"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[Aunty Jane]

Are we required to obey God after salvation??

Good question....
Those who are “saved” are still free moral agents, as are all of God’s children...if they weren’t, then we would not be in this situation, caused by three formerly “perfect” beings who abused their free will.

God placed a penalty on disobedience, and after sin entered into the world, he went to a lot of trouble to show us where that kind of abuse can lead....it is a powerful life lesson...one where we could not be told, but had to be shown the real life consequences of disobedience, so that we all must learn how to use our free will appropriately before God’s original purpose for mankind on this earth is ever to be reinstated. This is not a training ground for heaven...the earth was designed to be our permanent home.

What does “salvation” mean in that context? What are we being “saved” from?
Why is baptism necessary? Why are we living this life?

Once a person accepts Christ as their savior, is baptized, and is on the right path to life, they are not perfected simply by their belief. Still trapped In sinful flesh, they must gain the mastery over a will that wants to lead them away from God rather than to him. Like Paul. (Rom 7:21-25)

This is what makes or breaks a Christian.....we either win or lose that battle. But we have the most powerful Being in existence willing us to keep going, providing guidance, strength and encouragement in our struggles, but he cannot do it for us....this is a battle we have to win, with adversity acting as training.....like an athlete training for a marathon. The more you train, the stronger you get.

We have the sacrifice of Jesus to wipe away any past sins that we may have...no matter how bad they were, (Remember Manasseh) and we can be confident that we have have God’s forgiveness....a fresh start...a clean slate.

Peter reinforces that fact...
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.” (1 Peter 3:18-22 ESV)

How much there is in that passage.....Peter compares our baptism to Noah’s ark that saved eight souls through the water. Did God save Noah? Or did he teach him how to save himself?

Baptism wasn’t just to wash the body clean of sinful practices, but it is “an appeal to God for a good conscience”....no matter what sins we committed before our baptism, they are covered by Christ’s blood, allowing us to move on from that old life and that old personality, having a new life, and living it in accord with God’s standards, not the disintegrating standards of the world. With a new heart appreciation for what Jesus has done for us, we now want to live a good life, free from the practices that result in sin. We now hate those things that once attracted us.


Just as a side point in keeping with the thread’s theme....notice the closing words of Peter there in that chapter....
“...Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.” (ESV)

For the trinitarians, can you please explain how Jesus is God, if “angels and powers have been subjected to him”? If he was God, they would be subjected to him already....this agrees with Jesus statement in Matt 28:18 where it says....
“And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”
Why did “authority in heaven and on earth” need to be “given” to the Son?.....and who was the only one who could have given it to him?

 

[GodsGrace]

Go on, take a deep breathe and make the plunge. If you thought your continued justification did not depend on you obeying the Ten Commandments, would you then feel entitled to happily sin as much as you like?
Maybe you don't know the answer, or are concerned at giving it

You don't SPEAK like a Christian person...
you probably don't ACT like one either.
Maybe you could learn...eventually...God willing.

You DO have a lot to learn about the Christian faith.

 

[saved by grace 101]

You don't SPEAK like a Christian person...
you probably don't ACT like one either.
Maybe you could learn...eventually...God willing.

You DO have a lot to learn about the Christian faith.

You see, you couldn't even answer one question could you!
I don't mind you maligning me, you've already told me previously I am not a christian, and you lie about me. but you have to deflect from answering the question any which way you can

 

[saved by grace 101]

You don't SPEAK like a Christian person...
you probably don't ACT like one either.
Maybe you could learn...eventually...God willing.

You DO have a lot to learn about the Christian faith.

I will leave you with this:
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

 

[XtraPercept]

YOU don't know if I know how it works.

You're right, I can be presumptuous. I apologize for that, but I tend to speak to everyone as a singular entity, for the most part, while struggling to track the details of individual takes on the various bones to which they cling.

Your feedback is duly noted and appreciated.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good question....
Those who are “saved” are still free moral agents, as are all of God’s children...if they weren’t, then we would not be in this situation, caused by three formerly “perfect” beings who abused their free will.

God placed a penalty on disobedience, and after sin entered into the world, he went to a lot of trouble to show us where that kind of abuse can lead....it is a powerful life lesson...one where we could not be told, but had to be shown the real life consequences of disobedience, so that we all must learn how to use our free will appropriately before God’s original purpose for mankind on this earth is ever to be reinstated. This is not a training ground for heaven...the earth was designed to be our permanent home.

What does “salvation” mean in that context? What are we being “saved” from?
Why is baptism necessary? Why are we living this life?

Once a person accepts Christ as their savior, is baptized, and is on the right path to life, they are not perfected simply by their belief. Still trapped In sinful flesh, they must gain the mastery over a will that wants to lead them away from God rather than to him. Like Paul. (Rom 7:21-25)

This is what makes or breaks a Christian.....we either win or lose that battle. But we have the most powerful Being in existence willing us to keep going, providing guidance, strength and encouragement in our struggles, but he cannot do it for us....this is a battle we have to win, with adversity acting as training.....like an athlete training for a marathon. The more you train, the stronger you get.

We have the sacrifice of Jesus to wipe away any past sins that we may have...no matter how bad they were, (Remember Manasseh) and we can be confident that we have have God’s forgiveness....a fresh start...a clean slate.

Peter reinforces that fact...
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.” (1 Peter 3:18-22 ESV)

How much there is in that passage.....Peter compares our baptism to Noah’s ark that saved eight souls through the water. Did God save Noah? Or did he teach him how to save himself?

Baptism wasn’t just to wash the body clean of sinful practices, but it is “an appeal to God for a good conscience”....no matter what sins we committed before our baptism, they are covered by Christ’s blood, allowing us to move on from that old life and that old personality, having a new life, and living it in accord with God’s standards, not the disintegrating standards of the world. With a new heart appreciation for what Jesus has done for us, we now want to live a good life, free from the practices that result in sin. We now hate those things that once attracted us.


Just as a side point in keeping with the thread’s theme....notice the closing words of Peter there in that chapter....
“...Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.” (ESV)

For the trinitarians, can you please explain how Jesus is God, if “angels and powers have been subjected to him”? If he was God, they would be subjected to him already....this agrees with Jesus statement in Matt 28:18 where it says....
“And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”
Why did “authority in heaven and on earth” need to be “given” to the Son?.....and who was the only one who could have given it to him?

Nice post Auntie Jane.
Agree in every sense.

As to Jesus...the problem here is that you do not distinguish from the 2 nd Person of the Trinity...who is also called Jesus or the Son of God.

The problem here is that you do not accept the hypostatic union...
Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine/God.

If we don't accept Christian theology, which was taught from the very beginning...we will run into problems and some scripture will remain obscure.

The authority had to be given to Jesus because He emptied Himself when He became a man...but He was still God.
Only God could have died to forgive our sins. Sinful man cannot save sinful man.


Philippians 2:6-10
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Jesus emptied Himself, taking on the form of a servant and the likeness of men.
THE LIKENESS OF MEN....So then what was He iBEFORE He took on the likeness of a man?

Jesus was the Word/Logos of God.
It's this simple. He existed WITHIN God from eternity.
This Word became flesh...John 1:1
God became flesh as THE SON, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

The doctrine of the Trinity unlocks many questions a person may have...
but we have to accept what the bible says and not what some denominations teach.
And I don't mean only the JWs....there are other denominations that teach what is not found in the NT
but has become popular in the past 200 years or so.

You will not agree, of course, but I like the Apostolic Fathers.
They wrote about what the Apostles taught them...
which is what Jesus taught the Apostles.

Here is where I find the truth....
The Apostles (since they wrote about jesus...He wrote donw nothing on paper).
Those immediately following the Apostles that were taught by them.

Jesus is spoken of as God in both the New Testament and in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers.

I'll post the link for anyone interested.

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

 

[GodsGrace]

I will leave you with this:
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20

Do you not know?
We are not under the Law.

You sound confused.

 

[XtraPercept]

So you don't expect to attain to sinless perfection on this earth. That would agree with what I have stated

This format is difficult to track for me, to keep up the pace. I appreciate your patience.

What you stated, if I am not mistaken, suggests that the saved are sinless and the sinful are not saved.

I suggest we are all in a process, and an individual's expressed behavior reflects directly the contents of their heart as determined by the extent to which they place their faith in God.

One who believes God sins less and less by intentional effort until the baptism of the Spirit, after which point sin is no longer a battle to resist, but only the occasional mistake under the tutelage of the Spirit.

That's what it means to have a new nature. I don't desire sin. I could slip, sure, but I am held and fear not to fall.

 

[GodsGrace]

You see, you couldn't even answer one question could you!
I don't mind you maligning me, you've already told me previously I am not a christian, and you lie about me. but you have to deflect from answering the question any which way you can

Yes sir.
I love deflecting questions.
That's why I spend time here.
To deflect questions.

 

[XtraPercept]

I love deflecting questions.

That beats dismissal by a long shot.

 

[GodsGrace]

That beats dismissal by a long shot.

The other member is making rather silly statements.
I tire of it.

It might be best if I just sign off.
I sometimes ponder how we Christians can have such differing ideas.
It was not like this in the beginning...
something has changed and I'm not sure what that is.

 

[GodsGrace]

@XtraPercept

Could it be this?


1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[saved by grace 101]

Do you not know?
We are not under the Law.

You sound confused.

You have forfieted the right to ask me any questions, as you refuse to answer any put to you

 

[saved by grace 101]

What you stated, if I am not mistaken, suggests that the saved are sinless and the sinful are not saved.

Where did I state the saved are sinless? Please provide my quote

 

[BreadOfLife]

'''The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them''''
And what does that mean? If you do not do what you are bound to do you will remain justified anyway?

I’ll explain it all to you -in a new thread - in storybook form, if needs be.
However, I’m NOT going to allow you to further hijack this thread . . .

 

[saved by grace 101]

I’ll explain it all to you -in a new thread - in storybook form, if needs be.
However, I’m NOT going to allow you to further hijack this thread . . .

Then you start a thread. You want to explain catholic doctrine, you are the expert, not me. Just tell me where the thread is and I will join you

 

[XtraPercept]

Where did I state the saved are sinless? Please provide my quote

You're right, you didn't state that. I paraphrased to express succinctly my understanding of what I thought you were saying.

I don't think this is constructive, I'm going to stop.

 

[Aunty Jane]

As to Jesus...the problem here is that you do not distinguish from the 2 nd Person of the Trinity...who is also called Jesus or the Son of God.

I see no “second person of the trinity” in Jesus Christ....I see only the “Son of God”...I do not see “God the Son” mentioned in a single verse.

The problem here is that you do not accept the hypostatic union...
Jesus is 100% human and 100% divine/God.

Show me where it says in the Bible that Jesus was 200% of anything?
He had to be 100% human to pay the price of redemption, which was set at the fall.....if Jesus was more than human, it destroys his mission.
Since death came as a result of sin, it required someone free from sin to remove sin and eliminate death.
It is Jesus Christ, the only sinless man ever born of woman.

God is an immortal who cannot die, so unless a genuine human sacrifice was offered as Adam’s equivalent, the transaction was not valid. Redemption never took place.

If we don't accept Christian theology, which was taught from the very beginning...we will run into problems and some scripture will remain obscure.

“Christian” theology is not the problem...RCC theology is the problem. The “problem we run into” is a wall of lies, passed off as Christian truth. It’s not even close.

The authority had to be given to Jesus because He emptied Himself when He became a man...but He was still God.
Only God could have died to forgive our sins. Sinful man cannot save sinful man.

Do you hear yourself? How incredibly contradictory that is....if he became a man (100%) then he cannot be God (100%)
The other contradiction is that only God can forgive sins, yet he gave Jesus that authority.

“And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.” (Matt 9:2-8 ESV)

Jesus was “without sin”.....when he approached John to be baptized, John at first refused because he knew that Jesus had no need of repentance as a sinless man......that is the reason why he came into the word apart from Adam’s DNA, all humans were now tainted by sin. He had to give a sinless life to cancel the debt that Adam left for all his children. God’s Law stated that a life was to be given for a life taken. The sinless life Adam lost was covered by the sinless life that Christ willingly offered.

Jesus emptied Himself, taking on the form of a servant and the likeness of men.
THE LIKENESS OF MEN....So then what was He iBEFORE He took on the likeness of a man?

He was “God’s only begotten son”...which is what he called himself.
He was “the firstborn of ALL CREATION”....which means that he existed before anything or anyone else.
He is the Father’s first and only direct creation.....all that came into existence, came “through” the Son....not from him.

Jesus was the Word/Logos of God.
It's this simple. He existed WITHIN God from eternity.

That is not what John 1:1 says....it says he was ”with God” “in the beginning”...so what “beginning” is this?
God didn’t have a beginning...he is eternal and immortal....his son had a beginning. (Rev 3:14) and was not immortal otherwise he could not have died.

It’s not a mystery...it is a lie.

This Word became flesh...John 1:1
God became flesh as THE SON, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

“Ho logos” became flesh, not “ho theos”. Have you examined the Greek? It’s right there in plain sight.....The Word (ho logos) was “theos” (divine or God-like) but not “ho theos”. (Yahweh)

There is no “second person of the trinity”....if there are several “people” masquerading as one God, then what do we have? A god with three heads who act independently? Or one God with multiple personalities so he can be in three places at once and talk to himself?
Either way, the Jews never knew such a god...he didn’t officially exist until the 4th century. Where was he hiding for 3 centuries?

 

[GodsGrace]

I see no “second person of the trinity” in Jesus Christ....I see only the “Son of God”...I do not see “God the Son” mentioned in a single verse.

Show me where it says in the Bible that Jesus was 200% of anything?
He had to be 100% human to pay the price of redemption, which was set at the fall.....if Jesus was more than human, it destroys his mission.
Since death came as a result of sin, it required someone free from sin to remove sin and eliminate death.
It is Jesus Christ, the only sinless man ever born of woman.

Here is where it says IN THE BIBLE that Jesus is fully human and fully God.
Fully means 100%.

You do not accept John 1:1 and John 1:14 which states that THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD AND THAT WORD BECAME FLESH. Very clear but non-Christians don't seem to be able to understand that the WORD was WITH God and was GOD and then the WORD became FLESH. IOW,,,The WORD was GOD and became HUMAN (flesh).

Here is more scripture which shows Jesus to be both GOD and HUMAN.


Colossians 2:8-9
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than * according to Christ.
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

The fullness of God in bodily form.

Colossians 2:13
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

A man cannot forgive sins,,,only God can forgive sin.


Philippinas 2:6-8
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

In VERY NATURE Jesus is God.
But He did not use this to His advatage but to ours.
Jesus made Himself NOTHING by taking the very nature of man...being made in HUMAN LIKENESS.

Jesus is in nature BOTH GOD AND MAN.


Hebrews 2:14, 17
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.


Note: In order to become something....you would have to be somethnig else to begin with.
JESUS is God and He became MAN.
Fully God and fully man as the scriptures above state.


If you reply use scripture...
your personal opinions are of no interest to me.


page 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

page 2 of 2

God is an immortal who cannot die, so unless a genuine human sacrifice was offered as Adam’s equivalent, the transaction was not valid. Redemption never took place.

As shown above JESUS WAS BOTH GOD AND MAN.

“Christian” theology is not the problem...RCC theology is the problem. The “problem we run into” is a wall of lies, passed off as Christian truth. It’s not even close.

The CC has nothing to do with scripture.

I've provided SCRIPTURE
NOT
what the CC, or any other denomination teaches.

Do you hear yourself? How incredibly contradictory that is....if he became a man (100%) then he cannot be God (100%)
The other contradiction is that only God can forgive sins, yet he gave Jesus that authority.

John and Paul prove that you are wrong.
We are to trust the bible, NOT what You THINK.

“And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.” (Matt 9:2-8 ESV)

Great verse.
Who forgives sin?
MAN
or
GOD?

Thanks for proving Jesus is God.

Jesus was “without sin”.....when he approached John to be baptized, John at first refused because he knew that Jesus had no need of repentance as a sinless man......that is the reason why he came into the word apart from Adam’s DNA, all humans were now tainted by sin. He had to give a sinless life to cancel the debt that Adam left for all his children. God’s Law stated that a life was to be given for a life taken. The sinless life Adam lost was covered by the sinless life that Christ willingly offered.

We all know Jesus was without sin.
This is NOT what is under discussion.

Deflection will be of no use to you.

He was “God’s only begotten son”...which is what he called himself.
He was “the firstborn of ALL CREATION”....which means that he existed before anything or anyone else.
He is the Father’s first and only direct creation.....all that came into existence, came “through” the Son....not from him.

Please explain what the word BEGOTTEN means, biblically of course.

PLease use scripture to prove that Jesus was created and did not always exist.

That is not what John 1:1 says....it says he was ”with God” “in the beginning”...so what “beginning” is this?

This has already been addressed in other posts to you.
The beginning can mean whatever you want it to mean...
IN THE BEGINNING JESUS WAS WITH GOD, as the WORD. John 1:1

God didn’t have a beginning...he is eternal and immortal....his son had a beginning. (Rev 3:14) and was not immortal otherwise he could not have died.

Silly reasoning.....please use scripture when posting about God.
Jesus died AS A HUMAN.
He is 100% human, remember?

Has any other human resurrected?
No.

Because Jesus is also 100% God and through His power He resurrected....

Let's check scripture:

Galatians 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—


1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—


Romans 1:4
4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.


John 2:19
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”


John 10:18
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.


Jesus was resurrect by
THE FATHER
THE SPIRIT
HIMSELF

Why?
Because all three are the ONE GOD and have the same NATURE and work in UNISON.


Matthew 28:19 Jesus said to preach in the NAME OF THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Because all THREE are THE ONE GOD and have the same NATURE and work in UNISON.

It’s not a mystery...it is a lie.

“Ho logos” became flesh, not “ho theos”. Have you examined the Greek? It’s right there in plain sight.....The Word (ho logos) was “theos” (divine or God-like) but not “ho theos”. (Yahweh)

There is no “second person of the trinity”....if there are several “people” masquerading as one God, then what do we have? A god with three heads who act independently? Or one God with multiple personalities so he can be in three places at once and talk to himself?
Either way, the Jews never knew such a god...he didn’t officially exist until the 4th century. Where was he hiding for 3 centuries?

Apparently you do not agree with scripture.
You do not accept the New Testament as the Word of God.
You follow a teaching that is not related and in line with the teachings of the writers of the New Testament.

If you reply please use scripture since your personal opinion is of no interest to me.