WHAT????? CHURCH FATHERS WERE PRETRIB ???

[Spiritual Israelite]

Same context, a literal temple of stone in Jerusalem, representing the Lord's body that was destroyed

Not the same context at all. He would not refer to His body as "these buildings" that would be destroyed with no stone left upon another. When He said "See these great buildings?" He was not asking them if they saw His body. He was clearly referring to the temple buildings standing at that time and He said that they would be destroyed and they were destroyed in 70 AD. What He said in Matthew 24:1-2 is what spawned the disciples' questions in the Olivet Discourse and Jesus said nothing whatsoever about His death and resurrection during the Olivet Discourse.

 

[JLB]

Rev 14:14
A gathering DURING THE TRIB AND BEFORE YOUR SUPPOSED RAPTURE AFTER THE GT.

So, you have the dead in Christ, of 1 thes 4 , PRECEDED BY THE LIVING.

Because your doctrine is not complete, you can not claim any high ground.
You are operating off of supposition.
No postribber can unpack rev 14:14, nor the virgin parable.
No postribber has ever acknowledged the 2 comings of mat 24 , nor have they ever unpacked the "one taken, one left"

Ask one of them to unpack those pretrib rapture verses.
It is appalling what the do do God's word.

The rapture comes after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


The resurrection occurs at His coming.


That’s Revelation 19.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not the same context at all. He would not refer to His body as "these buildings" that would be destroyed with no stone left upon another. When He said "See these great buildings?" He was not asking them if they saw His body. He was clearly referring to the temple buildings standing at that time and He said that they would be destroyed and they were destroyed in 70 AD. What He said in Matthew 24:1-2 is what spawned the disciples' questions in the Olivet Discourse and Jesus said nothing whatsoever about His death and resurrection during the Olivet Discourse.

I Disagree

Was Jesus literally at the physical temple below when he stated "Destroy This Temple" 100% "Yes"!

Jesus wasn't talking about a literal /temple of stone being destroyed, it was his body

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I Disagree

I don't care that you disagree.

Was Jesus literally at the physical temple below when he stated "Destroy This Temple" 100% "Yes"!

Jesus wasn't talking about a literal /temple of stone being destroyed, it was his body

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Yes, He was at the physical temple at that time, but that was a completely different time and context than what is written in Matthew 24:1-2 (Mark 13:1-2, Luke 21:6-7), as I've already told you. He was talking about His death and resurrection in John 2:19-22. He was absolutely not talking about His death and resurrection in Matthew 24:1-2. You need to learn how to recognize the context of scripture.

Matthew 24:1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”.

When Jesus said "Do you not see all these things?" do you think He was referring to His body? If so, what do you think "these things" (Mark 13:2 says "these great buildings") represent? His body parts?

When the disciples asked Jesus "when will these things be?" what do you think they were asking Him about? When His death would occur?

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't care that you disagree.


Yes, He was at the physical temple at that time, but that was a completely different time and context than what is written in Matthew 24:1-2 (Mark 13:1-2, Luke 21:6-7), as I've already told you. He was talking about His death and resurrection in John 2:19-22. He was absolutely not talking about His death and resurrection in Matthew 24:1-2. You need to learn how to recognize the context of scripture.

Matthew 24:1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”.

When Jesus said "Do you not see all these things?" do you think He was referring to His body? If so, what do you think "these things" (Mark 13:2 says "these great buildings") represent? His body parts?

When the disciples asked Jesus "when will these things be?" what do you think they were asking Him about? When His death would occur?

Same Exact Context

His disciples and the Jews thought of a literal temple of stone, it was his body to be destroyed, same in Matthew 24 as John 2

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Same Exact Context

His disciples and the Jews thought of a literal temple of stone, it was his body to be destroyed, same in Matthew 24 as John 2

Were my questions in post #104 too difficult for you? Why didn't you answer them? Are you not confident enough in what you believe to answer straightforward questions? I'll try again.

When Jesus said "Do you not see all these things?" in Matthew 24:2, do you think He was referring to His body? If so, what do you think "these things" (Mark 13:2 says "these great buildings") represent? His body parts?

When the disciples asked Jesus "when will these things be?" in Matthew 24:3, what do you think they were asking Him about? When His death would occur?

 

[Truth7t7]

Were my questions in post #104 too difficult for you? Why didn't you answer them? Are you not confident enough in what you believe to answer straightforward questions? I'll try again.

When Jesus said "Do you not see all these things?" in Matthew 24:2, do you think He was referring to His body? If so, what do you think "these things" (Mark 13:2 says "these great buildings") represent? His body parts?

When the disciples asked Jesus "when will these things be?" in Matthew 24:3, what do you think they were asking Him about? When His death would occur?

I Disagree with your claim and opinion, Matthew 24 & John 2 represent the very same explanation with John 2 giving more detail, the Lord clearly identified the temple to be destroyed and its was his body

Conclusion: Your claim of 70AD fulfillment in Matthew 24:3 in the temple being destroyed by Roman armies is "False"

 

[covenantee]

I Disagree with your claim and opinion, Matthew 24 & John 2 represent the very same explanation with John 2 giving more detail, the Lord clearly identified the temple to be destroyed and its was his body

Conclusion: Your claim of 70AD fulfillment in Matthew 24:3 in the temple being destroyed by Roman armies is "False"

Sorry that you flunked kindergarten English comprehension.

Thanks for the guffaws.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is a very important point in understanding who these saints are. We have to consider that Jesus taught that not even death would overcome the church He would build. Yet these saints would be overcome.

The answer is of course in Daniel 12, "until he shall have shattered the strength of the holy people". These holy people are Daniel's people, in keeping with his prophecy. These are not Christian, whom nothing will overcome.

Much love!

Lol
All the disciples were martyred except John.

Postribbers have invented some scenario where they see themselves running from cave to cave with the AC hot on their heels.

The bible is clear.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.

The following is COMPLETELY MISSING from postrib rapture doctrine;
Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Postribber job is to omit or change all of that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Lol
All the disciples were martyred except John.

Postribbers have invented some scenario where they see themselves running from cave to cave with the AC hot on their heels.

The bible is clear.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.

The following is COMPLETELY MISSING from postrib rapture doctrine;
Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Postribber job is to omit or change all of that.

Most likely 90% of postribbers will read those verses for the first time, then create something to twist it.
...or keep omitting it.
100% proof no saint "makes it through the GT."
Postrib rapture is poorly thought out.

 

[The Light]

100% proof no saint "makes it through the GT."
Postrib rapture is poorly thought out.

This is not correct.

The reason you are missing this is because you fail to recognize that the Great Tribulation is when the beast is killing believers and Jews. The GT is over at the 6th seal and then the 7th seal wrath of God begins.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I Disagree with your claim and opinion,

I couldn't care less that you disagree. That means literally nothing to me. I know the truth about this and certainly don't need you to teach it to me.

Matthew 24 & John 2 represent the very same explanation with John 2 giving more detail, the Lord clearly identified the temple to be destroyed and its was his body

Conclusion: Your claim of 70AD fulfillment in Matthew 24:3 in the temple being destroyed by Roman armies is "False"

Your claim is false. What is recorded in John 2:19-22 did not occur on the same occasion as Matthew 24:1-2. That is a fact. You are being deceitful by trying to claim that both passages record the same event. What is recorded in John 2:19-22 didn't happen just before the Olivet Discourse as what is recorded in Matthew 24:1-2 did. What is recorded in John 2:19-22 happened early in His ministry and what is recorded in Matthew 24:1-2 happened towards the end of His ministry. That you are trying to act as if what is described in both passages happened at the same time is absolutely false.

Also, you failed to answer my questions again. I can only conclude that you can't answer them, but I'll try one more time.

When Jesus said "Do you not see all these things?" in Matthew 24:2, do you think He was referring to His body? If so, what do you think "these things" (Mark 13:2 says "these great buildings") represent? His body parts?

When the disciples asked Jesus "when will these things be?" in Matthew 24:3, what do you think they were asking Him about? When His death would occur?

 

[Truth7t7]

Lol
All the disciples were martyred except John.

Postribbers have invented some scenario where they see themselves running from cave to cave with the AC hot on their heels.

The bible is clear.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.

The following is COMPLETELY MISSING from postrib rapture doctrine;
Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Postribber job is to omit or change all of that.

Many put the future (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) as the ruler of earth during the 3.5 year tribulation "wrong"!

It will be God's (Two Witnesses) that rule in bringing all plagues in torturing the evil world, a literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, God's in control!

Revelation 11:3-6 & 10KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Future (Two Witnesses) "All Plagues" As Often As They Will Representing "God"

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are being deceitful by trying to claim that both passages record the same event. What is recorded in John 2:19-22 didn't happen just before the Olivet Discourse as what is recorded in Matthew 24:1-2 did. What is recorded in John 2:19-22 happened early in His ministry and what is recorded in Matthew 24:1-2 happened towards the end of His ministry. That you are trying to act as if what is described in both passages happened at the same time is absolutely false.

On both events Jesus stood at the temple, in both explanations a destruction of a temple was discussed, in John 2 the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's physical body, both events took place before the Lord's, death, burial, and resurrection

The temple to be destroyed was the "Lord's Body" scripture interprets itself

Your teaching and belief has a literal temple of stone being destroyed just as the Jews believed, your belief that Matthew 24:3 was fulfilled in 70AD Roman Armies destroying the Jerusalem temple is 100% wrong

Jesus died on the cross of Calvary some 30+ years prior to 70AD, at this time the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, God vacated the temple of stone in Jerusalem, God the Holy Spirit lives within his Church his temple who replaced the temple of stone in Jerusalem

When Jesus died on Calvary the temple of stone in Jerusalem was destroyed in the "Spiritual" not one stone left upon another, "GONE", it's that simple and you can repeat yourself a thousand times, 70AD played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[covenantee]

On both events Jesus stood at the temple, in both explanations a destruction of a temple was discussed, in John 2 the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's physical body, both events took place before the Lord's, death, burial, and resurrection

The temple to be destroyed was the "Lord's Body" scripture interprets itself

Your teaching and belief has a literal temple of stone being destroyed just as the Jews believed, your belief that Matthew 24:3 was fulfilled in 70AD Roman Armies destroying the Jerusalem temple is 100% wrong

Jesus died on the cross of Calvary some 30+ years prior to 70AD, at this time the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, God vacated the temple of stone in Jerusalem, God the Holy Spirit lives within his Church his temple who replaced the temple of stone in Jerusalem

When Jesus died on Calvary the temple of stone in Jerusalem was destroyed in the "Spiritual" not one stone left upon another, "GONE", it's that simple and you can repeat yourself a thousand times, 70AD played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3

Jesus Is The Lord

Who Commanded and Controlled the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 AD?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Now, I have many friends and family members who are huge proponents of the PTR and I love all of them dearly. My only objection is that those they teach this to (esp. their children) could be teaching them in error. What is so hard about looking at the other side of things and praying about what they should be teaching...especially those who are "certain" of this doctrine.

Precious sister Nancy, appreciate your kindness / love for pre-tribbers. Definitely way better than name-calling
and 'vile communication' Paul "Warns us about". If there is an 'error', I could not find it in my own personal
18-month study of This Important Doctrine Of God:

Outline:

(1) am I using The Right Bible?
(2) am I obeying God's Excellent "study" Rules!?

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's Timelines?
(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) GREAT Tribulation? Or tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure!
(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?
(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for Whom! or, for "signs"?

(9) God's Removal Of His Body!!
(10) "Day Of CHRIST!" Rightly Divided from {RDf}:

- "The Day Of The LORD"?​

(11) Confidence in death/resurrection!, OR, in living/glorification!?
(12) CHRIST Will Return "Without Warning!"?

(13)The Two "Trumps" Of God!, In His "Age Of GRACE!!"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air!" to Heaven!!* vs U-turn (theology?)

- Back To earth?​

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?
(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?

(17) Conclusion of God's Mystery Resurrection/Departure!

All of these, of course have been awaiting any kind any humble discussions, if anyone is interested;
the three I have tried to discuss so far on this Board, but with very little to no avail?:

God's Three Ages Rightly Divided Timelines!
+
God's Removal Of His Body!!
+
Conclusion Of God's Great GRACE Departure!!!

May God Very Richly Edify and Encourage you, in your own Grace walk with The Lord.

Amen.

 

[covenantee]

On both events Jesus stood at the temple, in both explanations a destruction of a temple was discussed, in John 2 the temple to be destroyed was the Lord's physical body, both events took place before the Lord's, death, burial, and resurrection

The temple to be destroyed was the "Lord's Body" scripture interprets itself

Your teaching and belief has a literal temple of stone being destroyed just as the Jews believed, your belief that Matthew 24:3 was fulfilled in 70AD Roman Armies destroying the Jerusalem temple is 100% wrong

Jesus died on the cross of Calvary some 30+ years prior to 70AD, at this time the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, God vacated the temple of stone in Jerusalem, God the Holy Spirit lives within his Church his temple who replaced the temple of stone in Jerusalem

When Jesus died on Calvary the temple of stone in Jerusalem was destroyed in the "Spiritual" not one stone left upon another, "GONE", it's that simple and you can repeat yourself a thousand times, 70AD played no part in fulfillment of Matthew 24:3

Jesus Is The Lord

Below are various of the Scriptural references to Jesus and the temple. Since your Scripture interprets itself, in all of them the references to the temple must therefore be references to Jesus' body.

Thus,

in Matthew 21:12, all them that sold and bought, did so in Jesus' body.
In Matthew 26:55, Jesus sat daily with them teaching in his body.
In Mark 11:11, Jesus entered into Jerusalem and into his body.
In Mark 12:35, Jesus taught in his body.
In Luke 2:27, Jesus came by the Spirit into his body.
In Luke 22:52, Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of his body.

Please finish the list and exegete all of it for all of us.

1. Matthew 21:12
   And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
   
   
2. Matthew 24:1
   And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
   
   
3. Matthew 26:55
   In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
   
   
4. Mark 11:11
   And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.
   
   
5. Mark 11:15
   And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
   
   
6. Mark 12:35
   And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
   
   
7. Luke 2:27
   And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
   
   
8. Luke 22:52
   Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?
   
   
9. John 2:19
   Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
   
   
10. John 5:14
    Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
    
    
11. John 7:14
    Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
    
    
12. John 7:28
    Then cried Jesus in the templeas he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
    
    
13. John 8:20
    These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
    
    
14. John 8:59
    Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
    
    
15. John 10:23
    And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
    
    
16. John 11:56
    Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast?
    
    
17. John 18:20
    Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is not correct.

The reason you are missing this is because you fail to recognize that the Great Tribulation is when the beast is killing believers and Jews. The GT is over at the 6th seal and then the 7th seal wrath of God begins.

The bible is clear.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.

The following is COMPLETELY MISSING from postrib rapture doctrine;
Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The reason you miss it is because of your strict "trib vs wrath", then you misplace the first 3.5 years of the 7 yr tribulation.
Jacob's trouble.
IOW your starting place is from mental figuring.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Many put the future (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) as the ruler of earth during the 3.5 year tribulation "wrong"!

It will be God's (Two Witnesses) that rule in bringing all plagues in torturing the evil world, a literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, God's in control!

Revelation 11:3-6 & 10KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Future (Two Witnesses) "All Plagues" As Often As They Will Representing "God"

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

No
The 2 witnesses are ONE COMPONENT.
That component does not erase the other compoments.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The rapture comes after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


The resurrection occurs at His coming.


That’s Revelation 19.

Rev 14 :14 has a gathering before your misplaced resurrection.
YEARS PRIOR TO IT.
So, you painted yourself into a corner.
Because, in your doctrine, you now have the dead in Christ of 1 thes 4 are raised AFTER the gathering of rev 14:14.

If any postribber ever put all the verses on the table, the doctrine falls apart.