The deconstructing of the law in the New Testament

[saved by grace 101]

No need. I am familiar with that chapter. (and chapter 8)
The two most confusing chapters in the Bible about the law.

Romans 7:4 NIV
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ,
that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead,
in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Absolutely, you die to righteousness of obeying the law, that kind of law. I can give you a personal testimony of verses 7-11 if you would like it. In the evangelical church of my youth I tried to attain to Heaven as Saul the pharisee did and I got the same resut he did. Nevertheless verse 12 is shown to relate to the TC

 

[St. SteVen]

Absolutely, you die to righteousness of obeying the law, that kind of law. I can give you a personal testimony of verses 7-11 if you would like it. In the evangelical church of my youth I tried to attain to Heaven as Saul the pharisee did and I got the same resut he did. Nevertheless verse 12 is shown to relate to the TC

We seem to be going in circles.

 

[saved by grace 101]

We seem to be going in circles.

You did ask what law is holy just and good according to Paul, I can do even further exegesis if you require it

 

[saved by grace 101]

No need. I am familiar with that chapter. (and chapter 8)
The two most confusing chapters in the Bible about the law.

Romans 7:4-6 NIV
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ,
that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead,
in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law
were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law
so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

So in verse 7-11 one of the TC brought death/condemnation to Paul. Yet in verse 12 he states the law is holy just and good. In verse 13 he asks: Was then that which is good made death unto me? Well what made death unto him? He told us, one of the TC. Is that which is GOOD made death unto me, confirmation verse 12 relates to the TC

 

[Brakelite]

While I agree with you in principle, the law that God gave to the Israelites alone is done away with.

Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Ephesians 2:14-15 NIV
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and
has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

There were different categories of law within the whole context of law given. There were civil laws that governed how the nation was to be governed organisationally as a civil nation. There were health laws including diet and sanitary instructions. There were the laws of course associated with worship. Everything regarding the priesthood, the sacrificial services, the annual feast days some of which were ceremonial Sabbaths (not to be confused with the weekly Sabbaths that were honoured not as celebration or types of Christ's ministry, but as a memorial of creation and redemption), and of course there was the law of God which He wrote with His own finger on the tables of stone, which included the weekly Sabbath.
Which law categories from the above do you think it more likely that God would do away with? And why?

 

[Brakelite]

Well what made death unto him? He told us, one of the TC

I'm not so sure I agree with you. The human problem has never been with the law, but how to obey it, and God's problem is how to reverse that situation. In other words, the problem that God has (which He has resolved through Christ) from the beginning has been determined to accomplish was to provide a means by which man can find strength and power to obey the law, and that through faith in Christ. The prime function of the holy Spirit? To give power for man to overcome sin. Sin is that which brings death. The law is that which legally confirms the sentence, but Christ came to undo all that. Not by taking away the law, but by taking away sin, and providing the means by which we may live in obedience.

 

[saved by grace 101]

I'm not so sure I agree with you. The human problem has never been with the law, but how to obey it, and God's problem is how to reverse that situation. In other words, the problem that God has (which He has resolved through Christ) from the beginning has been determined to accomplish was to provide a means by which man can find strength and power to obey the law, and that through faith in Christ. The prime function of the holy Spirit? To give power for man to overcome sin. Sin is that which brings death. The law is that which legally confirms the sentence, but Christ came to undo all that. Not by taking away the law, but by taking away sin, and providing the means by which we may live in obedience.

If a thirteen year old who had just reached puberty asked you if they could attain to Heaven if they didn't obey the TC how would you respond? I imagine you would reply ''No''
Let us suppose the young teenager understands what is entailed in obeying the TC, their eyes are wide open, Before them stands the tenth commandment: Thou shalt not covet, thou shalt not desire what is not yours to desire/thou shalt not lust/thou shalt not dwell on any impure thought.
I imagine the young teenager would be petrified at the idea of impure thoughts.
'''I don't want to go to hell, I must not dwell on any impure thought'''
Heaven or hell, for them can be decided upon by this issue. What could be a more terrifying thought? Can you escape thinking of what you fear, or, will thoughts of what you fear consume you?
In the following Paul is speaking of when the law came to him as a young pharisee, at the age of thirteen I believe when a young Jewish lad would make a commitment to God:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence/strong sexual desire. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.



12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Rom7:7-13

 

[Brakelite]

I've reposted the following several times on this site, and still believe it is appropriate to this topic...

3 Spiritual laws that govern life.
"For I delight in...
Law One: ..........The law of God
after the inward man".....(Romans 7:22)
Paul has nothing but love and respect for God's law. He considers it 'holy, just and good'. It is Paul's earnest and deepest desire to honour that law, and to keep all the commandments,
" but I see another law in my members, warring against the law (of God) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to...." (v23cont.)
Law Two:..........."The law of sin...
"...which is in my members.
Paul delights in obedience, but finds that in the carnal nature resides a law which makes it impossible, the law of sin. Paul confesses his wretchedness and guilt. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" he cries.
"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin." (vs 25)
But if Paul is bound by the law of sin, despite his best intentions to obey the law of God, how then can he overcome? The answer is just 2 verses later. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For...

Law Three:..........the law of the Spirit of life...
in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:1,2.
Three laws. The law of God which is holy, just, and good.
The law of sin which binds the carnal man making it impossible to obey the law of God.
The law of the Spirit of life which through the grace and power of God makes it possible for the reborn child of God to obey the law of God, if he relies on and walks after the Spirit and not after the flesh.
The law of sin has no power over them who are completely surrendered to Christ. That is why elsewhere Paul can assert that to those who walk in the Spirit they are transformed by the renewing of their minds, and are recreated into the image of the character of Christ. A character that is obedient and a mind (like Christ's) which delights in the law of God and rejoices that by faith in the power and grace of God he may be obedient to all the commandments.

 

[Brakelite]

If a thirteen year old who had just reached puberty asked you if they could attain to Heaven if they didn't obey the TC how would you respond? I imagine you would reply ''No''
Let us suppose the young teenager understands what is entailed in obeying the TC, their eyes are wide open, Before them stands the tenth commandment: Thou shalt not covet, thou shalt not desire what is not yours to desire/thou shalt not lust/thou shalt not dwell on any impure thought.
I imagine the young teenager would be petrified at the idea of impure thoughts.
'''I don't want to go to hell, I must not dwell on any impure thought'''
Heaven or hell, for them can be decided upon by this issue. What could be a more terrifying thought? Can you escape thinking of what you fear, or, will thoughts of what you fear consume you?
In the following Paul is speaking of when the law came to him as a young pharisee, at the age of thirteen I believe when a young Jewish lad would make a commitment to God:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence/strong sexual desire. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom7:7-11

Of course, all of this hinges on a person taking their faith very seriously, and is in earnest as to what Heaven or hell hinges on

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

You are taking a very legalistic view, one which ironically is presumed to be the adventist mainstream biblical worldview, which in your post above repeats. See previous post above.

 

[Brakelite]

If a thirteen year old who had just reached puberty asked you if they could attain to Heaven if they didn't obey the TC how would you respond?

"There is no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "

 

[saved by grace 101]

You are taking a very legalistic view, one which ironically is presumed to be the adventist mainstream biblical worldview, which in your post above repeats. See previous post above.

If someone asked you if they could attain to Heaven if they did not obey the TC, how would you respond?
Who tells people they only have to obey a watered down version of the TC?
If you tell someone they must obey the TC, do you alongside that tell them you yourself transgress them?

Paul gave Rom7:7-11 as an example of why he had to die to the law as he put it(verse4) As far as Paul was concerned, under righteousness of obeying the law, you can be condemned by your thoughts!!

 

[St. SteVen]

Which law categories from the above do you think it more likely that God would do away with? And why?

That's a good question.
According to the biblical passages I have read, it would be all the categories that were
given by God specifically to the Israelites through Moses.

This would not include God's law of human conscience which was given at the Fall, (as I understand it)

1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.

 

[saved by grace 101]

"There is no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "

As a minister of fifty years stated: If we all followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all''
We all succumb to the flesh at times alas, and then we transgress God's moral laws

 

[saved by grace 101]

"There is no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
Sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law Rom7:5
Therefore:
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14

 

[Brakelite]

As a minister of fifty years stated: If we all followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all''
We all succumb to the flesh at times alas, and then we transgress God's moral laws

That is true. So, coming to realisation of our weakness, what then is the solution?

 

[Brakelite]

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56
Sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law Rom7:5
Therefore:
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14

Again, I disagree. Sinful passions are aroused through our own fleshly lusts. What the law does is reveal it to us who are blind to the reality of sin because of the deceptive nature thereof.

 

[saved by grace 101]

"There is no condemnation for them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "

Incidentally, I was raised in a church that stressed obeying God's laws. And, I knew sin was sin, whether it be on the inside or the outside. Paul's words in Rom7:7-11 I could recite word for word of my testimony in that church. The more I feared hell because of my imperfections, the worse those imperfections got, on the inside. It happens all the time. I know of christian counsellors who spend much time with distraught people who end up consumed by all manner of sin because of what they were told in churches

 

[saved by grace 101]

That is true. So, coming to realisation of our weakness, what then is the solution?

This is how to grow in holiness.

The believer is called to look away from themselves and to Christ. While you are doing this, you cannot be seeking to wilfully follow after the flesh, it is one or the other. Whilst you are looking to Christ, and trusting him to bring you to live an evermore holy life, via the sanctification of the Spirit, you will transgress the letter of the law for that letter kills(2Cor3:6) But, as long as we are looking to Christ, we will grow in holiness.

The more we look to Christ, and rely on the Spirit, the more the fruits of the Spirit grow in our lives(Gal5:22) Against that fruit there is no law(verse23) For that fruit is the embodiment of how God wants you to live your life.

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh Phil3:3

Putting your confidence in self, rather than God, will not lead to holy living.

 

[Brakelite]

Incidentally, I was raised in a church that stressed obeying God's laws. And, I knew sin was sin, whether it be on the inside or the outside. Paul's words in Rom7:7-11 I could recite word for word of my testimony in that church. The more I feared hell because of my imperfections, the worse those imperfections got, on the inside. It happens all the time. I know of christian counsellors who spend much time with distraught people who end up consumed by all manner of sin because of what they were told in churches

I understand that. Get it totally. It's a shame that so many have suffered from such a deceptively warped view of the gospel.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Again, I disagree. Sinful passions are aroused through our own fleshly lusts. What the law does is reveal it to us who are blind to the reality of sin because of the deceptive nature thereof.

Paul is quite specific. Sin took occasion of one of the TC to arouse all manner of concupiscence in him
He states in Rom 7:4-6 we must die to the law in order to be bear fruit for God. Sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law. We are released from the law and serve in the new way of the spirit not the old way of the written code?
WHICH LAW?
Well in the next five verses he gives a personal example form his own life as to which law he is talking about. The example given is one of the TC. And verse 8 confirms verse 5, the command not to covet aroused sinfull passions in him