Of what value is retribution against humankind to God? - Love your enemies?

[Windmill Charge]

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

Strange how you devalue and reject the idea that Jesus's love for those who hate him is not far greater than we know.

The creator, became a baby, grew up as a man, taught us for a few years and was brutally killed as part of a plan to save mankind.
You do not see this as love.

You want God to be love even more those who hate him and then to forcible change them so they love the activities found in heaven.

Make up your mind is God just in judging people on how they relate to him and his laws or is God just in compelling those who hate God to start loving him. ( what do you think heaven will be like? certainly not like life on earth. )

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

Strange how you devalue and reject the idea that Jesus's love for those who hate him is not far greater than we know.

On the contrary.
But what does the church say?
"Believe or burn."

Make up your mind is God just in judging people on how they relate to him and his laws or is God just in compelling those who hate God to start loving him. ( what do you think heaven will be like? certainly not like life on earth. )

I maintain that anyone who claims to hate God hasn't met Him yet.
The love of God is irresistible.

 

[Adventageous]

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation of humankind,
what would be the value of retribution against humankind? What does it accomplish?

Three views of the final judgment:
- Damnationism (eternal punishment)
- Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked)
- Universalism (ultimate redemption)

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

[

Annihilationism is the correct (scriptural) one. - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Job_21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.​

​

Job_31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?​

ETC - Eternal Conscious Torment is unjust, non-merciful, and ultimately places God in the position of sustaining sin.

Universalism - is unjust (no justice), and mercy would mean nothing.

As for your question, God is love (1 John 4:8,16 KJB), and in that love is justice / mercy together (Exo. 20:6-7; 34:6-7 KJB).

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

​

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

​

As it was in the great flood, so it will be in the great fire to come.

7 Bible Commentary, 935-936 - SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7 (Ellen G. White), page 935

“... [page 935] His mercy was not weakness, but a terrible power to punish sin because it is sin, yet a power to draw to it the love of humanity.” - EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7​

The Great Controversy (1911), by Ellen G. White, page 543

​

“... [page 543] “In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah’s time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain’s and Noah’s day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace.” - The Great Controversy​

The destruction (annihilation) of the finally impenitent (satan, all his followers) is loving, to them, and to the rest of the redeemed, and unfallen universe. It is also done in the justice & mercy of JEHOVAH Elohiym. The trial of sin and its results will have been fully witnessed by all, and the verdict will Amen God's character.

 

[St. SteVen]

Universalism - is unjust (no justice), and mercy would mean nothing.

Not as I understand it.
Every nation, leader and individual will stand in judgment/evaluation.
Complete restoration will be the goal. Which cannot happen without justice.
Universalism doesn't mean no accountability.

 

[St. SteVen]

Annihilationism is the correct (scriptural) one.

All three views have biblical support.
You can't dismiss any one of them on that basis. IMHO

Can you really say that there is no biblical support for eternal conscious torment?

 

[Adventageous]

All three views have biblical support.
You can't dismiss any one of them on that basis. IMHO

Can you really say that there is no biblical support for eternal conscious torment?

No, they do not.
Yes, I can, and did.
Yes, see link,

 

[Adventageous]

Not as I understand it.
Every nation, leader and individual will stand in judgment/evaluation.
Complete restoration will be the goal. Which cannot happen without justice.
Universalism doesn't mean no accountability.

You are not the final authority, scripture is, and therefore "as [you] understand it" means very little in comparison with the final authority in all matters of faith and practice - the scriptures.
Yep, and Jesus said, Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Nope.
Yes, it does.

 

[Windmill Charge]

But what does the church say?

Repeating the teaching of Jesus.
Matt7: + 13:24-30, are about those who reject Jesus being cast into the fire. Parables that tell a significant story. There is a consequence in not believing in Jesus.

The love of God is irresistible.

So you will graciously permit God to forcible change people into what they in life despised and rejected, yet you condemn God for permitting people to suffer the consequences of their choice.

 

[Jack]

Annihilationism is the correct (scriptural) one. - Sincerely Dead Dying, To Know Jesus by brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Job_21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.​

​

Job_31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?​

ETC - Eternal Conscious Torment is unjust, non-merciful, and ultimately places God in the position of sustaining sin.

Universalism - is unjust (no justice), and mercy would mean nothing.

As for your question, God is love (1 John 4:8,16 KJB), and in that love is justice / mercy together (Exo. 20:6-7; 34:6-7 KJB).

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

​

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

​

As it was in the great flood, so it will be in the great fire to come.

7 Bible Commentary, 935-936 - SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7 (Ellen G. White), page 935

“... [page 935] His mercy was not weakness, but a terrible power to punish sin because it is sin, yet a power to draw to it the love of humanity.” - EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7​

The Great Controversy (1911), by Ellen G. White, page 543

​

“... [page 543] “In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah’s time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain’s and Noah’s day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace.” - The Great Controversy​

The destruction (annihilation) of the finally impenitent (satan, all his followers) is loving, to them, and to the rest of the redeemed, and unfallen universe. It is also done in the justice & mercy of JEHOVAH Elohiym. The trial of sin and its results will have been fully witnessed by all, and the verdict will Amen God's character.

Rev 20 They will be TORMENTED FOREVER!

 

[quietthinker]

Strange how you devalue and reject the idea that Jesus's love for those who hate him is not far greater than we know.

The creator, became a baby, grew up as a man, taught us for a few years and was brutally killed as part of a plan to save mankind.
You do not see this as love.

You want God to be love even more those who hate him and then to forcible change them so they love the activities found in heaven.

Make up your mind is God just in judging people on how they relate to him and his laws or is God just in compelling those who hate God to start loving him. ( what do you think heaven will be like? certainly not like life on earth. )

Do you judge a person with Downs syndrome who smiles and dribbles too much as worthy of rejection?

God knows we didn't choose to be lobbed on a sinful planet with all its attendant rebellion, illnesses, poor reasoning powers, greed and oppression.

 

[St. SteVen]

So you will graciously permit God to forcible change people into what they in life despised and rejected, yet you condemn God for permitting people to suffer the consequences of their choice.

The view of the "Gentleman God" who honors human will above His own.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV In regards to "free-will", I have often heard the argument that God, being the gentleman...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[St. SteVen]

So you will graciously permit God to forcible change people into what they in life despised and rejected, yet you condemn God for permitting people to suffer the consequences of their choice.

I'm not sure which is worse.
Your view of humankind, or your view of God.

 

[Windmill Charge]

I'm not sure which is worse.
Your view of humankind, or your view of God.

My view is biblical, Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

All, that is everyone, is a sinner.
That is they/we have missed the mark that God set of obedience to his laws.

As to my view of God, your view of a God who will compel people to change is dreadful.

 

[Jack]

I'm not sure which is worse.
Your view of humankind, or your view of God.

Which God are you referring to? I don't think you have a clue.

 

[quietthinker]

My view is biblical, Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

All, that is everyone, is a sinner.
That is they/we have missed the mark that God set of obedience to his laws.

As to my view of God, your view of a God who will compel people to change is dreadful.

Yes, we're all sinners, (removed)
In our journey of discovery many errors in understanding are made and it behooves us not to cut the legs off a fellow journey man/ woman because he/she isn't in the same place we are.
That said we are encouraged to have sufficient smarts to recognise when an individual is actually peddling a misrepresentation of God as revealed/ displayed in Jesus.

 

[St. SteVen]

Of what value is retribution against humankind to God? - Love your enemies?​

No matter what your view is on the final judgement/evaluation
of humankind,what would be the value of retribution against humankind?
What does it accomplish?

Three views of the final judgment:
- Damnationism (eternal punishment)
- Annihilationism (destruction of the wicked)
- Universalism (ultimate redemption)

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

 

[Jack]

Of what value is retribution against humankind to God? - Love your enemies​

Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
What should He do with His own?

He's gonna BURN the Bible attackers who refuse to repent, FOREVER!

Dead ahead:

Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be SCREAMING and gnashing of teeth.

 

[quietthinker]

He's gonna BURN the Bible attackers who refuse to repent, FOREVER!

Dead ahead:

Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be SCREAMING and gnashing of teeth.

The return of Jesus is a rescue mission for his people because humankind is about to implode by its own hand.
Here is how I picture it, you might see it differently.

The return of Jesus could take some time ie, from when first it comes to human awareness. Something with be noticed from a distance approaching the Earth. It will be interpreted as an alien invasion from outer space. The nations will train their nuclear weapons towards it, eventually using them. People will be freaking. It will set in motion the destruction of the planet with all its habitants ... apart from those who will meet him in the air as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 describes.

Yes there will be burning from nuclear arsenals which man has used.

Maybe you see this explanation as fantastical and maybe it is. In any case this is how I see the HELL you refer to so often Jack.

John 10:10 tells us it is the thief who has come to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus says his mission is to give abundant life.

 

[Behold]

Of what value is retribution against humankind to God? - Love your enemies?​

Hell and The Lake of Fire (Eternal Damnation) are a resulf of dying in your sins, never forgiven.
So, God's Justice falls on the one who waited till after they died to "find out if i was really saved".......or it falls on the one who never was born again before they died...... (Its the same situation) and both find this verse posted below..., as their ETERNAL (damnation) situation..

Notice reader that this verse says that the wrath of God (Against your sin) REMAINS on you, right now and after you die.
And for how long?

A.) For as long as God continues to exist is how long God's JUDGMENT against your sin will remain on you.

If you dont want that situation, then here is the solution.

"all who call on the name of Jesus (by faith believing) shall be Saved " = from God's WRATH.
-

New International Version Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. New Living Translation And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.” English Standard Version Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. Berean Standard Bible Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.” Berean Literal Bible The one believing in the Son has eternal life; but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” King James Bible He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. New King James Version He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” New American Standard Bible The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” NASB 1995 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” NASB 1977 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Legacy Standard Bible He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Amplified Bible He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.” Berean Annotated Bible Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God {Theou} remains on him.” Christian Standard Bible The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. Holman Christian Standard Bible The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. American Standard Version He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. Contemporary English Version Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever. English Revised Version He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. GOD'S WORD® Translation Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, he will see God's constant anger." Good News Translation Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment. International Standard Version The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him. NET Bible The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him. New Heart English Bible Whoever believes in the Son has everlasting life, but whoever refuses to believe in the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Webster's Bible Translation He that believeth on the Son, hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Weymouth New Testament He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life, but God's anger remains upon him.

 

[Jack]

The return of Jesus is a rescue mission for his people because humankind is about to implode by its own hand.
Here is how I picture it, you might see it differently.

For His people, yes!

The return of Jesus could take some time ie, from when first it comes to human awareness. Something with be noticed from a distance approaching the Earth. It will be interpreted as an alien invasion from outer space. The nations will train their nuclear weapons towards it, eventually using them. People will be freaking. It will set in motion the destruction of the planet with all its habitants ... apart from those who will meet him in the air as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 describes.

Yes there will be burning from nuclear arsenals which man has used.

Maybe you see this explanation as fantastical and maybe it is. In any case this is how I see the HELL you refer to so often Jack.

John 10:10 tells us it is the thief who has come to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus says his mission is to give abundant life.

The most important doctrine in the NT, the EVERLASTING Hell Fire! BILLIONS of humans who don't believe in Hell will burn FOREVER in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus said so.

Revelation 20:15
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.