"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[BreadOfLife]

So what do you know about God, our Creator?

Much, but not ALL..

Are you a 'Christian' first or a Roman Catholic? And I did mean Roman Catholic and not Catholic, deliberately.

Tell me in your estimation - what's the difference?

 

[saved by grace 101]

Well, if you were seeking God, I could help you.

Im sure you feel you could help most people here, if not all!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well you'll never know will you, as you are not confident enough to start a thread and lay out your churches belief on the subject

That's what I figured you'd say . . .

 

[XtraPercept]

Well speaking personally, every day when I open my bible I pray the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of what I am reading to me
Is that something you feel the need to criticise?

Im sure you feel you could help most people here, if not all!

Yeah, I posted that too quickly, sorry.

The point is that there is a process you are not following.

What is the thinking behind saying "you don't need to learn the Greek"?

Why are you trying to put me down for studying more than you?

This is just what I love to do.

 

[saved by grace 101]

What is the thinking behind saying "you don't need to learn the Greek"?

If people want to learn the greek fine, but I am convinced the Holy Spirit can work with a reputable translation of the bible in english to teach you everything he wants you to know

 

[XtraPercept]

If people want to learn the greek fine, but I am convinced the Holy Spirit can work with a reputable translation of the bible in english to teach you everything he wants you to know

You are convinced.

I am certain that I Am is Certain.

 

[Justified]

How about this, that at Yeshua's anointing, the Spirit and word of God, his Father, his divine presence, the so-called 'godhead,' entered into his Son's spirit and mind. They thus at that point forward, began to work as if they were One, one Spirit, although still two spirits, one human spirit empowered by the divine Spirit of his Father.

That's not too far off from what I said. The Holy Spirit was in Jesus, as well as the Father, but also the Son, since it was the Son who was incarnate, not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.

To bring this back to the topic of this thread, Jesus claimed to be I Am, in John 8:58. If he wasn't truly the I Am (of Ex. 3:14) or didn't have eternal existence, then by not clarifying that to his listeners, he let them think something that he didn't at all mean and to believe he was someone or something that he wasn't.

Instead, we see that they understood full well, and wanted to kill him for it.

 

[JustMe]

That's not too far off from what I said. The Holy Spirit was in Jesus, as well as the Father, but also the Son, since it was the Son who was incarnate, not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.

No. it's miles apart I'm afraid. I don't do the Trinity and the incarnation device, and do not acknowledge that there is such a person called the Holy Spirit unless you mean the Spirit of the Father and he personifies himself once in awhile. I strictly stick to what scripture speaks to me through the Father's spirit and not by the spirits of men.

Thanks though for reading my post.

 

[Justified]

Why not rejoice in the fact what you can learn is nothing of you but everything of the Spirit in you, then you can give God all the glory. I would say that is good theology, wouldn't you?

But, you are saying the Holy Spirit taught you something that the Bible doesn't teach. Do you really want to rejoice in that? God never bypasses our minds; he fully expects us to use them, with the help of the Holy Spirit. It is a false dichotomy to say that it is either the mind or the Holy Spirit.

The issue is that many Christians, even entire denominations, teach things that "the Holy Spirit revealed to them," yet which clearly contradict Scripture.

 

[JustMe]

Much, but not ALL..

Tell me in your estimation - what's the difference?

I had already assumed that you might frequently be unnecessarily argumentative because of a lack of understanding, ignorance or deliberately evasive of a subject, acting as stubborn defense mechanisms similar to scattering distractions like chaff, when faced with clear and honest questions. Thank you for your honest reply.

 

[Justified]

No. it's miles apart I'm afraid. I don't do the Trinity and the incarnation device, and do not acknowledge that there is such a person called the Holy Spirit unless you mean the Spirit of the Father and he personifies himself once in awhile. I strictly stick to what scripture speaks to me through the Father's spirit and not by the spirits of men.

I am always amazed at how many people like to think that they're the ones the Spirit speaks to, even when their beliefs either ignore or cannot take into account the full biblical context, or contradict others who claim they are only taught by the Spirit and "not by the spirits of men." How do you know you're not listening to your own spirit?

Perhaps you would like to address what I stated about John 8:58.

Thanks though for reading my post.

Of course.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I had already assumed that you might frequently be unnecessarily argumentative because of a lack of understanding, ignorance or deliberately evasive of a subject, acting as stubborn defense mechanisms similar to scattering distractions like chaff, when faced with clear and honest questions. Thank you for your honest reply.

Sooo, it is that you don’t know – or hat you just want to be argumentative?
I asked you a valid question: What’s the difference between a Christian, a Cathollic and a Roman Catholic?

If you can’t answer the question - just say so . . .

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm happy to see that you DO understand some scripture but are just unwilling to accept it.

I am saddened at seeing the tenacity of your failure to read the Scriptures I have always used in my posts to you....it’s a certain kind of blindness...one that cannot accept that, what has been indoctrinated in you is false, but set in concrete. Jesus spoke of the Pharisees and said that their teachings and traditions had replaced the importance of Scripture....

“You hypocrites! How rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” (Matt 15:7-9 New Catholic Bible)

Isaiah was quoting God’s words, (Isa 29:13) originally directed to the hypocritical leaders of his day.....they hadn’t changed by the time Christ arrived as Messiah, but had continued on in their own way....so, the religion that was practiced in Jesus’ day was still not acceptable to the one they claimed was their God.

When Jesus took up his ministry, it had been over 300 years since God had sent a prophet to correct his people.....he had tried so many times to keep them on track, but they were “stiff necked” proud and unteachable, like many are today....so he left them to their own devices until his purpose in connection with them was fulfilled....and then, when he had presented his Messiah, and they rejected him, he cast them off, establishing a new “Israel”......”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) who were made up of both Jewish and Gentile disciples of Jesus.

Don’t look now, but history is repeating.....again there is about to be a separation of the genuine “Christians” from the false ones, whom Jesus said the devil would set up as a counterfeit. The first seeds of this counterfeit (weed like) “Christianity” were sown at the end of the first century and flourished after the death of the apostles.....this is “the church” served by the majority trapped in “Babylon the great”...the devil’s entire world empire of false religion....a virtual smorgasbord of religions that are designed to lead people away from the true God....making true worship look like apostasy to whatever religion one subscribes to, either by birth or by choice......and the choices are endless! There is one true religion...and always has been.

Those in “Babylon the great” are told to “get out of her” because God is about to deliver his justice upon her. (Rev 18:4-5)
Those who have not obeyed that directive, will go down with that sinking ship. A great reset is about to take place...one that will dwarf even the flood of Noah’s day for magnitude.

Are we on the ark, or outside of it? (Matt 24:37-39)

 

[saved by grace 101]

But, you are saying the Holy Spirit taught you something that the Bible doesn't teach. Do you really want to rejoice in that? God never bypasses our minds; he fully expects us to use them, with the help of the Holy Spirit. It is a false dichotomy to say that it is either the mind or the Holy Spirit.

The issue is that many Christians, even entire denominations, teach things that "the Holy Spirit revealed to them," yet which clearly contradict Scripture.

Yep, you use your minds to read, but how do you figure out the truth of what you are reading? By yourself, or through the Holy Spirit who shows you? Does your natural mind give you understanding of spiritual truth?
And who decides what clearly contradicts scripture? I mean, you could have a lengthy debate with someone, you both bring huge amounts of the word to the discussion, and with your reasoning you both have come to differing conclusions. The other person is just as convinced they are as right as you are, you are both convinced the other is contradicting the true message of scripture

 

[Justified]

Yep, you use your minds to read, but how do you figure out the truth of what you are reading? By yourself, or through the Holy Spirit who shows you? Does your natural mind give you understanding of spiritual truth?
And who decides what clearly contradicts scripture? I mean, you could have a lengthy debate with someone, you both bring huge amounts of the word to the discussion, and with your reasoning you both have come to differing conclusions. The other person is just as convinced they are as right as you are, you are both convinced the other is contradicting the true message of scripture

That is precisely my point. You claim you are taught by the Holy Spirit, as do I and every other Christian. Yet you and I disagree. Hence why claiming to only be taught by the Spirit doesn’t work. That isn’t biblical.

The reason is that no matter how much you think it is only the Holy Spirit, it isn’t. Every single believer reads and understands the Bible through their own lens, which includes what they have read in books, heard in sermons, discussed with others, and experienced. While the Holy Spirit must always be relied upon and does illumine things for us as we study, it is an inescapable fact that he does not bypass our minds, and so we bring all that is in our minds and hearts into the interpretive process and, therefore, into our understanding.

We must all be humble enough to admit this, or we risk shutting ourselves off to God’s correction where we are wrong. That is all the more important when we consider that God speaks to us through others, just as he does through Scripture. Paul said that “now we see in a mirror dimly” (1 Cor. 13:12), which means even he thought he didn’t see it all clearly. We would all do well to take that seriously.

 

[saved by grace 101]

That is precisely my point. You claim you are taught by the Holy Spirit, as do I and every other Christian. Yet you and I disagree. Hence why claiming to only be taught by the Spirit doesn’t work. That isn’t biblical.

The reason is that no matter how much you think it is only the Holy Spirit, it isn’t. Every single believer reads and understands the Bible through their own lens, which includes what they have read in books, heard in sermons, discussed with others, and experienced. While the Holy Spirit must always be relied upon and does illumine things for us as we study, it is an inescapable fact that he does not bypass our minds, and so we bring all that is in our minds and hearts into the interpretive process and, therefore, into our understanding.

We must all be humble enough to admit this, or we risk shutting ourselves off to God’s correction where we are wrong. That is all the more important when we consider that God speaks to us through others, just as he does through Scripture. Paul said that “now we see in a mirror dimly” (1 Cor. 13:12), which means even he thought he didn’t see it all clearly. We would all do well to take that seriously.

Well wouldnt you agree then it is our minds reasoning that brings the disagreements, the Holy Spirit would not contradict himself. We can be one in the Spirit, of one heart and one mind, but that would mean yielding completely to the Spirits leading

 

[saved by grace 101]

That is precisely my point. You claim you are taught by the Holy Spirit, as do I and every other Christian. Yet you and I disagree. Hence why claiming to only be taught by the Spirit doesn’t work. That isn’t biblical.

The reason is that no matter how much you think it is only the Holy Spirit, it isn’t. Every single believer reads and understands the Bible through their own lens, which includes what they have read in books, heard in sermons, discussed with others, and experienced. While the Holy Spirit must always be relied upon and does illumine things for us as we study, it is an inescapable fact that he does not bypass our minds, and so we bring all that is in our minds and hearts into the interpretive process and, therefore, into our understanding.

We must all be humble enough to admit this, or we risk shutting ourselves off to God’s correction where we are wrong. That is all the more important when we consider that God speaks to us through others, just as he does through Scripture. Paul said that “now we see in a mirror dimly” (1 Cor. 13:12), which means even he thought he didn’t see it all clearly. We would all do well to take that seriously.

Im not going to start another lengthy debate over Trinity. But I tell people on websites I believe the words of Jesus, the Father is the only true God, greater than he and greater than all. Now on the internet, I get told by many you cannot be saved if you believe that. So, people have used their studying/reasoning, to decide in reality, if you stand on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth you will be condemned to hell. Of course, with their reasoning they feel fully justified in their beliefs. They may even quote fifty scriptures to try and prove it.
But here's the interesting thing. I have been to trinitarian churches of various denominations for over forty years. My best guess is, amongst the churches I have been to, over half the people in them would solely refer to Christ as the Son of God, and well over90% of people would happily accept anyone as a Christian who solely refers to Christ as the son of God.
So why the huge difference between the internet and the churches? Well, the average pew sitter has studied nowhere near as much as the average internet debater, so they have not used their reasoning as much have they

 

[JustMe]

I am always amazed at how many people like to think that they're the ones the Spirit speaks to, even when their beliefs either ignore or cannot take into account the full biblical context, or contradict others who claim they are only taught by the Spirit and "not by the spirits of men." How do you know you're not listening to your own spirit?

Perhaps you would like to address what I stated about John 8:58.


Of course.

I don't know what you said for John 8:58 when Yeshua answered his audience that he was in the mind and plan of God before Abraham and greater that him.

 

[JustMe]

Sooo, it is that you don’t know – or hat you just want to be argumentative?
I asked you a valid question: What’s the difference between a Christian, a Cathollic and a Roman Catholic?

If you can’t answer the question - just say so . . .

As I just said, and my assumption stands as truth, I ask you simple questions and you answer with your own, purposely! You just cannot help yourself can you.

 

[saved by grace 101]

I don't know what you said for John 8:58 when Yeshua answered his audience that he was in the mind and plan of God before Abraham and greater that him.

For me, its important to note who actually utttered the words from the burning bush. God spoke THROUGH an angel(Acts7:35) As God spoke through Christ. Or, the angel uttered the words of God, as did Christ