The Heaven Going Lie - Voting Results

[Hiddenthings]

The Heaven Going Lie

Hi @Marilyn C To avoid derailing the other thread, I’ve started a new one to examine the texts Christians often cite in support of the “heaven-going” belief. Instead of focusing on the many clear biblical passages showing that the grave is the destination for the dead, I thought it would be...

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Interesting we have 50 / 50 split on voting as to whether people believe they go to heaven when they die.

What are the implications for those who are wrong?

The “wrong” belief must have consequences in terms of how people live in this life - some view their walk as a probation in faith tested while others believe in automatic acceptance.

Would teaching about going to heaven have a greater impact on those who hold mistaken beliefs about the afterlife than on those who believe in the resurrection of the whole person?

If someone is wrong about going to heaven, this could provoke fear, anxiety, and urgent reflection, challenging their assumptions about salvation, judgment, and reward. If God were to raise them from the dead, they might become defensive, having neither fully known nor believed in this reality. If a person lived with false confidence and did not struggle to conform to Christ its possible they could be rejected as not knowing Christ and vice versa.

Conversely, if a person’s belief about going to heaven is correct, then the instant anyone faces this reality, their expectations regarding salvation or judgment would immediately be fulfilled, leaving no further uncertainty or anticipation.

I’m interested in people’s perspectives on how being right or wrong about the afterlife affects a believer’s life and the consequences of these beliefs.

 

[Hiddenthings]

There are countless doctrines debated in this forum every day, and I often wonder whether we pause to consider the consequences of being right or wrong on any of them. We know there are consequences, as the Apostles devote so many words to rebuking and warning against error. Yet, I rarely see forum members stop and ask themselves, “What are the consequences of being right or wrong here?”

Take the “Heaven Going” concept, for example, it’s everywhere in media, TV, films, and often repeated by those with little or no real commitment to Christ and the Gospel. Surely, such a belief must carry consequences, yet these are rarely considered.

Consider the assumption that’s made every day: “My friend is in Heaven looking down at me.” I’m sure you’ve heard this countless times in your life. But what if it’s all false? What if the person who is led to believe they go straight to Heaven at death actually remains in the ground and never leaves it? I can’t help but wonder, whose responsibility would that outcome be?

 

[marks]

There absolutely are consequences to misreading Scripture, and to blending Old and New Covenants. And blending Israel and Gentiles in God's prophetic plan.

Those who think they die in this world, and are dead to all worlds until they are resurrected do not rightly divide the Word of God, and to that, yes, there are consequences as error upon error becomes introduced, and even becomes the hill they would die on.

Jesus was clear . . . The one who lives and believes in Him will never die. Why do you not believe this?

Very sad!

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

There absolutely are consequences to misreading Scripture, and to blending Old and New Covenants. And blending Israel and Gentiles in God's prophetic plan.

Those who think they die in this world, and are dead to all worlds until they are resurrected do not rightly divide the Word of God, and to that, yes, there are consequences as error upon error becomes introduced, and even becomes the hill they would die on.

Jesus was clear . . . The one who lives and believes in Him will never die. Why do you not believe this?

Very sad!

Much love!

the one who B ELIEVES IN HIM .
What used to be real simple is no longer beleived b y more and more .
Have i ever warned us to get anyone OUT of anything connected to anything or anyone ecumenical . GET THEM OUT of there .
Many now beleive it dont matter what god ya beleive , what religoin ya follow
JESUS has BEEN DENIED and worse BY E ven many in christendom . THIS will only get worse as the false love increases .
As false love that is of the world has increased in the churches , THE GOSPEL has decreased and is almost
abandoned now . WHEN leaven comes in , when e rror does enter
IF It is not corrected , OH HOW IT DO increase . GET THEM away from an ything ecumenical . And tell them
DO NOT LOOK back , for its all coming down ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .

 

[Hiddenthings]

There absolutely are consequences to misreading Scripture, and to blending Old and New Covenants. And blending Israel and Gentiles in God's prophetic plan.

Those who think they die in this world, and are dead to all worlds until they are resurrected do not rightly divide the Word of God, and to that, yes, there are consequences as error upon error becomes introduced, and even becomes the hill they would die on.

Jesus was clear . . . The one who lives and believes in Him will never die. Why do you not believe this?

Very sad!

Much love!

You’ve had your say, which you’re entitled to. But what if you were to discover that your beliefs are wrong, what then? I’ve already addressed your question in earlier comm's, but for now I’m asking you to consider the consequences. What are they in this life, and at the judgment? It may be that you take a position similar to that of the Universalist, who believes doctrine does not matter and questions the very idea of judgment. They also need to consider the impact of being in the wrong and how that affects their walk in this life.

 

[amigo de christo]

You’ve had your say, which you’re entitled to. But what if you were to discover that your beliefs are wrong, what then? I’ve already addressed your question in earlier comm's, but for now I’m asking you to consider the consequences. What are they in this life, and at the judgment? It may be that you take a position similar to that of the Universalist, who believes doctrine does not matter and questions the very idea of judgment. They also need to consider the impact of being in the wrong and how that affects their walk in this life.

to any and to all who have or might have bought into the idea doctrine dont matter
Though they know it not they have said in their hearts , WHAT GOD INSPIRED and said
DOES NOT MATTER . HE DOES NOT MATTER , let us just hug , get along and find common ground .
A love of darkness and of the world has sprung from its father the dragon
and been given unto his harlot to seduce all tribes , all denominations and to merge all as one
under what they think IS LOVE AND IS GOD . BUT IT THE DEVIL in wool and he knows how to seduce and lie .
GET this people far from any thing and anyone connected to anything ecumenical and do it now
And tell them all DO Not even LOOK back , cause that entire house is coming DOWN on the DAY OF THE LORD .

 

[Hiddenthings]

the one who B ELIEVES IN HIM .
What used to be real simple is no longer beleived b y more and more .
Have i ever warned us to get anyone OUT of anything connected to anything or anyone ecumenical . GET THEM OUT of there .
Many now beleive it dont matter what god ya beleive , what religoin ya follow
JESUS has BEEN DENIED and worse BY E ven many in christendom . THIS will only get worse as the false love increases .
As false love that is of the world has increased in the churches , THE GOSPEL has decreased and is almost
abandoned now . WHEN leaven comes in , when e rror does enter
IF It is not corrected , OH HOW IT DO increase . GET THEM away from an ything ecumenical . And tell them
DO NOT LOOK back , for its all coming down ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .

All of this is written based on the assumption that you are correct. But taking the example of “Heaven Going,” how do you determine whether this belief reflects reality, whether it is true or false?

I can easily demonstrate that @marks position is contrary to the Word of God, and have done so on multiple occasions, but he refuses to accept Paul’s teaching that death in Christ is merely a sleep. So what if I am wrong ??? and he is right, or vice versa?

Ultimately this all must be handled by God at some point in time? If Marks & I are genuine seekers of truth then how can one of us be in error?

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

What Scriptures deal with this dilemma?

 

[amigo de christo]

You’ve had your say, which you’re entitled to. But what if you were to discover that your beliefs are wrong, what then? I’ve already addressed your question in earlier comm's, but for now I’m asking you to consider the consequences. What are they in this life, and at the judgment? It may be that you take a position similar to that of the Universalist, who believes doctrine does not matter and questions the very idea of judgment. They also need to consider the impact of being in the wrong and how that affects their walk in this life.

those who preached this universalism inclusivism ecumencalism
have no idea the wrath they are reaping and a heaping upon themselves on the
great and MIGHTY DAY of GOD and of the lamb .
THE CHURCHES S HOULD have stuck with the original gospel . But the love of harlot took them captive to a lie .

 

[amigo de christo]

All of this is written based on the assumption that you are correct. But taking the example of “Heaven Going,” how do you determine whether this belief reflects reality, whether it is true or false?

I can easily demonstrate that @marks position is contrary to the Word of God, and have done so on multiple occasions, but he refuses to accept Paul’s teaching that death in Christ is merely a sleep. So what if I am wrong ??? and he is right, or vice versa?

Ultimately this all must be handled by God at some point in time? If Marks & I are genuine seekers of truth then how can one of us be in error?

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

What Scriptures deal with this dilemma?

My friend , do you realize you are talking to a generation
that now , more and more , no longer even beleives ONE HAD to have TO HAVE BELIEVED ON JESUS .
HECK they dont even know the gospel anymore , they preach unbelief and worse more and more love to have it so .
WE GOT TO FIX THIS FIRST . But i do understand , in part what you are doing .
But friend WHEN THE HOUSE is on fire , YOU GOTS to get up warn them GET OUT .
And ecumenicalism IS THAT FIRE and it will take them all down to perdition on THE DAY OF THE LORD .

 

[marks]

It may be that you take a position similar to that of the Universalist, who believes doctrine does not matter and questions the very idea of judgment.

That's your reply?

What will happen when you learn the truth?

I can easily demonstrate that @marks position is contrary to the Word of God,

John 11:26 KJV
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This is my position.

And this . . .

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

And this . . .

Ephesians 2:5-7 KJV
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

And this . . .

Hebrews 13:5 KJV
5) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

And this . . .

Matthew 22:29-33 KJV
29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33) And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

And there are so many more, but will you hear them?

Much love!

 

[marks]

but he refuses to accept Paul’s teaching that death in Christ is merely a sleep.

You keep saying this, but that's not what I've said. Ever. And I've corrected you before. So what do we call it when you tell something that's not true about someone, and you know it's not true? What is that called?

Much love? No, it has another name. Which again raises the question . . . do maturity in character and maturity in doctrine parallel?

Does the Word of God affect you to do righteousness? It should.

 

[Hiddenthings]

those who preached this universalism inclusivism ecumencalism
have no idea the wrath they are reaping and a heaping upon themselves on the
great and MIGHTY DAY of GOD and of the lamb .
THE CHURCHES S HOULD have stuck with the original gospel . But the love of harlot took them captive to a lie .

Again, it’s easy to speak about the errors of others, but being asked to reflect seriously on the possibility that you yourself might be in error is far more difficult.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That's your reply?

What will happen when you learn the truth?



John 11:26 KJV
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Yes, if you understand his teaching in the ultimate sense of permanent death, then all believers know and accept this. However, the question remains: will you die? Yes! Will you sleep? Only God knows if you are truly in Christ. I cannot judge.

Have you noticed how difficult it is for people to discuss the possibility of being wrong in their beliefs?

You have chosen to interpret John 11:26 in a way that suites your understanding - it might be wrong!

 

[Hiddenthings]

You keep saying this, but that's not what I've said. Ever. And I've corrected you before. So what do we call it when you tell something that's not true about someone, and you know it's not true? What is that called?

Much love? No, it has another name. Which again raises the question . . . do maturity in character and maturity in doctrine parallel?

Does the Word of God affect you to do righteousness? It should.

Is there a misunderstanding in how I have interpreted your belief?

Do you believe you immediately go to heaven when you die?

Yes or no?

 

[amigo de christo]

Again, it’s easy to speak about the errors of others, but being asked to reflect seriously on the possibility that you yourself might be in error is far more difficult.

slow down and take a good long breath . breath in t hrough nose and exhale slowly through mouth .
Okay . You are assuming this about me .
How do you know what i beleive concerning this , seeing i have not even spoke one word either way .
But i came on to warn us THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE and ecumenicalism IS that fire that gonna burn them all
ON THE LAST DAY .
I gotta do as i gotta do . The on e thing
that many in denominations now have in common
is they are tied already into ecumeincalism . THEY ARE BEING LED TO THE LIE
and many have already bought the lie . TIME to GET THEM OUT and start warning all
to get out of anything connected to ecumeincalism . WHICH DARN SURE MEANS THE RCC
and darn sure means the nar realm ,
MUCH of christanity has already been infilt rated . and while NOT ALL have yet bought the lie
MORE DO SO ALL THE TIME . THE LONGER YE SIT being unequally yoked
YE FALL . COME YE OUT one and all f rom amongst them , YE WHO bear the vessels of THE LORD .
AND BE YE HOLY . THAT HARLOT IS COMING DOWN on the DAY OF JESUS CHRIST
and so are all who sat under her ecumeincal interfaith .

 

[Hiddenthings]

slow down and take a good long breath . breath in t hrough nose and exhale slowly through mouth .
Okay . You are assuming this about me .
How do you know what i beleive concerning this , seeing i have not even spoke one word either way .
But i came on to warn us THE HOUSE IS ON FIRE and ecumenicalism IS that fire that gonna burn them all
ON THE LAST DAY .
I gotta do as i gotta do . The on e thing
that many in denominations now have in common
is they are tied already into ecumeincalism . THEY ARE BEING LED TO THE LIE
and many have already bought the lie . TIME to GET THEM OUT and start warning all
to get out of anything connected to ecumeincalism . WHICH DARN SURE MEANS THE RCC
and darn sure means the nar realm ,
MUCH of christanity has already been infilt rated . and while NOT ALL have yet bought the lie
MORE DO SO ALL THE TIME . THE LONGER YE SIT being unequally yoked
YE FALL . COME YE OUT one and all f rom amongst them , YE WHO bear the vessels of THE LORD .
AND BE YE HOLY . THAT HARLOT IS COMING DOWN on the DAY OF JESUS CHRIST
and so are all who sat under her ecumeincal interfaith .

I appreciate all of this, Amigo, but the question still remains: if there is a single truth concerning the state of the dead, why are there so many differing views? And if a person is sincere in seeking and finding the truth, is God just in leading them into it? What does that imply about all those who are in error, myself included?

Try not to think defensively, but instead consider the reality of what it would mean if whatever you believe were ultimately found to be wrong.

 

[marks]

Is there a misunderstanding in how I have interpreted your belief?

Do you believe you immediately go to heaven when you die?

Yes or no?

There is a matter of you misrepresenting my beliefs. I've seen you do that with others also. Subtly changing the wording, and then arguing against that changed wording. Classic "Straw Man".

Again . . . we are already in the heavenly realm with Jesus, and that does not change when our body dies.

Much love!

 

[Hiddenthings]

There is a matter of you misrepresenting my beliefs. I've seen you do that with others also. Subtly changing the wording, and then arguing against that changed wording. Classic "Straw Man".

Again . . . we are already in the heavenly realm with Jesus, and that does not change when our body dies.

Much love!

So its similar to what was assumed but you believe you are in Heaven now?

 

[amigo de christo]

I appreciate all of this, Amigo, but the question still remains: if there is a single truth concerning the state of the dead, why are there so many differing views? And if a person is sincere in seeking and finding the truth, is God just in leading them into it? What does that imply about all those who are in error, myself included?

Try not to think defensively, but instead consider the reality of what it would mean if whatever you believe were ultimately found to be wrong.

GOD dont lead us into error , man does that to himself .
GOD is just in everything HE DO . His judgments are righteous in all that HE does .
IF a person is truly seeking Truth , in time they will recieve it . We wont know all things , bear that in mind .
But we will KNOW what WE NEED TO KNOW .
I have seen folks get pulled out of pre trib and other things in time .
THE KEY is simply speak the truth and let us not argue against the scrips or twist them to fit something
we beleive . RATHER let the TRUTH reveal itself .

 

[marks]

will you die? Yes!

John 11:25-26 KJV
25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Why do you not believe Jesus? This is a crystal clear statement. I believe Him.

Much love!