"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[keithr]

The authority had to be given to Jesus because He emptied Himself when He became a man...but He was still God.
Only God could have died to forgive our sins. Sinful man cannot save sinful man.

It is impossible for God to die - He is immortal (which means that it is impossible to die; a dictionary definition is 'not liable or subject to death'; Strong's says 'deathlessness') - 1 Timothy 6:13,16 WEB

(13) I command you before God, ...​

(16) who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.​

A perfect man can save sinful man. God's perfect justice is a life for a life - Exodus 21:23-25 WEB

(23) But if any harm follows, then you must take life for life,​

(24) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,​

(25) burning for burning, wound for wound, and bruise for bruise.​

So to redeem Adam a perfect (sinless) human man was required to give up his life, to pay the penalty for sin for Adam. God could not become a man, but He could change the nature of His only begotten Son from mortal spirit being to mortal human being, so He sent His willing Son to be our saviour - 1 John 4:14 WEB

(14) We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.​

Philippians 2:6-10
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

If Jesus did not attempt to grasp equality with God, then clearly he was not God.

9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

How could God highly exalt Jesus if Jesus was God? (Exalt means, according to Strong's, 'to elevate above others, that is, raise to the highest position'.)

The truth harmonises all verses of Scripture. The Trinity belief does not harmonise the Scriptures.

 

[Lizbeth]

The Law is in the heart,
but the commandments must still be obeyed.

You never address the ceremonial, civil and moral law.

The MORAL LAW MUST be obeyed.

If you want to, fine.
If you do not want to or infringe the Moral Law, you have sinned and must ask forgiveness.

If I may drop in with a few thoughts on this, sister.....to my understanding, this is really a matter of OUTWARD righteousness (which proceeds from self) versus INWARD righteousness (proceeds from the Spirit within).

We serve in the new way of the SPIRIT now, not in the old way of a checklist (letter) of EXTERNAL observances. The Law could make no one "perfect" as pertaining to the conscience (inward). And perfect means to be spiritual, to walk in the spirit and be led by Him....newness of the spirit.....new/renewed means to be made spiritual. Perfect/way of the spirit speaks to an INWARD change.....our new man is created perfect/spiritual.....created after the image of Christ.... that is our new conscience.....and that is why we MUST be born again. To cleanse the INSIDE of our cup, not the outside/external only. This I believe is both a done deal as well as an ongoing battle and work of ongoing sanctification.....where it says "all things HAVE been put under the feet of Christ, but we not (necessarily) yet SEE all things put under"

The Law is still good if we use it properly....that is to use it in the new way of the spirit, to feed, instruct, and strengthen us in the INNER man, our new man, our spirit. Not as an external checklist of EXTERNAL observances. The new way of the Spirit is the way of FAITH/SPIRIT as opposed to the old way of carnal knowledge by way of a checklist. This is why Jesus set the new standard according to the new man/spirit.....to not only refrain from committing adultery (outward), but to no longer even entertain lust (inward). To not only refrain from committing murder (outward) but to no longer even hate (Raca!) which is inward. And to keep the Sabbath (external) by entering His rest (inward). The old way is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (outward/carnal mind) which comes with a curse, but the new way is the Tree of Life (faith and Spirit inwardly) which brings us liberty from the curse.

In obeying the law of love (for God and neighbour) we fulfill the Law as a whole...as one single whole package of righteousness....the Law as a whole is an expression of righteousness and holiness. As a checklist I think the Law is not even complete, it doesn't address every single possible sin or righteous act under the sun....but as a whole it gives us a picture, a concept, of what righteousness looks like as a whole.

 

[GodsGrace]

If I may drop in with a few thoughts on this, sister.....to my understanding, this is really a matter of OUTWARD righteousness (which proceeds from self) versus INWARD righteousness (proceeds from the Spirit within).

We serve in the new way of the SPIRIT now, not in the old way of a checklist (letter) of EXTERNAL observances. The Law could make no one "perfect" as pertaining to the conscience (inward). And perfect means to be spiritual, to walk in the spirit and be led by Him....newness of the spirit.....new/renewed means to be made spiritual. Perfect/way of the spirit speaks to an INWARD change.....our new man is created perfect/spiritual.....created after the image of Christ.... that is our new conscience.....and that is why we MUST be born again. To cleanse the INSIDE of our cup, not the outside/external only. This I believe is both a done deal as well as an ongoing battle and work of ongoing sanctification.....where it says "all things HAVE been put under the feet of Christ, but we not (necessarily) yet SEE all things put under"

Agreed.
You've explained the New Covenant perfectly.

The Law is still good if we use it properly....that is to use it in the new way of the spirit, to feed, instruct, and strengthen us in the INNER man, our new man, our spirit. Not as an external checklist of EXTERNAL observances.

External observances don't save anyone.

The new way of the Spirit is the way of FAITH/SPIRIT as opposed to the old way of carnal knowledge by way of a checklist. This is why Jesus set the new standard according to the new man/spirit.....to not only refrain from committing adultery (outward), but to no longer even entertain lust (inward).

Correct. Jesus made commandments more stringent, not less.

We shouldn't even be THINKING/CONSIDERING cheating on our spouse.

To not only refrain from committing murder (outward) but to no longer even hate (Raca!) which is inward. And to keep the Sabbath (external) by entering His rest (inward). The old way is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (outward/carnal mind) which comes with a curse, but the new way is the Tree of Life (faith and Spirit inwardly) which brings us liberty from the curse.

I'm not sure you mean this the way you wrote it.

This is what you wrote:

" The old way is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (outward/carnal mind) which comes with a curse, but the new way is the Tree of Life (faith and Spirit inwardly) which brings us liberty from the curse."

Even when we become born again, we still know good and evil...that does not get erased.

Jesus warns us to ACT upon His words, as the wise man does.

Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Let's see if we can agree:
When we become born again our heart is changed into a heart of flesh.

But would you agree that we still must keep the Moral Law?

We do have to be careful because there are members on these Forums who seem to believe that we can choose to obey God or not and still be saved. This is not what Jesus taught.

We honor and obey our husband because we love him...
but there are still house rules that must be adhered to even if we would like not to.

We still must do the will of the Father...
granted it will be because we want to....
but even if we do not want to at times....some control of our nature must still be practiced.
No lies. No stealing. No coveting, etc.

I believe that with time these commandments become easier and easier....
but we must still teach/state/confirm that the Moral Law is to be obeyed.

In obeying the law of love (for God and neighbour) we fulfill the Law as a whole...as one single whole package of righteousness....the Law as a whole is an expression of righteousness and holiness. As a checklist I think the Law is not even complete, it doesn't address every single possible sin or righteous act under the sun....but as a whole it gives us a picture, a concept, of what righteousness looks like as a whole.

I agree!

Jesus said that we are to love God,,,our neighbor as ourself.

This covers all the commandments, and any new situation that might come up, as you've correctly stated -
So it's always LOVE that makes us want to obey.

But can we agree that obey we must?

Is it this MUST that disturbs so many?
And yet it's what Jesus taught.

 

[saved by grace 101]

But would you agree that we still MUST keep the Moral Law?

The question then becomes(sorry I know you don't like to answer questions) what happens if we don't obey it?
Paul termed the TC the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation, so you alongside everyone else transgresses that law. We MUST obey the law is an absolute and inflexible statement. You need to qualify it, if you want to obey the second greatest commandment
You see, under the new covenant it is not a matter of you MUST obey, but in your heart you WANT to obey, big difference, which may be where you are, I don't know
You want to live as God desires you to live but you much fail, as does everyone else, so you MUST needs to be qualified!!!
Now if you had said you MUST DESIRE, to live as God wants you to live, I would fully agree with that statement!

 

[GodsGrace]

The question then becomes(sorry I know you don't like to answer questions) what happens if we don't obey it?
Paul termed the TC the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation, so you alongside everyone else transgresses that law. We MUST obey the law is an absolute and inflexible statement. You need to qualify it, if you want to obey the second greatest commandment
You see, under the new covenant it is not a matter of you MUST obey, but in your heart you WANT to obey, big difference, which may be where you are, I don't know
You want to live as God desires you to live but you much fail, as does everyone else, so you MUST needs to be qualified!!!
Now if you had said you MUST DESIRE, to live as God wants you to live, I would fully agree with that statement!

Sorry, I have no desire to discuss with you.

 

[Lizbeth]

Agreed.
You've explained the New Covenant perfectly.


External observances don't save anyone.

Correct. Jesus made commandments more stringent, not less.

We shouldn't even be THINKING/CONSIDERING cheating on our spouse.


I'm not sure you mean this the way you wrote it.

This is what you wrote:

" The old way is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (outward/carnal mind) which comes with a curse, but the new way is the Tree of Life (faith and Spirit inwardly) which brings us liberty from the curse."

Even when we become born again, we still know good and evil...that does not get erased.

Jesus warns us to ACT upon His words, as the wise man does.

Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Let's see if we can agree:
When we become born again our heart is changed into a heart of flesh.

But would you agree that we still must keep the Moral Law?

We do have to be careful because there are members on these Forums who seem to believe that we can choose to obey God or not and still be saved. This is not what Jesus taught.

We honor and obey our husband because we love him...
but there are still house rules that must be adhered to even if we would like not to.

We still must do the will of the Father...
granted it will be because we want to....
but even if we do not want to at times....some control of our nature must still be practiced.
No lies. No stealing. No coveting, etc.

I believe that with time these commandments become easier and easier....
but we must still teach/state/confirm that the Moral Law is to be obeyed.


I agree!

Jesus said that we are to love God,,,our neighbor as ourself.

This covers all the commandments, and any new situation that might come up, as you've correctly stated -
So it's always LOVE that makes us want to obey.

But can we agree that obey we must?

Is it this MUST that disturbs so many?
And yet it's what Jesus taught.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not in any way trying to undermine the value and importance of living moral and ethical lives and of not sinning, etc, and the scriptures have many warnings and admonitions, exhortations about sin.......however, I'm not sure Jesus approached it as a "must". The only "must" I can think of is where He said we "must" be born again....because that is the necessary starting point and only basis of the new way of the Spirit. His approach was that of voluntary willingness on our part, rather than being under compulsion and obligation. He said, "IF YOU WOULD be my disciples, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me" ........and "IF you love me you will obey my commandments." The gospel and the walk is for "whosoever WILL". It's kind of a subtle but important difference there, I believe. The new covenant (new way of the Spirit) can only be entered into and kept by us based on our willingness.......obligation and being under compulsion really belong to the old covenant. That's the difference of it being either from the heart inwardly (new covenant), or from outward observances (Law).

That said it does seem the Lord uses Law to train us up and discipline us like children until we mature...we seem to follow the same general pattern I would say, as the Israelites being tutored by the Law, except that we are not under it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here is where it says IN THE BIBLE that Jesus is fully human and fully God.
Fully means 100%.

And nothing can be more than 100% ...it means the entire amount. So either Jesus was 50% God and 50% human or he was 100% human or 100% God. That is mathematics, not Scripture.
There is nothing in the Bible that states that Jesus was anything other than “the son of God” which is what he called himself (John 10:36)....so I believe Jesus...who do you believe?

You do not accept John 1:1 and John 1:14 which states that THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD AND THAT WORD BECAME FLESH. Very clear but non-Christians don't seem to be able to understand that the WORD was WITH God and was GOD and then the WORD became FLESH. IOW,,,The WORD was GOD and became HUMAN (flesh).

I understand them perfectly because I have studied the Greek in which they were written. If you knew what the Greek says, you could not claim this.
John 1:1 speaks of two “gods” (theos)....one is “ho theos” (which is Yahweh)....and the other is just “theos”, which means a divine personage. Nowhere does it say that they are one person.

The Word was “with” “ho theos” (Yahweh) but the Word was not “ho theos” he was just “theos”.....which means he was not Yahweh....he was divine, or god-like.

2 Cor 4:4 calls satan “theos” and at John 10:31-26 Jesus says that God himself called human judges “gods” (theos) Look it up.

Your mindset is Iike concrete.....but it’s so completely wrong....you have been lied to.

Here is more scripture which shows Jesus to be both GOD and HUMAN.


Colossians 2:8-9
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than * according to Christ.
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

The fullness of God in bodily form.

Not all translations are as inaccurate as the ones you posted....

Here are a few more....

“Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elements of the world, rather than Christ. For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, and you have been filled by him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.” (Col 2:8-9 CSBA)

“Watch out, so that no one will take you captive by means of philosophy and empty deceit, following human tradition which accords with the elemental spirits of the world but does not accord with the Messiah. For in him, bodily, lives the fullness of all that God is. And it is in union with him that you have been made full — he is the head of every rule and authority.” (CJB)

“Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ. For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, and you have been filled by Him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.” (HCSB)

“Be careful that nobody spoils your faith through intellectualism or high-sounding nonsense. Such stuff is at best founded on men’s ideas of the nature of the world and disregards Christ! Yet it is in him that God gives a full and complete expression of himself (within the physical limits that he set himself in Christ). Moreover, your own completeness is only realised in him, who is the authority over all authorities, and the supreme power over all powers.” (MSG)

Jesus was all that God was, in human form....”the (visible) image of the invisible God” as Paul said in Col 1:15....but he wasn’t God Yahweh.

So not all translations read the same way. There is no such word as “Godhead” in the Bible, because it was invented by trinitarians to promote their doctrine.

Colossians 2:13
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

You were already shown Scripture to prove that God authorised his son to forgive sins.
Only his God could give him that authority.

A man cannot forgive sins,,,only God can forgive sin.

No...but a man authorised by God can....and did.

2:6-8
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

In VERY NATURE Jesus is God.
But He did not use this to His advatage but to ours.
Jesus made Himself NOTHING by taking the very nature of man...being made in HUMAN LIKENESS.

Jesus is in nature BOTH GOD AND MAN.

That is not the correct translation. We can have children who reflect the nature of their parents....it doesn’t mean they are one and the same person as the one they resemble.

Hebrews 2:14, 17
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.


Note: In order to become something....you would have to be somethnig else to begin with.
JESUS is God and He became MAN.
Fully God and fully man as the scriptures above state.

That’s the way you want to read it, but that is not what it says....”fully human in every way” means what it says. Jesus was 100% human. He was divine but not deity...he never once said he was.

If you reply use scripture...
your personal opinions are of no interest to me.

I can say the same...the Scripture you provide is bogus because it is so badly translated by those who were entirely biased towards their favoured doctrine.

1 Cor 10:12....is for all of us....contrast that with Matt 7:21-23....

I don’t see the point of addressing the second part of your response....

 

[GodsGrace]

It is impossible for God to die - He is immortal (which means that it is impossible to die; a dictionary definition is 'not liable or subject to death'; Strong's says 'deathlessness') - 1 Timothy 6:13,16 WEB

(13) I command you before God, ...​

(16) who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.​

Is God not able to do what He wishes to do?
Why do you limit the powers of God?

Let's see what Jesus says about His immortality:

John 2:18-22
18 The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?"
19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20 The Jews then said, "It took forty-six * * years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead,

Do you believe Jesus?

Jesus stated that 3 days after His destruction, He would raise Himself up.

HOW does a dead person raise themselves from the dead?

A perfect man can save sinful man. God's perfect justice is a life for a life - Exodus 21:23-25 WEB

(23) But if any harm follows, then you must take life for life,​

(24) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,​

(25) burning for burning, wound for wound, and bruise for bruise.​

So you're a believer in the Old Testament and believe in its Laws,
so why do you call yourself a Christian??

Christians do not believe in revenge.
This is NOT what Jesus taught.

Christians believe what Jesus taught.


Here is what Jesus taught:

Matthew 5:
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

So to redeem Adam a perfect (sinless) human man was required to give up his life, to pay the penalty for sin for Adam. God could not become a man, but He could change the nature of His only begotten Son from mortal spirit being to mortal human being, so He sent His willing Son to be our saviour - 1 John 4:14 WEB

(14) We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.​

You're a believer in the Old Testament.
The Old Testament teaches that GOD HIMSELF will save His people and will change thier heart from stone to flesh.

You say God cannot become a man....
You limit the powers of God.

God can do whatever He wishes to do.

If Jesus did not attempt to grasp equality with God, then clearly he was not God.

Oh ....you have a problem with Philippians?

Let's use a simpler version:

Philippians 2:6-10

Amplified Bible
who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it];


New International Version
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;


King James Bible
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


New King James Version
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,


Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.


English Revised Version
who, being in the form of God, counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality.

Young's Literal Translation
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,

New Revised Standard Version
who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

MSG
6 He had equal status with God but didn't think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what.

How could God highly exalt Jesus if Jesus was God? (Exalt means, according to Strong's, 'to elevate above others, that is, raise to the highest position'.)

The truth harmonises all verses of Scripture. The Trinity belief does not harmonise the Scriptures.

Yes sir. The bible does harmonize all scripture or it would be worthless.

Paul believed Jesus to be God incarnate.
Why would he then In Philippians 2 make any statement that was contrary?
Did Paul want to contradict himself?


Paul believed Jesus was God by referring to Him in that way.

Romans 10:13
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”


Joel 2:31-32
31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved;

 

[XtraPercept]

@Aunty Jane , @GodsGrace

I've yet to find desire sufficient to write a novel.

I admire the tenacity of you both.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't misunderstand me, I am not in any way trying to undermine the value and importance of living moral and ethical lives and of not sinning, etc, and the scriptures have many warnings and admonitions, exhortations about sin.......however, I'm not sure Jesus approached it as a "must". The only "must"

But Jesus DID approach it as a must. (obedience).
He stated that the foolish man who did NOT ACT on His words would end up being washed away.


Matthew 7:26:27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."


Jesus taught that if we did not bear fruit, we would be cut off from Him:

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


Jesus said IF we keep His commandments we will abide in His love:

John 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.


Jesus said that IF we do NOT abide in Him, we will be discarded:

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


And many more.....

How is that not a MUST situation?
God does not make requests...
He gives commands.
Jesus said to obey His commandments IF we love Him. John 14:15

I can think of is where He said we "must" be born again....because that is the necessary starting point and only basis of the new way of the Spirit. His approach was that of voluntary willingness on our part, rather than being under compulsion and obligation. He said, "IF YOU WOULD be my disciples, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me" ........and "IF you love me you will obey my commandments."

Exactly....
Jesus is teaching that through love we are able to obey....
the NC, as you mentioned in your first post.

Notice in your verse Jesus DOES say IF we want to be disciples we must take up our cross and follow Him...
and IF we love Him we WILL OBEY.

You seem to be agreeing.

The gospel and the walk is for "whosoever WILL". It's kind of a subtle but important difference there, I believe. The new covenant (new way of the Spirit) can only be entered into and kept by us based on our willingness.......obligation and being under compulsion really belong to the old covenant. That's the difference of it being either from the heart inwardly (new covenant), or from outward observances (Law).

Yes, there is a nuance here that is difficult to get a hold of.
We obey through love.
But obedience is a must.

What if we decided to stop obeying God?
It happens.

Or, maybe we can answer this simple question, to which I've not yet received a reply:

After salvation,,,are we required to obey God?

I say Yes.

That said it does seem the Lord uses Law to train us up and discipline us like children until we mature...we seem to follow the same general pattern I would say, as the Israelites being tutored by the Law, except that we are not under it.

We are not under The Law.
But the Moral Law is eternal and must be obeyed.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Aunty Jane , @GodsGrace

I've yet to find desire sufficient to write a novel.

I admire the tenacity of you both.

You're pretty new here XP.
Let me fill you in.
Aunty Jane writes novels....
I've told her many times that I find it almost impossible to speak to her due to the fact
that her posts take A LOT of time to respond to if we want to be clear and accurate.

A few times, I've taken the time necessary to respond because I think this is such an important topic.
A FEW times.
This was one of them.
And I basically post for those reading along....

Arianism has reared its ugly head...it was killed in the early church,
but about 200 years ago, some decided that Jesus is not God.

That is not Christianity as we've known it and it must be addressed.
Jesus is God incarnate.

 

[XtraPercept]

You're pretty new here XP.
Let me fill you in.

That was very kind of you, thank you :)

 

[GodsGrace]

And nothing can be more than 100% ...it means the entire amount. So either Jesus was 50% God and 50% human or he was 100% human or 100% God. That is mathematics, not Scripture.

It's apparent that you do not accept what the bible simply states.
Again,,you have no scripture but only opinion.

The word FULLY means FULLY.
FULLY means 100% NOT 50%.

Please provide scripture.

There is nothing in the Bible that states that Jesus was anything other than “the son of God” which is what he called himself (John 10:36)....so I believe Jesus...who do you believe?

I believe Jesus but YOU do not.
I provide scripture YOU do not.

What you believe is of no interest to me.
Guess you haven't understood that yet.

You do not accept plain scripture...
you have no regard for the Word of God,
and
in fact, your sect has written its very own bible version.

I understand them perfectly because I have studied the Greek in which they were written. If you knew what the Greek says, you could not claim this.
John 1:1 speaks of two “gods” (theos)....one is “ho theos” (which is Yahweh)....and the other is just “theos”, which means a divine personage. Nowhere does it say that they are one person.

The Word was “with” “ho theos” (Yahweh) but the Word was not “ho theos” he was just “theos”.....which means he was not Yahweh....he was divine, or god-like.

Good try.
When theology doesn't work....
non-believers turn to "the Greek".

As if YOU understood Greek more than the translators.
It states WAS GOD in every version I have,,,except YOURS.

I can post John 1:1 and John 1:14, but I cannot make you understand it.
The brainwashing is complete.

I've asked but received no reply from you.

John 1:1 speaks of A WORD.

Whatever the WORD is,
it became FLESH and dwelt among us.

No need for Greek.
WHAT became flesh??

2 Cor 4:4 calls satan “theos” and at John 10:31-26 Jesus says that God himself called human judges “gods” (theos) Look it up.

No need to look anything up Auntie Jane.
Please stop being so condescending - which is why I avoid you.
We all know the bible has gods mentioned.

Jesus is NOT one of them.
Jesus is God..
He is both God and Man and I've provided scripture.

I don't see any in return.
This speaks volumes.

Your mindset is Iike concrete.....but it’s so completely wrong....you have been lied to.

Not all translations are as inaccurate as the ones you posted....

Here are a few more....

“Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elements of the world, rather than Christ. For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, and you have been filled by him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.” (Col 2:8-9 CSBA)

Yes Ma'am.
Perfect verse for YOU...
You have been taken captive through philosophy.

And thanks for proving, once again, that Jesus is God...

You quoted Colossians 2:8-9, one of the best verses to shows that Jesus is God.

Let's see:
YOU posted:

For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ,

“Watch out, so that no one will take you captive by means of philosophy and empty deceit, following human tradition which accords with the elemental spirits of the world but does not accord with the Messiah. For in him, bodily, lives the fullness of all that God is. And it is in union with him that you have been made full — he is the head of every rule and authority.” (CJB)

Ditto
Thanks again!

“Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ. For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ, and you have been filled by Him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.” (HCSB)

Ditto.
Thanks again.

“Be careful that nobody spoils your faith through intellectualism or high-sounding nonsense. Such stuff is at best founded on men’s ideas of the nature of the world and disregards Christ! Yet it is in him that God gives a full and complete expression of himself (within the physical limits that he set himself in Christ). Moreover, your own completeness is only realised in him, who is the authority over all authorities, and the supreme power over all powers.” (MSG)

Jesus was all that God was, in human form....”the (visible) image of the invisible God” as Paul said in Col 1:15....but he wasn’t God Yahweh.

Yes ma'am.
Jesus is the visible image of God.

Jesus also stated that no one has seen the Father but Him.
When do you suppose Jesus saw God?

And we've been through the fact that Jesus is Yahweh.

Refresher course:

God is the I AM.
Jesus refers to HIMSELF as I AM.

God is the first and the last.
Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.

So not all translations read the same way. There is no such word as “Godhead” in the Bible, because it was invented by trinitarians to promote their doctrine.

BUT
As Wesley Huff would say (sorry he's not a JW but a REAL scholar of the bible)
the variations do NOT change Christian theology.

And, in fact, every version you've listed above maintains that Jesus is the entire fullness of God.
IOW....He is God.

You were already shown Scripture to prove that God authorised his son to forgive sins.
Only his God could give him that authority.

Jesus was given authority over the earth.
He is Lord over all creation.

I can give you authority to drive my car....
but you already have to know how to drive.

No...but a man authorised by God can....and did.

That is not the correct translation. We can have children who reflect the nature of their parents....it doesn’t mean they are one and the same person as the one they resemble.

Children DO have the nature of their parents.
Just as Jesus has the same nature as God.
Jesus is also NOT the same Person as the Father.

No Christian will ever claim that.

That’s the way you want to read it, but that is not what it says....”fully human in every way” means what it says. Jesus was 100% human. He was divine but not deity...he never once said he was.

Thank you for agreeing that Jesus was 100% human !
Up above you mentioned something about 50% --- that is wrong, of course.

I can say the same...the Scripture you provide is bogus because it is so badly translated by those who were entirely biased towards their favoured doctrine.

1 Cor 10:12....is for all of us....contrast that with Matt 7:21-23....

I don’t see the point of addressing the second part of your response....

Because you probably have not been trained in HOW to reply to it.
But no matter.
I've not posted a lot of scripture due to time constraints...
but I'm happy to see that you DO understand some scripture but are just unwilling to accept it.

 

[Lizbeth]

The carnal mind is ENMITY with God, and can't perceive the things of God. I wonder then why many rely on it so much. They do so to their peril. The deity of Christ is revealed through many scriptures by the Holy Spirit.....even the old testament testifies as to Who Christ is. Our brains of flesh are "weak" as is all of our flesh...too weak to grasp things of the Spirit. We always need ears to hear and eyes to see, which comes only from the Spirit of God/Christ. "Blessed are you Simon Bar Jonah for man did not REVEAL this to you, but my Father in heaven." We sure do need to be careful of the teachings of man.

 

[XtraPercept]

Our brains of flesh are "weak" as is all of our flesh...too weak to grasp things of the Spirit.

What a disconnect!

What is the brain but the organ by which we have come to associate ones capacity of mind?

What is the Spirit but that which the Creator constructed for the express purpose of contacting Him?

The flesh cannot contact the Spirit, it is the spirit which contacts the Spirit;

The spirit of a man is the content of that which he brings to his mind as dictated by the intent of his heart.

 

[XtraPercept]

The spirit of a man is the content of that which he brings to his mind as dictated by the intent of his heart.

The LORD establishes a name by the intent of the man associated.

What I Am establishes stands forever.

It is my intent to serve Him to the fullest capacity He has made available for an undeserving man such as myself.

And my passion is the Word.

 

[GodsGrace]

What a disconnect!

What is the brain but the organ by which we have come to associate ones capacity of mind?

What is the Spirit but that which the Creator constructed for the express purpose of contacting Him?

The flesh cannot contact the Spirit, it is the spirit which contacts the Spirit;

The spirit of a man is the content of that which he brings to his mind as dictated by the intent of his heart.

I believe what @Lizbeth wrote is correct.
I BELIEVE what she's saying is that we cannot percieve God with our brain ALONE....
although certainly some have come to God through the thinking process.

I think she's saying that we need the Holy Spirit to understand the word of God and we are NOT to obey man-made doctrine/theology, call it what you will.

This is confimred in

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot * understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


Those that depend on their denomination to know God are most probably missing a lot.
I grew up in the CC and even had to learn its theology more recently, but I know for sure that some of what
they teach is found nowhere in the NT...and what is not found in the NT is to be disregarded.


We are NOT to depend on man,
but on God who sent the Holy Spirit for a purpose,
but some will not accept what is plain and clear....


1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


The later times souds to me like about 200 years ago.

 

[Lizbeth]

But Jesus DID approach it as a must. (obedience).
He stated that the foolish man who did NOT ACT on His words would end up being washed away.


Matthew 7:26:27
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."


Jesus taught that if we did not bear fruit, we would be cut off from Him:

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;


Jesus said IF we keep His commandments we will abide in His love:

John 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.


Jesus said that IF we do NOT abide in Him, we will be discarded:

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


And many more.....

How is that not a MUST situation?
God does not make requests...
He gives commands.
Jesus said to obey His commandments IF we love Him. John 14:15


Exactly....
Jesus is teaching that through love we are able to obey....
the NC, as you mentioned in your first post.

Notice in your verse Jesus DOES say IF we want to be disciples we must take up our cross and follow Him...
and IF we love Him we WILL OBEY.

You seem to be agreeing.

Yes, there is a nuance here that is difficult to get a hold of.
We obey through love.
But obedience is a must.

What if we decided to stop obeying God?
It happens.

Or, maybe we can answer this simple question, to which I've not yet received a reply:

After salvation,,,are we required to obey God?

I say Yes.


We are not under The Law.
But the Moral Law is eternal and must be obeyed.

I just perceive the Lord working through our willingness. And He does everything possible to help us become and be willing, as we are His workmanship. When we were children we were under constraint and fear of punishment, yes, and our obedience was often reluctant and heel-dragging, but as we grew and matured and were being formed, we began to realize the wisdom of what our parents were trying to teach us and now obey and follow what they taught willingly and voluntarily, and with no longer needing to contend with the reluctance of our baser childish inclinations either. Here's another scripture...."IF YOU WOULD be perfect......" The word "would" implies willingness. Jesus is not demanding it. Law is there to teach and train us as we need it, and in whatever areas we need it (we might be more mature in some areas but not yet in others) but then at some point we are to become adults.

Nobody is going to deliberately flout God's laws and sin their way to heaven, that's for sure, God is not mocked. But under the new covenant there is a lot more mercy and grace (because we need it!) as we learn and grow than there was under the Law. We all fall short and make mistakes in ways that are not deliberate, but are in spite of our ourselves and our best efforts, and yet He does not automatically punish or cut us off for it. "If I do that I don't want to do, it is no longer I who do it but sin living in me." I would say God certainly WANTS us to obey Him and line up with His commands which represent the image and likeness of Jesus, rather than that He is demanding it per se. It is a mutual love relationship we are in with the Lord, based on His unfathomable and undeserved generosity and grace towards us, not a relationship of tyranny. The new covenant that Malachi was calling out for, is the heart of the Father for His children and the children for their Father, no longer under a curse.

 

[Lizbeth]

What a disconnect!

What is the brain but the organ by which we have come to associate ones capacity of mind?

What is the Spirit but that which the Creator constructed for the express purpose of contacting Him?

The flesh cannot contact the Spirit, it is the spirit which contacts the Spirit;

The spirit of a man is the content of that which he brings to his mind as dictated by the intent of his heart.

We are to have the mind of Christ.....our minds need to be fed and illuminated by His Spirit (Tree of Life) to become the mind of Christ could we say?....not the Tree of dead carnal Knowledge. "Let this mind be in you, which also was in Christ Jesus....."

 

[GodsGrace]

I just perceive the Lord working through our willingness. And He does everything possible to help us become and be willing, as we are His workmanship.

What are we His workmanship for?

When we were children we were under constraint and fear of punishment, yes, and our obedience was often reluctant and heel-dragging, but as we grew and matured and were being formed, we began to realize the wisdom of what our parents were trying to teach us and now obey and follow what they taught willingly and voluntarily, and with no longer needing to contend with the reluctance of our baser childish inclinations either.

I never feared God.
I always tried to live for Him.
I don't care for analogies - God is not human.
What you're doing is comparing the law to grace...
then just do that.


Paul said we are not to walk in the flesh but in the spirit.
He said this to Christians.

I've had this convo many times before and I don't understand where the nuance is....
it's a tiny nuance but it seems to make a difference.
(because we basically agree).

Here's another scripture...."IF YOU WOULD be perfect......" The word "would" implies willingness. Jesus is not demanding it. Law is there to teach and train us as we need it, and in whatever areas we need it (we might be more mature in some areas but not yet in others) but then at some point we are to become adults.

I agree.
Some change overnight....
and others take time.

I agree that IF YOU WOULD BE PERFECT implies willingness.
It would have been up to the Rich Man to go and sell everything...

But the Rich Young Man went away sad.

Nobody is going to deliberately flout God's laws and sin their way to heaven, that's for sure,

Lizabeth...I know you've been on these Forums a long time.
It's hard to believe you've just stated that.

Here's what I've heard/read:
1. So called believers stating that once they're saved they can never lose their salvation..
2. They could blasphem God and still be saved (those very words).
3. They don't need to do anything because God has done it all.
4. It's A SIN to try to help God with our good deeds - they are as filthy rags.

God is not mocked. But under the new covenant there is a lot more mercy and grace (because we need it!) as we learn and grow than there was under the Law. We all fall short and make mistakes in ways that are not deliberate, but are in spite of our ourselves and our best efforts, and yet He does not automatically punish or cut us off for it.

Are we going to get into HOW MANY SINS MUST I COMMIT BEFORE I'M CUT OFF...
??

These conversations could go on forever.
John said we will sin.
He said we have an advocate.
He said our sins will be forgiven.

Right.
God will not be mocked.
Let's make that clear in these threads?

"If I do that I don't want to do, it is no longer I who do it but sin living in me." I would say God certainly WANTS us to obey Him and line up with His commands which represent the image and likeness of Jesus, rather than that He is demanding it per se. It is a mutual love relationship we are in with the Lord, based on His unfathomable and undeserved generosity and grace towards us, not a relationship of tyranny. The new covenant that Malachi was calling out for, is the heart of the Father for His children and the children for their Father, no longer under a curse.

Does my stating that we must obey God sound like it's a relationship of tryranny?
Or does it sound like it's GOD we're having this relationship with?

Please answer my simple question:

AFTER salvation,,,are we required to obey God.

I say Yes.

Jesus expects from us.


Matthew 25:14-30
14 "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.

15 "To one he gave five talents, to another *, two, and to another *, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.

16 "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.

17 "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.

18 "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

19 "Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.

20 "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'

21 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'

22 "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'

23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'

24 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.

25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'

26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.

27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.

28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'

29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.

30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.