolfield and his study Bible, introduced around 1909.

The Bible is a spiritual book that is understood by those having the mind of Christ ( 2 Corinthians 2). The Words that God speak are Spirit ( John 6:63). It certainly should not be a surprise then for scripture to have dual meaning, literal and figurative ( As the Strong's Concordance will attest to).

The book of Revelation is a highly allegorical book. John did receive the vision to write it " in the Spirit" ( Revelation 1:10). Therefore we should not be surprised that even numbers have spiritual meaning and can represent something broader in scope. God uses the phrase " a thousand years", generally speaking, to represent a period of time.

Even in our society we may say something like " it would take a thousand years to finish this job". What are we saying? We are emphasizing the fact that it is going to take a long time to finish the job.

There are other examples of how God uses the number " thousand" and the phrase " thousand years" in other parts of the Bible ( besides the "one verse doctrine" in Revelation 20).

As a Christian, I want to search out a matter. We should never be content with someone else explaining what God is saying to us in His word and not looking into it ourselves ( with the guidance of the Holy Spirit).

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ah... now why did you go and do something like that, ADDING a doctrine of men called Amillennialism to end of what you are saying?

It is the doctrine of men called Amillennialism that is NOWHERE written of in God's Word. The future "thousand years" reign by Lord Jesus was first mentioned in Psalms 2; it just does not use the term "thousand years". You Amillennialists have a "thousand years" over-focus taboo in your minds, which shows deception by men's false traditions.

They are outside God's word and unreachable.
I have 3 of them on ignore.
They need their own separate forum.
Nobody is going to get anywhere with them.
It is like they read a totally different bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Matthew 24:38-39:
For just as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they didn't know a thing until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man.

I don't understand what you are getting at. These verses teach an element of f surprise for the unsaved.

That's like saying the setting, of Acts one, "like manner," has nothing to do with the second coming, when "like manner " is directly pointing TO THE SETTING.

 

[Davy]

I know. <smile> I do, too, though, just not... woodenly. <smile>

I don't know what you mean by "woodenly". Either one believes God's Word as written, or they don't. Now... I can understand if God has not given someone understanding in His Word, and that's why they don't believe what it says, and that's why they default to men's doctrines instead. They are blinded, and have not The Holy Spirit.

Yes it was, Absolutely. A perfect cube. Sure.


In principle, Davy, even these "fleshly minded men" would say its height is the same as its length, but say that speaks of the complete, perfect, even symmetrical quality of it rather than its mere physical dimensions, which is to put limits on it in the same way you would (falsely) accuse me of.

Oh... no, no, no. Understanding Revelation 21 that it is speaking literally, of a heavenly cube according to specific dimensions, is NOT limiting God or anything. It is merely His determination based on His perfect numbers. And specific dimensions can be seen manifesting again and again in the future Millennial "sanctuary" described in detail in Ezekiel 40 thru 47. Not my fault that you have yet to study that in Ezekiel, but instead likewise with the doctrines of men try to apply some mystical meaning to those making them non-physical.

 

[Davy]

Not sure what you think this "rod of iron" is, but He is reigning now, Davy... seated at the right hand of God. And we who are born again of the Spirit and have been raised from death to life in Christ and are seated with Him in the heavenly places, as Paul says in Ephesians 2. He is reigning over all nations as indicated in Romans 15:8-12 ~ particularly "Isaiah says, 'The root of Jesse will come, even He Who arises to rule the Gentiles; in Him will the Gentiles hope" ~ where He has all authority in heaven and on earth. He is also reigning over the church, functioning through His Word and Spirit, and is actively involved in the lives of believers.

I'm certain... you well know how I interpret that "rod of iron" and when it is for. You just don't care what God's Word says about it, because you'd rather believe a bunch of garbage from men's theories. Jesus made it easy to know when that "rod of iron" is for, and who it is for, per what He told the saints of the seven Churches in Revelation 2.


Rev 2:24-28
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.
KJV

The phrases Jesus said like, "till I come", "and keepeth My works unto the end", are simple phrases in English that point directly to the future when Jesus' 2nd coming happens, an event that even deceived Preterists await.

And that "power over the nations", and "he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father," is a quote from Psalms 2, a direct pointer to the future event when The Father will sit Jesus as KING upon His Holy Hill of Zion in Jerusalem, on earth, at Christ's future 2nd coming.

For one to try and claim that is happening now, today, means they disregard not just the simplicity of God's Word, but the simplicity of the English language also.

 

[Davy]

The "day of the Lord" was understood as meaning the Lord's second coming for hundreds of years by the Church. The " literal " interpretation of a millennial kingdom on this current sin- cursed earth has no Biblical support.

A Premillinnial understanding of the future "thousand years" reign by Christ is for AFTER... His future 2nd coming, which means NOT of this present world time. How is it that you have not understood that as written in God's Word? Not only in Rev.20, but also in Zech.14, Isaiah 24:22, Psalms 2, etc.

 

[Davy]

2 Peter 3:10-13:
10 But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements, burning with heat, shall be dissolved, both the earth and the works that are in it shall be burned up. 11 Therefore, seeing that all these things shall be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens, being set of fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements, burning with heat, shall melt? 13 But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

HOW... does that above Scripture of 2 Peter 3:10-13 relate to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the 'change' to the "spiritual body" on the "last trump", and "at the twinkling of an eye"?

And HOW does that all relate to those leftovers of Zechariah 14 that will have gone up against Jerusalem on the last day of this present world, and when Jesus does return on the "day of the Lord", those leftovers then after Christ's return are shown there being made to come up to Jerusalem from 'year to year' to worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles? How is it they will still be alive?

Just what TYPE of body are those of the "resurrection of damnation" that Lord Jesus said will come forth on the day of His future return, per John 5:28-29? Why do men's doctrines teach against what Jesus said there about ALL... in the graves coming forth on that day by His voice, either to the "resurrection of life", or to the "resurrection of damnation"?

It is obvious per other related Bible Scripture that the destruction of man's works off this earth per 2 Peter 3:10-13 cannot be understood in an 'absolutist' bubble. In 2 Peter 3, he was teaching us about 3 world earth ages. This present world earth age we are in today is the 2nd one, and it is preserved unto destruction by fire.

Was God's destruction of man's works off this earth in Noah's day a destruction of the whole... earth into some asteroid belt, causing God to re-create this earth all over from scratch? No. God simply cleansed the SURFACE of this earth. He is going to do it again, except... He promised not to use waters of a flood again to do it, but will use His consuming fire instead. That will burn men's works off this earth, while leaving the things of His creation, which is an idea Apostle Paul showed in Hebrews 12:25-29.

Those 1 Cor.15 Scriptures by Apostle Paul are directly related to that destruction on the "day of the Lord" which Peter mentioned. All... peoples still alive in the flesh will be 'changed' at the twinkling of an eye to the "spiritual body". That future event will end man's time in flesh bodies. Our spirit body with soul is what will manifest on that day, as fast as one can blink the eye. And that will apply to all... peoples still alive, not only those of Christ's Church. And the resurrection of the dead will also happen on that day, the resurrection body type actually being that "spiritual body" that Paul taught.

Many struggle with this because they feel their flesh can be a permanent home. It is not, nor will it ever be. The future change and resurrection is to our spirit body with soul, not our flesh body. Our flesh body is temporary, and is of this present world, not the world to come.