The deconstructing of the law in the New Testament

[St. SteVen]

Well firstly, christians do know in their minds God does not want them to steal, commit adultery, take the Lord's name in vain, covet murder, and they would say in their hearts they do not want to do those things. So whichever way you look at it, what was once engraved in stone is now in the hearts and minds of believers
Of course its still a different covenant, under the new one ''law'' has been transferred from an external law and is now an internal law, and under the new covenant:
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone who believeth Rom10:4

I see your point but scripture doesn't support it.
If Christ is the end of the law, why do you bring it along?

I think you are mistaken about what laws from God are written on our hearts.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a]
we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

[saved by grace 101]

It's not a NEW covenant if the OLD covenant is written on your heart.

Luke 22:20 NIV
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying,
“This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a]

Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Ephesians 2:14-15 NIV
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and
has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

So you think it wrong for a believer to know in their mind God does not want them to steal, murder lie, take his name in vain? And it would be wrong for a believer in their heart not to want to do those things, because then they would be returning to the old covenant?

 

[St. SteVen]

A sure sign that something is sin is if you feel guilt for committing it.
I have never felt guilt for not observing the Jewish sabbath. (old covenant)

Does the inclusion of the Sabbath prove that the Ten Commandments were for Israel alone?

- To whom were the Ten Commandments given? Deuteronomy 5:3-4 NIV It was not with our ancestors[a] that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. - To whom was the Sabbath...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[saved by grace 101]

I see your point but scripture doesn't support it.
If Christ is the end of the law, why do you bring it along?

I think you are mistaken about what laws from God are written on our hearts.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a]
we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Im afraid scripture completely supports it:
Do we then make void the law by faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law Rom3:31
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS(not full stop) for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
Yep the law WAS our guardian, absolutely, there is no more law with condemnation, it is gone, all that remains is God's desire we do not murder, steal, commit adultery, take His name in vain etc. God will not abolish that!!

 

[St. SteVen]

So you think it wrong for a believer to know in their mind God does not want them to steal, murder lie, take his name in vain? And it would be wrong for a believer in their heart not to want to do those things, because then they would be returning to the old covenant?

No.
Stealing, murder and lying were sins before the old covenant law was given.
And they are still sins today. Sin is ALSO a transgression of the law. (not vice versa)

 

[saved by grace 101]

No.
Stealing, murder and lying were sins before the old covenant law was given.
And they are still sins today. Sin is ALSO a transgression of the law. (not vice versa)

It doesnt matter how you reason it, what was once engraved in stone exists today as you have just stated

 

[St. SteVen]

Im afraid scripture completely supports it:
Do we then make void the law by faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law Rom3:31
Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS(not full stop) for everyone who believeth Rom10:4
Yep the law WAS our guardian, absolutely, there is no more law with condemnation, it is gone, all that remains is God's desire we do not murder, steal, commit adultery, take His name in vain etc. God will not abolish that!!

It would help if you knew what the law was.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[saved by grace 101]

It would help if you knew what the law was.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

Well that's easy. In rom 3:20-30 Paul stresses believers have no righteousness of obeying the law. They have righteousness apart form law. They have no justification of works? Which law is he writing about? Obviously the siniatic law. What is the last verse of the chapter? Do we then make void the law by faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law

 

[St. SteVen]

It doesnt matter how you reason it, what was once engraved in stone exists today as you have just stated

What did the Apostle say about the law engraved in letters on stone?
The ministry that brought condemnation and death. The letter kills.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily
at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

 

[St. SteVen]

Well that's easy. In rom 3:20-30 Paul stresses believers have no righteousness of obeying the law. They have righteousness apart form law. They have no justification of works? Which law is he writing about? Obviously the siniatic law. What is the last verse of the chapter? Do we then make void the law by faith? God forbid: Yea, we establish the law

So, why are you pushing the law?

 

[saved by grace 101]

What did the Apostle say about the law engraved in letters on stone?
The ministry that brought condemnation and death. The letter kills.

2 Corinthians 3:6-8 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily
at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

Absolutely, that law carried the penalty for transgression. That doesnt exist today for born again believers, all that exists now is what is holy, just and good. God will never abolish what is holy, just and good

 

[saved by grace 101]

So, why are you pushing the law?

Law as we all naturally understand law to mean has been abolished, as I previously told you. Jesus died for all our sins, past, present and future. It is what was written in the law that remains, that is all, what is holy, just and good. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a believer knowing in their mind God does not want them to steal, lie, take his name in vain, covet, and there is nothing wrong at all with a believer in their heart not wanting to do those things. That is not bad, it is good, there is no condemnation in what was written in the law now being in our hearts: Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

 

[St. SteVen]

Absolutely, that law carried the penalty for transgression. That doesnt exist today for born again believers, all that exists now is what is holy, just and good. God will never abolish what is holy, just and good

Interesting fact. Jesus explained what He said in Matthew 5:17 after His resurrection. See below.
It was not the law that He did not come to abolish, it was the Books of the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

 

[saved by grace 101]

Interesting fact. Jesus explained what He said in Matthew 5:17 after His resurrection. See below.
It was not the law that He did not come to abolish, it was the Books of the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

It is a great pity you cannot see any difference between a law as we all naturally understand law to mean and what we have now. Law as we naturally understand it comes on two parts, what is written in the law and the penalty for transgression. Christ paid our penalty, so we have no more law as you would naturally understand it. Christ is our justification before the father, not law keeping. Nothing wrong at all with desiring in our hearts to live as God wants us to live, free from condemnation

 

[St. SteVen]

Absolutely, that law carried the penalty for transgression. That doesnt exist today for born again believers, all that exists now is what is holy, just and good. God will never abolish what is holy, just and good

That sounds like a lot of double-talk.
- The law doesn't exist today
- Only what is holy, just and good.
- What is holy, just and good?
- The law.
- Seriously?

 

[saved by grace 101]

That sounds like a lot of double-talk.
- The law doesn't exist today
- Only what is holy, just and good.
- What is holy, just and good?
- The law.
- Seriously?

I understand you couldnt countenance changing your mind. In romans 7:7-11 Paul is relating how one of the TC condemned him. In the next verse he states the law is holy, just and good, I will write it out for you if you like, he is speaking of the law he is writing about

 

[St. SteVen]

It is a great pity you cannot see any difference between a law as we all naturally understand law to mean and what we have now.

Many Christians don't understand my position on the law. So I'm not surprised.

 

[saved by grace 101]

That sounds like a lot of double-talk.
- The law doesn't exist today
- Only what is holy, just and good.
- What is holy, just and good?
- The law.
- Seriously?

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom7:7-12

In verses 7-11 Paul is writing of his inability to obey one of the TC, in the next verse he states the law is holy and the commandment holy, just and good. What is your explanation of this? Paul has suddenly shot to a different law in the middle of his writing on the subject?

 

[saved by grace 101]

Many Christians don't understand my position on the law. So I'm not surprised.

Read again to verse 13, verse 12 relates to the law he is writing about, one of the TC
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

 

[St. SteVen]

I understand you couldnt countenance changing your mind. In romans 7:7-11 Paul is relating how one of the TC condemned him. In the next verse he states the law is holy, just and good, I will write it out for you if you like, he is speaking of the law he is writing about

No need. I am familiar with that chapter. (and chapter 8)
The two most confusing chapters in the Bible about the law.

Romans 7:4-6 NIV
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ,
that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead,
in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law
were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.