A recent session I had with Chatgpt pertaining to some of the Discourse

[TribulationSigns]

Waiting.

By all means, keep praying and wait for God’s answer. Having refused the love of the truth, you will have to continue waiting for spiritual understanding, Lord willing.

 

[covenantee]

By all means, keep praying and wait for God’s answer. Having refused the love of the truth, you will have to continue waiting for spiritual understanding, Lord willing.

List all of the non-Olivet instances of non-literal Judaea in NT Scripture.

Waiting.

 

[jeffweeder]

List all of the non-Olivet instances of non-literal Judaea in NT Scripture.

Waiting.

Somehow the citizens of this nonliteral Judea actually found themselves captive amongst the nations...,

LK 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by [hostile] armies, then understand [with confident assurance] that her complete destruction is near. 21 At that time, those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city (Jerusalem) must get out, and those who are [out] in the country must not enter the city; 22 for these are days of vengeance [of rendering full justice or satisfaction], so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For great trouble and anguish will be on the land, and wrath and retribution on this people [Israel]. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (completed).

Historical fact.

 

[ewq1938]

Somehow the citizens of this nonliteral Judea actually found themselves captive amongst the nations...,

LK 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by [hostile] armies, then understand [with confident assurance] that her complete destruction is near. 21 At that time, those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city (Jerusalem) must get out, and those who are [out] in the country must not enter the city; 22 for these are days of vengeance [of rendering full justice or satisfaction], so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For great trouble and anguish will be on the land, and wrath and retribution on this people [Israel]. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (completed).

Historical fact.

Oh? When did all things get fulfilled? Historical fact? Sounds like Full Preterism heresy.

"so that all things which are written will be fulfilled."

At best, and VERY slim, that AD70 was a type and shadow and not the true fulfillment.

 

[jeffweeder]

Oh? When did all things get fulfilled? Historical fact? Sounds like Full Preterism heresy.

"so that all things which are written will be fulfilled."

At best, and VERY slim, that AD70 was a type and shadow and not the true fulfillment.

That was not the point of my post.
Not a full preterist, I think you should know that about me by now.

Happy new year to you.

 

[ewq1938]

That was not the point of my post.
Not a full preterist, I think you should know that about me by now.

Sure but it's talking about all things being fulfilled so clearly not a match to AD70 events.

Happy new year to you.

You too.

 

[jeffweeder]

Sure but it's talking about all things being fulfilled so clearly not a match to AD70 events.

I was identifying the people of Judea as the actual Jews, who suffered a very real attack and exile in 70ad to the nations.
Deuteronomy 28 remarkably foretold that the Israelis would not find rest over there either. The lesson to be learned for them is Jesus of Nazareth makes all the real everlasting lasting difference.

You too.

 

[rwb]

First...

Revelation 11:1-3

• And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
• But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
• And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Do you understand what does the "reed like unto a rod" represented and for what purpose? Where is this Holy Temple of God told John to measure exactly? What about the altar? Worshippers therein?

And you also need to explain who is the court that is without the temple represents? And why God will give this up to the Gentiles? Who are the Gentiles in God's eye while the HOLY city tread underfoot for 42 months? Do you honestly think all of these have occurred before the ministry of Two Witnesses, humm? Answer all the questions above and explain this biblically.

The measuring is indeed for a purpose! To show the efficiency/efficacy of the cross. The temple of God, and altar, and them that worship therein, along with the court that is left out all represent the spiritual habitation of the Kingdom of God in heaven, that on earth is represented as the Church. As you know the Kingdom of God, called the Church has never been pure and completely undefiled. There has always been a mixture of both good and evil within during this time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through the Church.

The protective hand of God will not allow His Kingdom to become altogether polluted through evil, and numbers those who are/shall be eternally secure in Him. God allows unbelieving Gentiles who are among Israel of God to grow together with His people during this time symbolized a thousand years. The reason He allows this is to use evil to test/try His people that their faith might grow. God has always used evil to bring about good.

The measured part of the spiritual Kingdom of God called Church and not the court is because only those who truly belong are the temple of God, living under the blood of the Lamb the altar, and true worshippers, having God's protection, assuring the life we receive in Him is eternal. But those on the outside, the court, who are still part of the Covenant people are not counted among those who are assured of God's protecting hand and shall in the end be cast out of His Kingdom.

Matthew 13:30 (KJV) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 8:12 (KJV) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 13:41-42 (KJV) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

In the beginning of the New Covenant era the spiritual Kingdom of God started small. In a parable Christ likens it to a tiny mustard seed, that in time grows into the greatest among herbs, and becomes a tree. The good Olive Tree that becomes full when the last Gentile of faith is grafted in with those of true faith from Old so all Israel of faith with both faithful Jew and Gentiles together shall be saved by the Deliverer who shall come out of Mt Zion from above.

Matthew 13:31-32 (KJV) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

That which began with only a small remnant was 144,000 of all the tribes of the Children of Israel of Old. But in Rev 21 John is shown in a vision the full bride, the Lamb's wife as "that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

As you point out the spiritual city in heaven is measured, and it is represented by the number 144,000, that symbolizes all the tribes of the children of Israel of Old that occupied the city in the beginning of the New Covenant age, then added to that number is an innumerable multitude. How can 144,000 symbolize the remnant from Israel of Old and also symbolize an innumerable multitude of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues? The number 144,000 represents the fullness of the number of saints spiritually belonging to the Kingdom of God from any period of time. Whether 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel, or an innumerable multitued. The city that shall come down from heaven after this first heaven and earth passes away was, is and always shall be foursquare (144,000). First the bride of Christ is but a small remnant, symbolized as 144,000 in number and also when the bride of Christ grows into the innumerable multitude with the remnant, still the city is 144,000 in size even though the numbers within it grew. The city built by God in heaven does not change, only the numbers spiritually entering there does, beginning with a small remnant and growing to an innumerable multitude. 144,000 represents the size of the city that when built by God before creation "lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth". The fullness of the city from both Old and New is first a remnant, then an innumerable multitude, but the city itself, built by God in heaven is always 144,000 with a mere remnant, as well as 144,000 when filled with an innumerable multitude. Because the city being built large enough to accommodate all who would enter was from the beginning to the end foursquare in length and breadth (144,000).

Revelation 21:16 (KJV) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Revelation 21:22-27 (KJV) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[covenantee]

Somehow the citizens of this nonliteral Judea actually found themselves captive amongst the nations...,

LK 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by [hostile] armies, then understand [with confident assurance] that her complete destruction is near. 21 At that time, those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city (Jerusalem) must get out, and those who are [out] in the country must not enter the city; 22 for these are days of vengeance [of rendering full justice or satisfaction], so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For great trouble and anguish will be on the land, and wrath and retribution on this people [Israel]. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (completed).

Historical fact.

Yeah.

But as we see, historical fact is anathema to gnostic psychosis.

So we instead get typical cultic responses of evasion and obfuscation.

Sad indeed.

 

[covenantee]

Oh? When did all things get fulfilled? Historical fact? Sounds like Full Preterism heresy.

"so that all things which are written will be fulfilled."

At best, and VERY slim, that AD70 was a type and shadow and not the true fulfillment.

The Judaean Christians' flight occurred prior to 70 AD.

Were they guilty of "preterism heresy"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh? When did all things get fulfilled? Historical fact?

Do you ever look at scripture in context? The context of Luke 21:20-24 is in relation to all things being fulfilled that were written in relation to the destruction of Jerusalem, not literally all things. Hello? It's a historical fact that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, so all things written about that were indeed fulfilled.

Sounds like Full Preterism heresy.

Sounds like you like to foolishly make false accusations.

"so that all things which are written will be fulfilled."

At best, and VERY slim, that AD70 was a type and shadow and not the true fulfillment.

How long have you been studying scripture (I assume many years) and you still don't know how to interpret it in context? Sad.

 

[Davidpt]

Do you ever look at scripture in context? The context of Luke 21:20-24 is in relation to all things being fulfilled that were written in relation to the destruction of Jerusalem, not literally all things. Hello? It's a historical fact that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, so all things written about that were indeed fulfilled.


.

Obviously though, it is meaning all things written in the prophets in the OT, since it would be absurd that it can be meaning anything written in the NT when not everything was even written in the NT yet when Jesus spoke those words and Luke later gave an account of it. Therefore, what prophecies in the OT do you think are pertaining to 70 AD? There will have to be numerous prophecies in the OT pertaining to 70 AD in order to make sense of that statement--For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

How many prophecies from the OT do you think you can produce that are pertaining to 70 AD? Can't wait to see what you don't come up with.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Obviously though, it is meaning all things written in the prophets in the OT, since it would be absurd that it can be meaning anything written in the NT when not everything was even written in the NT yet when Jesus spoke those words and Luke later gave an account of it.

Obviously. I didn't say otherwise.

. Therefore, what prophecies in the OT do you think is pertaining to 70 AD? There will have to be numerous prophecies in the OT pertaining to 70 AD in order to make sense of that statement--For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The obvious one is Daniel 9:26-27, but I believe Deuteronomy 28:15-68 and Leviticus 26:32-33 pertain to 70 AD, also. But, why does it matter which prophecies in the OT I think relate to 70 AD? What difference does that make? Why are you trying to argue with me about this when you interpret Luke 21:20-24 the same way I do? Or have you changed your interpretation of Luke 21:20-24 since we last talked about it? The last I knew, you believed it is about what happened in 70 AD.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Somehow the citizens of this nonliteral Judea actually found themselves captive amongst the nations...,

LK 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by [hostile] armies, then understand [with confident assurance] that her complete destruction is near. 21 At that time, those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city (Jerusalem) must get out, and those who are [out] in the country must not enter the city; 22 for these are days of vengeance [of rendering full justice or satisfaction], so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For great trouble and anguish will be on the land, and wrath and retribution on this people [Israel]. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (completed).

Historical fact.

Ahhh, I see that you are using the Amplified Bible. It is not a true translation. More of commentary-paraphrase hybrid garbage with interpretive decision. No wonder someone like Jeffweeder use that for his interpretation - literally. Sad!

Let go to God's Word:

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)
(20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
(21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
(22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
(23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke 21:20–24 is NOT describing the Roman siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, nor is it addressed to unbelieving Jews of the first century. Christ is prophesying to New Testament believers concerning the spiritual judgment of the visible church prior to His Second Coming.

In Scripture, Jerusalem and Judea function typologically as the covenant people of God. Under the New Covenant, that identity no longer refers to ethnic Israel or the physical land of Judaea, but to the New Testament congregation (Gal. 4:26; Heb. 12:22; Rev. 3:12). Christ is therefore warning Christians—not Jews—of an approaching desolation within the church.

The “armies” surrounding Jerusalem are not Roman legions, but the forces of deception: false christs, false prophets, and the mystery of iniquity infiltrating and overtaking the visible church (Matt. 24:24; 2 Thess. 2:3–10). This is the abomination of desolation, where false doctrines with lying signs and wonders that replace the true Christ in God’s holy place—the church.

When believers see this corruption plainly established, they are commanded to flee. This flight is not physical, nor to literal mountains. Scripture consistently interprets such language spiritually. To “flee to the mountains” means to separate from the unfaithful congregation, to come out of apostate churches, and to seek refuge in God Himself, His Word, and faithful fellowship wherever it remains (Rev. 18:4; Ps. 121:1–2).

“The days of vengeance” are God’s judgment upon His own house. This judgment falls first on the church because it was entrusted with the gospel and yet became disobedient (1 Pet. 4:17). The imagery of woman with child and nursing infants describes a congregation that can no longer nourish spiritual life—a church barren of truth, unable to feed its children with the milk of the Word since the days of salvation has already ended after all Elect has been secured before Satan is loosened, Revelation 7:1-4.

Verse 24 describes spiritual captivity, not physical exile. An unfaithful church is given over to deception, becoming indistinguishable from the unbelieving world—trampled underfoot by the Gentiles (unsaved), that is, ruled by worldly thinking, false doctrine, and spiritual blindness. This condition persists until the times of the Gentiles (eg. little season) are fulfilled, immediately preceding Christ’s return.

Therefore, Luke 21:20–24 is not about Jewish mothers fleeing Roman swords, nor about a first-century military event. It is a solemn warning from Christ about the apostasy and judgment of the New Testament congregation, calling His true people to discernment, separation, and faithfulness to His Word until the end.

Reading Luke 21 as a Roman history lesson rather than a warning to Christ’s church replaces spiritual discernment with hindsight and calls that “exegesis.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The measuring is indeed for a purpose! To show the efficiency of the cross. The temple of God, and altar, and them that worship therein, along with the court that is left out all represent the spiritual habitation of the Kingdom of God in heaven, that on earth is represented as the Church. As you know the Kingdom of God, called the Church has never been pure and completely undefiled. There has always been a mixture of both good and evil within during this time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven through the Church.

No... I am asking you with specific question: What is the purpose of measuring with the reed like a rod? Do you understand this purpose? Don't say, "measuring is for a purpose" This doesn't make sense or answer my question. Think about how and why John are commanded to measure the temple, altar and worshippers.

Then we will deal with the rest of your post. I am out for the day

 

[TribulationSigns]

Not a full preterist, I think you should know that about me by now.

No matter how you spin it, any preterist who bases their teaching on a 70 AD physical temple, may it be full, partial, covenantal, etc. is still preaching false doctrine. Biblical Fact!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ahhh, I see that you are using the Amplified Bible. It is not a true translation. More of commentary-paraphrase hybrid garbage with interpretive decision. No wonder someone like Jeffweeder use that for his interpretation - literally. Sad!

Let go to God's Word:

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV)
(20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
(21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
(22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
(23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

LOL. As if the Bible was written in King James English. The KJV translation of the passage supports what he said as well, so it doesn't matter which of the translations you look at.

Luke 21:20–24 is NOT describing the Roman siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70

Yes, it is. It describes exactly what happened then. Jesus was spot on with His 100% accurate prophecy but you are too lacking in discernment to see it.

, nor is it addressed to unbelieving Jews of the first century. Christ is prophesying to New Testament believers concerning the spiritual judgment of the visible church prior to His Second Coming.

Nonsense.

In Scripture, Jerusalem and Judea function typologically as the covenant people of God.

Nonsense. The heavenly Jerusalem does, but nowhere is Judea ever referred to typologically as the covenant people of God.

Under the New Covenant, that identity no longer refers to ethnic Israel or the physical land of Judaea, but to the New Testament congregation (Gal. 4:26; Heb. 12:22; Rev. 3:12). Christ is therefore warning Christians—not Jews—of an approaching desolation within the church.

And that would be particularly difficult for nursing mothers and pregnant women how? LOL. Your hyperspiritualization of literal text is just sad. You have no discernment when it comes to differentiating between literal and figurative text.

The “armies” surrounding Jerusalem are not Roman legions, but the forces of deception: false christs, false prophets, and the mystery of iniquity infiltrating and overtaking the visible church (Matt. 24:24; 2 Thess. 2:3–10). This is the abomination of desolation, where false doctrines with lying signs and wonders that replace the true Christ in God’s holy place—the church.

When believers see this corruption plainly established, they are commanded to flee. This flight is not physical, nor to literal mountains. Scripture consistently interprets such language spiritually. To “flee to the mountains” means to separate from the unfaithful congregation, to come out of apostate churches, and to seek refuge in God Himself, His Word, and faithful fellowship wherever it remains (Rev. 18:4; Ps. 121:1–2).

And we should pray that we don't have to flee during the winter or on the Sabbath because...? LOL. There is no reason at all to not take Jesus literally in that passage. What He described is exactly what happened in 70 AD. Is that just a coincidence?

“The days of vengeance” are God’s judgment upon His own house. This judgment falls first on the church because it was entrusted with the gospel and yet became disobedient (1 Pet. 4:17). The imagery of woman with child and nursing infants describes a congregation that can no longer nourish spiritual life—a church barren of truth, unable to feed its children with the milk of the Word since the days of salvation has already ended after all Elect has been secured before Satan is loosened, Revelation 7:1-4.

Verse 24 describes spiritual captivity, not physical exile. An unfaithful church is given over to deception, becoming indistinguishable from the unbelieving world—trampled underfoot by the Gentiles (unsaved), that is, ruled by worldly thinking, false doctrine, and spiritual blindness. This condition persists until the times of the Gentiles (eg. little season) are fulfilled, immediately preceding Christ’s return.

Therefore, Luke 21:20–24 is not about Jewish mothers fleeing Roman swords, nor about a first-century military event. It is a solemn warning from Christ about the apostasy and judgment of the New Testament congregation, calling His true people to discernment, separation, and faithfulness to His Word until the end.

Reading Luke 21 as a Roman history lesson rather than a warning to Christ’s church replaces spiritual discernment with hindsight and calls that “exegesis.

It's so ironic that you think interpreting the passage correctly shows a lack of spiritual discernment when you are clearly the one very lacking in spiritual discernment.

 

[rwb]

No... I am asking you with specific question: What is the purpose of measuring with the reed like a rod? Do you understand this purpose? Don't say, "measuring is for a purpose" This doesn't make sense or answer my question. Think about how and why John are commanded to measure the temple, altar and worshippers.

Then we will deal with the rest of your post. I am out for the day

I've told you what I believe the purpose for measuring was. You obviously don't agree, so instead of keeping me guessing what you believe I have not rightly understood, why not simply tell me what you believe the purpose is?

 

[rwb]

Yeah.

But as we see, historical fact is anathema to gnostic psychosis.

So we instead get typical cultic responses of evasion and obfuscation.

Sad indeed.

Do you believe that when Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God, it replaced the physical Holy Temple in Jerusalem that would never be called holy unto God again?

 

[covenantee]

Do you believe that when Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God, it replaced the physical Holy Temple in Jerusalem that would never be called holy unto God again?

Amen. The Kingdom of God indwells the People of God (Luke 17:21) who together comprise the Temple of God (Ephesians 2:21,22; 1 Peter 2:5).

There is no other temple.