"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

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saved by grace 101

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I'll repeat:
NO ONE is going to hell because they didn't understand doctrine or a teaching of THE CHURCH...
the church that has been around from the beginning...not one that was invented about 200 years ago.

God IS the one true God.
There is ONLY ONE GOD.

No Christian disputes this.

Which is why I brought up the Trinity.
It's the TRINITY that you do not accept.

This thread is about the I AM, so I WILL address that.

Jesus said BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS....I AM. John 8:58

Lot's check out the context of WHY Jesus said this.


Before John 8:58 Jesus is speaking to the Jews.
He made important statements to them,,,including:
YOUR ARE FROM BELOW - I AM FROM ABOVE verse 23
YOU ARE OF THIS WORLD - I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD verse 23

YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS UNLESS YOU BELIEVE I AM HE. verse 24
Jesus said I AM HE...
Who would that be?


Jesus refers to Himself as THE SON OF MAN.....verse 28
This title is referncing
Daniel 7:13-14
13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.


Many can be referred to as "son of God" Jesus Himsel is THE Son of God.
However, only to Jesus is attributed the title of SON OF MAN...

Jesus always does the things that are pleasing to God.
Because HE AND GOD FATHER have the same nature and will.

In the Garden Jesus prayed NOT MY WILL BUT YOURS BE DONE.
And did Jesus go to the cross or not?
Yes sir. Jesus went to the cross because His HUMAN nature did not want to....
but His DIVINE nature did exactly what the Father's nature was in agreement with.

Jesus was human here on earth.
But He was divine from eternity.

Jesus is NOT a created being and John makes the clear thoughout his gospel.


Verse 40
John 8:40
40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.


WHAT did Abraham not seek to do?


Verse 42
Jesus states He PROCEEDED FORTH from the Father.
Proceeding forth means Jesus was ALWAYS PART OF THE FATHER.

John 1:1
THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:14
THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US.



Verse 51
IF ANYONE KEEPS MY WORD HE WILL NOT SEE DEATH.
So if I keep the word of A MERE MAN,,,,I will not see death for one reason or another?
Or is it only GOD that can keep us from seeing death?

Verse 52
The Jews understood what Jesus was saying, even though some here might not.
They replied:
NOW WE KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A DEMON...
Again they were charging Him with blasphemy.


Verse 56
YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM REJOICED TO SEE MY DAY.

And HERE is where Jesus replies
BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS....I AM.

And what does this mean?
Let's let the Jews themselves reply...

They picked up stones to throw at Him.

Because THEY understood what Jesus was claiming.

He wasn't claiming to be 1,800 years old as was stated by another member on this thread....
Jesus was claiming to be BEFORE Abraham.

BEFORE everything because everything was created by Him and nothing exists that was not created by Him.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities -all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.



I AM

Jesus always was and always will be.
Jesus is the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA.

I AM
I WAS
I WILL BE
OK then, let's discuss ''I AM''
Who actually uttered the words from the bush? The angel. (Acts7:35)So, God spoke through the angel who uttered the words I AM
God also spoke through Christ. So, if the fact Christ uttered the words ''I AM'' is proof he should be referred tro as God Himself, for consistency, you must also refer to God as an angel, as he also uttered the words ''I AM''
Even the JWs don't go that far!
And BTW, I do not accept an equal Trinity, and no one is going to be cast into hell for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, even though some on the internet may reason that with their theological minds
 

amigo de christo

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Amen....and one needs to first of all be born of the Spirit and have the Holy Spirit to be able to understand, who leads us into all truth. And then let no man steal their crown through lies and deceptions. Follow Christ alone, not men and churches or denominations.
forward ...............................march . onwards in the glorious Lord . Another day to Point to THE CHRIST JESUS
and all things He did say .
FOLLOW CHRIST , and not men . Hope IN GOD thus in HIS CHRIST
 

Taken

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"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

Absolute Truth.

“I AM”… IS Creator
“I AM”… IS Maker
“I AM”… IS Truth
“I AM”… IS Supreme Power
“I AM”… IS Perfect Holiness
“I AM”… IS without Beginning or Ending.

Absolutely “I AM” … “IS HE”.

Abram was Created.
Abram was Made an Alive Earthly man-KIND of being.
Abram was Made Perfected “Abraham”, BY the Power of “I AM”.

The Same “Perfection” IS Offered to All of Earthly manKind.

Nothing Forced…
ManKINDS FREEWILL Option… Take or Reject “I AM’s” Offering.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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amigo de christo

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Amen....and one needs to first of all be born of the Spirit and have the Holy Spirit to be able to understand, who leads us into all truth. And then let no man steal their crown through lies and deceptions. Follow Christ alone, not men and churches or denominations.
What is it that the mormon , jw , Rcc and others all have in common .
THEY SIT UNDER MEN and THEIR INSTIUTIONS , and all have led this people astray .
Its time for the bible to be read again and done so daily . Be stirred up by those pure and holy reminders .
 
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amigo de christo

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"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

Absolute Truth.

“I AM”… IS Creator
“I AM”… IS Maker
“I AM”… IS Truth
“I AM”… IS Supreme Power
“I AM”… IS Perfect Holiness
“I AM”… IS without Beginning or Ending.

Absolutely “I AM” … “IS HE”.

Abram was Created.
Abram was Made an Alive Earthly man-KIND of being.
Abram was Made Perfected “Abraham”, BY the Power of “I AM”.

The Same “Perfection” IS Offered to All of Earthly manKind.

Nothing Forced…
ManKINDS FREEWILL Option… Take or Reject “I AM’s” Offering.

Glory to God,
Taken
It is written in torah and the prophets
That GOD alone stated I AM the FIRST and the LAST and there is no other God .
No prophet ever dared to use that title . No king , not even david dared to use that title .
FOR TO GOD IT BELONGS .
In revelation JESUS says I AM THE FIRST and THE LAST . aint that something .
Because . HE IS THE WORD OF GOD and THE WORD was with GOD in the beginning and the Word was God .
Its simple if we just read the bible without all these molestations of men gone wrong .
 
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amigo de christo

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"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

Absolute Truth.

“I AM”… IS Creator
“I AM”… IS Maker
“I AM”… IS Truth
“I AM”… IS Supreme Power
“I AM”… IS Perfect Holiness
“I AM”… IS without Beginning or Ending.

Absolutely “I AM” … “IS HE”.

Abram was Created.
Abram was Made an Alive Earthly man-KIND of being.
Abram was Made Perfected “Abraham”, BY the Power of “I AM”.

The Same “Perfection” IS Offered to All of Earthly manKind.

Nothing Forced…
ManKINDS FREEWILL Option… Take or Reject “I AM’s” Offering.

Glory to God,
Taken
Yep .
And by HIM were all things made and without him was nothing created . HE IS THE WORD OF GOD
And in the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with GOD and the Word was God . real simple .
 
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saved by grace 101

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I'll repeat:
NO ONE is going to hell because they didn't understand doctrine or a teaching of THE CHURCH...
the church that has been around from the beginning...not one that was invented about 200 years ago.

God IS the one true God.
There is ONLY ONE GOD.

No Christian disputes this.

Which is why I brought up the Trinity.
It's the TRINITY that you do not accept.

This thread is about the I AM, so I WILL address that.

Jesus said BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS....I AM. John 8:58

Lot's check out the context of WHY Jesus said this.


Before John 8:58 Jesus is speaking to the Jews.
He made important statements to them,,,including:
YOUR ARE FROM BELOW - I AM FROM ABOVE verse 23
YOU ARE OF THIS WORLD - I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD verse 23

YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS UNLESS YOU BELIEVE I AM HE. verse 24
Jesus said I AM HE...
Who would that be?


Jesus refers to Himself as THE SON OF MAN.....verse 28
This title is referncing
Daniel 7:13-14
13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.


Many can be referred to as "son of God" Jesus Himsel is THE Son of God.
However, only to Jesus is attributed the title of SON OF MAN...

Jesus always does the things that are pleasing to God.
Because HE AND GOD FATHER have the same nature and will.

In the Garden Jesus prayed NOT MY WILL BUT YOURS BE DONE.
And did Jesus go to the cross or not?
Yes sir. Jesus went to the cross because His HUMAN nature did not want to....
but His DIVINE nature did exactly what the Father's nature was in agreement with.

Jesus was human here on earth.
But He was divine from eternity.

Jesus is NOT a created being and John makes the clear thoughout his gospel.


Verse 40
John 8:40
40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.


WHAT did Abraham not seek to do?


Verse 42
Jesus states He PROCEEDED FORTH from the Father.
Proceeding forth means Jesus was ALWAYS PART OF THE FATHER.

John 1:1
THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

John 1:14
THE WORD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US.



Verse 51
IF ANYONE KEEPS MY WORD HE WILL NOT SEE DEATH.
So if I keep the word of A MERE MAN,,,,I will not see death for one reason or another?
Or is it only GOD that can keep us from seeing death?

Verse 52
The Jews understood what Jesus was saying, even though some here might not.
They replied:
NOW WE KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A DEMON...
Again they were charging Him with blasphemy.


Verse 56
YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM REJOICED TO SEE MY DAY.

And HERE is where Jesus replies
BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS....I AM.

And what does this mean?
Let's let the Jews themselves reply...

They picked up stones to throw at Him.

Because THEY understood what Jesus was claiming.

He wasn't claiming to be 1,800 years old as was stated by another member on this thread....
Jesus was claiming to be BEFORE Abraham.

BEFORE everything because everything was created by Him and nothing exists that was not created by Him.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities -all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.



I AM

Jesus always was and always will be.
Jesus is the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA.

I AM
I WAS
I WILL BE
And you are correct, the church has been around since Christ was raised from the dead. And God has never changed his mind, since that time as to who Christ must be titled to inherit eternal life. Yet it was three hundred years after Christ rose from the dead, before the church made official doctrine you must believe Christ is the one true God.
Well there were plenty of believers before that time who did not believe that, I suppose you believe they must all of been cast into hell. Whose fault was it that those who thought they were saved were not? I guess you imagine it was the churches fault for not making official church doctrine what Nicea did, in the NT.
 

amigo de christo

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Whatever TazzJazz

You think I'm going to debate whether or not Jesus is God with a member of a cult religion?

No way.

You can twist scripture however your group brainwashed you to believe.

JESUS IS GOD.

And the I AM statement is not the only evidence.

And if the Pharisees thought Jesus meant that He was 1800 years old...
then, yes, they must have thought He was crazy and deserved the cross.

And
He WOLD HAVE BEEN a crazy man.

Have a good day and think for yourself.
The version of the I am of a jw
sure seems to call jesus an I AINT . have you noticed that .
JESUS said I AM
JESUS also said I AM THE FIRST and the LAST . only they call him the I AINT . not gonna bode well
for a jw , lest it repents of course , On the day of the GREAT I AM .
 

amigo de christo

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cause indeed another jesus cannot save . JESUS can but another jesus is but a pipe dream of men who
desired the idea of salvation and SIN . That jesus is ANOTHER , NOT JESUS .
JESUS never has been or ever will be a ministir of any sin .
Let this new year be a year to Kick rainbow and koran kissing jesus OU TTA the hearts of this people .
May they learn the TRUE BIBLICAL JESUS . See the difference
between the approach of sin . of the biblical JESUS and all his apostels .
They did not ca rry the judge not lets overlook sins card and call evil good and good evil .
Jesus corrected sin and error
And so did the apostels .
 

GodsGrace

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please excuse my mockery , but do remember even elisha mocked the false prophets .
so allow me to mock their false religoin of ecumeinalsim intefaith which its leaders
HAVE said , and have done so on stage for all to hear and all to see .
THEIR WORDS
Our religoin , meaning the christain one , is not better than your religoin , meaning all them false religoins .
We all serve the same GOD differently .
SO now allow me , in the name of so called finding ground
to find some common ground with that statement .
Those folks on that stage do serve the same god as all them other false religoins and atheist do .
BUT IT IS NOT THE GOD of the christain whose faith be IN THE TRUE GOD , THIS IN HIS CHRIST .
They serve another . and the only way to be FREED from his power , from the power of satan , cause that
be their god , IS BY FAITH IN JESUS THE CHRIST . YA GOTS to BELEIVE ON HE WHOM GOD DID SEND .
And lipping His name but having hearts far from him , THAT BE VAIN DEATH faith as well . WE need to bible up and now
I have to say Amigo...that we can debate some nuance or other.
But when we debate BIG issues that have been in the church from THE BEGINNING of Christianity...
then, yes, there's something very wrong and we are to stand up to such wrong teachings of this modern world.
It's just that I'm getting tired of standing up and would like to sit down.

HOW does anyone debate the fact that Jesus is God?
It's incredible.
 
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GodsGrace

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Amen....and one needs to first of all be born of the Spirit and have the Holy Spirit to be able to understand, who leads us into all truth. And then let no man steal their crown through lies and deceptions. Follow Christ alone, not men and churches or denominations.
You know Lizbeth...I used to actually debate with this idea years ago....
I'm just feeling, lately, like it should NOT be necessary!
Think of it....
Two Christians debating whether or not Jesus is God.
ONE of them is NOT a Chrsitian!
 
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GodsGrace

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OK then, let's discuss ''I AM''
Who actually uttered the words from the bush? The angel. (Acts7:35)So, God spoke through the angel who uttered the words I AM
God also spoke through Christ. So, if the fact Christ uttered the words ''I AM'' is proof he should be referred tro as God Himself, for consistency, you must also refer to God as an angel, as he also uttered the words ''I AM''
Even the JWs don't go that far!
And BTW, I do not accept an equal Trinity, and no one is going to be cast into hell for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, even though some on the internet may reason that with their theological minds
The burning bush.

You want to say that THE ANGEL was speaking for God?

OK,,let's go with that.

The angel said to tell the Israelites that I AM is sending the message.
IOW ..... GOD is sending the message.

You DID say that the God was speaking THROUGH the angel.

So I AM is referring to GOD.

Jesus said I AM. Jesus did NOT refer to anyone else.
He said HE is I AM.

I AM = GOD
 

GodsGrace

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And you are correct, the church has been around since Christ was raised from the dead. And God has never changed his mind, since that time as to who Christ must be titled to inherit eternal life. Yet it was three hundred years after Christ rose from the dead, before the church made official doctrine you must believe Christ is the one true God.
Well there were plenty of believers before that time who did not believe that, I suppose you believe they must all of been cast into hell. Whose fault was it that those who thought they were saved were not? I guess you imagine it was the churches fault for not making official church doctrine what Nicea did, in the NT.
You sure are obsessed with hell.

The TRINITY is part of both the OT and the NT.

Those that DID NOT believe that Jesus was God were HERETICS and GNOSTICS.

Why don't you read those that were taught BY THE APOSTLES and learn for yourself what the Apostles taught them?

Here are some of their writings.....

-----------------------------------------------------

Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1
Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.2
Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.3
There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.4
For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.5
Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.6
For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.7
I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.8
Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.9
Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.10
Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.11
Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.12
The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....13
For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.14
Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.15



part 1 of 3
 

GodsGrace

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@saved by grace 101


part 2 of 3


Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.16
He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.17
Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.18
Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.19
Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh.20
Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.21
For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....22



 

GodsGrace

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@saved by grace 101

part 3 of 3

Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,

For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.23
Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.... That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.24
Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other , and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that they are distinct from each other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter...even the Spirit of truth,” thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality?25
As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.26
Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.27
For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, God the Word with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity; but as, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father, so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself.28
For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word.29
Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven, (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name.... He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man. Thus then, too, though demonstrated as God, He does not refuse the conditions proper to Him as man, since He hungers and toils and thirsts in weariness, and flees in fear, and prays in trouble. And He who as God has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow.30
There's much more....
 

saved by grace 101

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The burning bush.

You want to say that THE ANGEL was speaking for God?

OK,,let's go with that.

The angel said to tell the Israelites that I AM is sending the message.
IOW ..... GOD is sending the message.

You DID say that the God was speaking THROUGH the angel.

So I AM is referring to GOD.

Jesus said I AM. Jesus did NOT refer to anyone else.
He said HE is I AM.

I AM = GOD
This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, THROUGH the angel who appeared to him in the bush Acts7:35
Just as, God spoke through Christ
 

saved by grace 101

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@saved by grace 101

part 3 of 3

Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,





Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,





There's much more....
Sorry, Im not interested in your theologians and scholars. My point was, as you should know, it was not made official church policy until 300 years after Jesus died at Calvary Jesus was the one true God, and everyone must believe it. Please try and keep to what has been stated.

BTW
I do know, Tertullian wrote there was a time God could not strictly be called father for there was a time before he bought forth Christ, apart from that I just stick to the bible
 

amigo de christo

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I have to say Amigo...that we can debate some nuance or other.
But when we debate BIG issues that have been in the church from THE BEGINNING of Christianity...
then, yes, there's something very wrong and we are to stand up to such wrong teachings of this modern world.
It's just that I'm getting tired of standing up and would like to sit down.

HOW does anyone debate the fact that Jesus is God?
It's incredible.
Something i learned by God a long long time ago .
Once upon a time there was a man who grew very weary and wore down
with seeing all the continual resistance to Truth , coming from YES those in wool .
He was so wore down with the day in and day out resistance coming f rom these in wool .
Till one day a still small voice came to His conscious and said
YE cannot give the increase . You cannot change them . SIMPLY SPEAK TRUTH
CORRECT any and all error , and who so ever hears amen
and who so ever rejects ITS ON THEM .
BUT DO NOT cease to remind of the Truth , to correct all error seen
For this is how LEAVEN takes over . WHEN the mouth that speaks truth
is silenced , EVIL FILLS THE VOID and FAST .
WE do what we can by the grace of G OD , who so ever hears amen and who so forbears will face
The ALMIGHTY for their denial OF the truth .
So you have to understand two things my friend .
WE cannot give the increase and those who reject TRUTH do so unto their own destruction .
But do not let them wear you down . Speak truth , live by the Truth , never lie and never allow
sin upon this people . Ye shall not hate your neighbor in your heart , YOU shall correct him and not allow sin upon him .
NOW for the BIG problem . And that BIG problem is
That many who run churches and websites WILL NOT FOLLOW the pattern given us by JESUS and the apostels .
FOR THEY are more concerned with LETS GET ALONG and judge not .
THUS r ather than removing folks who accept sins , who do sin and wont repent
and now EVEN THOSE WH O PREACH a false gospel
IT MEANS we gonna see leaven rise . THESE SITES will not remove such people .
THEY WILL NOT correct such people . And that is wh y leaven will take them all over in time .
We just have to simply speak truth and k eep on reminding . cause the leaders of this people
and that includes not just churches but websites , WILL NOT do what ought to be done .
I have watched many sites fall throug hout t he years because they simply hold to a motto of judge not correct not
and remove not , leaven always takes over . IT WILL TAKE Over this site too . I wish , oh how i wish
it wo uld not . BUT IT WILL because folks will not do what JESUS i nstructed and later the apostels instructed
the church to do . ITS ALL about a false love now , false unity , finding common ground
and soon all will merge who did so as ONE peoples and one mind , one heart
INTO THE DARKEST HOUR of rebellion against GOD , CHRIST and the saints that ever has been .
But fear it not . WE WIN FOR JESUS HAS WON . many will be damned . And all we can do
is remind and warn and pray that at least some will hear and repent .
 
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keithr

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Why don't you read those that were taught BY THE APOSTLES and learn for yourself what the Apostles taught them?

Here are some of their writings.....
Here is what the apostle Paul wrote in Colossians 1 (WEB):

(1) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother,​
(2) to the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

Pauls says his letter is from himself and Timothy, and he greets them with the expression "Grace to you and peace from God" and from our Lord Jesus, the Messiah. Now Timothy is not Paul, and likewise Jesus is not our Father - not God. As Paul also wrote, 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (WEB):

(5) For though there are things that are called “gods”, whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords”;​
(6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.​

Paul also frequently used the greeting, "Grace to you, and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:2), and also taught that Jesus' father was also Jesus' God, Ephesians 1:3 (WEB):

(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ;​

as indeed the resurrected Jesus also taught - Revelation 3:12 (WEB)

(12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.​

That's what the apostles taught.

The phrase "God the Father" occurs 14 times in the New Testament. The phrase "God the Son" does not occur at all (nor "God the Holy Spirit"). The Trinity does not occur in the Bible.


Ephesians 1:15-23 WEB
(15) For this cause I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is among you, and the love which you have toward all the saints,​
(16) don’t cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers,
(17) that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him;​
(18) having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,​
(19) and what is the exceeding greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to that working of the strength of his might​
(20) which he worked in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places,​
(21) far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come.​
(22) He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things for the assembly,​
(23) which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.​

1 Corinthians 10:31 WEB
(31) Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.​

1 Peter 4:11 WEB
(11) If anyone speaks, let it be as it were the very words of God. If anyone serves, let it be as of the strength which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

Jesus, our High Priest, prayed this prayer to God - John 17:1-26 (WEB):

(1) Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may also glorify you;​
(2) even as you gave him authority over all flesh, so he will give eternal life to all whom you have given him.​
(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​
(4) I glorified you on the earth. I have accomplished the work which you have given me to do.​
(5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.​
(6) I revealed your name to the people whom you have given me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me. They have kept your word.​
(7) Now they have known that all things whatever you have given me are from you,​
(8) for the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew for sure that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me.​
(9) I pray for them. I don’t pray for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.​
(10) All things that are mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.​
(11) I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are.​
(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name. Those whom you have given me I have kept. None of them is lost, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.​
(13) But now I come to you, and I say these things in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves.​
(14) I have given them your word. The world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.​
(15) I pray not that you would take them from the world, but that you would keep them from the evil one.​
(16) They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.​
(17) Sanctify them in your truth. Your word is truth.​
(18) As you sent me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.​
(19) For their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.​
(20) Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who will believe in me through their word,​
(21) that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.​
(22) The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one;​
(23) I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me.​
(24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.​
(25) Righteous Father, the world hasn’t known you, but I knew you; and these knew that you sent me.​
(26) I made known to them your name, and will make it known; that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.”​

John 12:27-30 WEB
(27) “Now my soul is troubled. What shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this time?’ But for this cause I came to this time.​
(28) Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came out of the sky, saying, “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”
(29) The multitude therefore, who stood by and heard it, said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.”​
(30) Jesus answered, “This voice hasn’t come for my sake, but for your sakes.​

God's name is YHVH (Yahavah). His name is not Jesus (Yeshua); that is His Son's name. Glory be to God Yahavah.

Referring to Lazarus, just before Jesus raised him from the grave, Jesus said, John 11:4 WEB

(4) But when Jesus heard it, he said, “This sickness is not to death, but for the glory of God, that God’s Son may be glorified by it.”​

Romans 15:5-7 WEB
(5) Now the God of perseverance and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,​
(6) that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.​
(7) Therefore accept one another, even as Christ also accepted you, to the glory of God.​
 
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