When Jesus returns at the last trumpet, death will be swallowed up in victory and there will then be no more death, which will fulfill Isaiah 25:8.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amil believers, put these things on the chart in order. You don't have to make a chart, just a list.

1. Antichrist commits the sit in the temple act of 2Thessalonians2:4

Douggg, it's silly to ask us to list things in order when we don't even have the same understanding of these things as you do. I don't believe in a future individual Antichrist. John was clear that there are many antichrists, not just one.

2. AoD image set up

Douggg, again, it's silly to ask us questions according to how you understand things. Not all Amils believe everything the same, but many of us believe the AoD occurred in 70 AD. We are so far apart on end times doctrine that it's barely even worth the time to talk to you about it.

 

[rwb]

You are mistaken. People are still dying. Read 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. That is saying that death will be swallowed up in victory when the resurrection of the dead and the changing of everyone's body occurs. That has obviously not yet occurred.

Only the mortal body of believers dies when we breathe our last! Our spirit alive after our body breathes its last returns to God ALIVE, living souls the spiritual body of Christ in heaven who are as the angels in heaven spirit without physical form.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Only the mortal body of believers dies when we breathe our last!

Of course. Did you think I said otherwise? I certainly did not.

Do you have any thoughts about my original post of this thread? Would you agree with me that Paul referencing the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8 in 1 Corinthians 15:54 and John referencing the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8 in Revelation 21:4 shows that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in at the last trumpet?

 

[rwb]

Of course. Did you think I said otherwise? I certainly did not.

Do you have any thoughts about my original post of this thread? Would you agree with me that Paul referencing the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8 in 1 Corinthians 15:54 and John referencing the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8 in Revelation 21:4 shows that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in at the last trumpet?

I believe the Old Testament prophecies began to come to pass when Christ, the promised Messiah came to earth a man, and that these prophecies have been and are on-going spiritually speaking from the first advent of Christ until they culminate with the second coming of Christ. But none of the prophecies of Old specifically speak of the second coming of Christ, they all prophesy only that Messiah would come and all that is written regarding Him would be fulfilled when He came. It is only after Christ's first coming in time, that He can be said to come again after time is finished.

I do agree with the point you make that there shall not be a millennial reign on this earth after Christ comes again. And that when He comes again, He shall usher in the new heavens and new earth where resurrected immortal saints shall be with Christ forever. But death for Christians was defeated by Christ's atoning blood and bodily resurrection from the tomb. The second death in the lake of fire, death & the grave (hell) shall then be defeated also for all who are found written in the book of life when Christ comes again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe the Old Testament prophecies began to come to pass when Christ, the promised Messiah came to earth a man, and that these prophecies have been and are on-going spiritually speaking from the first advent of Christ until they culminate with the second coming of Christ. But none of the prophecies of Old specifically speak of the second coming of Christ, they all prophesy only that Messiah would come and all that is written regarding Him would be fulfilled when He came. It is only after Christ's first coming in time, that He can be said to come again after time is finished.

I am not saying that Isaiah 25:8 specifically references the second coming of Christ. There are no OT scriptures which explicitly refer to His second coming. But, surely, not all OT prophecies are already fulfilled. There are OT prophecies that refer to things like the judgment, the resurrection of the dead and the new heavens and new earth. We know now that all those things are related to the second coming of Christ, but the OT does not explicitly tell us that anywhere.

I do agree with the point you make that there shall not be a millennial reign on this earth after Christ comes again. And that when He comes again, He shall usher in the new heavens and new earth where resurrected immortal saints shall be with Christ forever. But death for Christians was defeated by Christ's atoning blood and bodily resurrection from the tomb. The second death in the lake of fire, death & the grave (hell) shall then be defeated also for all who are found written in the book of life when Christ comes again.

Let me ask a few questions for clarification of your view, as it relates specifically to this thread.

Do you think that 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, which references the last trumpet sounding at which point the dead are raised and at which point we will all be changed to put on bodily immortality, will be fulfilled when Christ returns?

Do you believe that 1 Corinthians 15:54 refers to the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8?

As an Amil, you, of course, believe that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in when Jesus comes again and you stated that here. So, that means you believe that Revelation 21:1-4 will be fulfilled when Christ returns (it's a second coming related event, in other words). With that in mind, do you believe that Revelation 21:1-4 refers to the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8-9, which would then mean that Isaiah 25:8-9 will be fulfilled when Christ come again even though the text in Isaiah 25:8-9 itself makes no mention of His second coming?

 

[rwb]

I am not saying that Isaiah 25:8 specifically references the second coming of Christ. There are no OT scriptures which explicitly refer to His second coming. But, surely, not all OT prophecies are already fulfilled. There are OT prophecies that refer to things like the judgment, the resurrection of the dead and the new heavens and new earth. We know now that all those things are related to the second coming of Christ, but the OT does not explicitly tell us that anywhere.

I agree not all the OT prophecies have been physically fulfilled. Rather they are being fulfilled spiritually. However much of what the prophets foretell have come when the promised Messiah came and have been/are being spiritually fulfilled.

Look for example at Is 25:6 ¶ And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Mount Zion, that is in Jerusalem above, for it is there that ALL PEOPLE of faith in Messiah to come would feast and be refined. IOW I believe the prophet is spiritually speaking of things that shall spiritually come to pass when Messiah came physically to Jerusalem with the spiritual Kingdom of God, where much of what the prophets foretell have been and are being spiritually fulfilled. Make unto all people - provide salvation for all people, not only to the Jews but to people everywhere.

Isaiah 25:7 (KJV) And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

When the promised Messiah would come He will abolish, remove, take away the covering from the face, the vail that kept first the Jews and then all people in darkness through the power of death that hang over them. In Christ the vail, covering is removed that man might know through the Messiah the fear of death is removed forever.

Isaiah 25:8 (KJV) He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

It was through the Messiah's glorious death and resurrection that He was victorious over death. Not only death of the body that shall be when believers are bodily resurrected when the last trumpet sounds, but spiritually death of spirit/soul has already been defeated for all who believe in Him.

While I agree wholeheartedly with the way you view immortal life when we are bodily resurrected, you make no distinction between that which shall physically be when Christ comes again, and that eternal life which has spiritually come already to whosoever has been born again.

Do you think that 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, which references the last trumpet sounding at which point the dead are raised and at which point we will all be changed to put on bodily immortality, will be fulfilled when Christ returns?

Yes.

Do you believe that 1 Corinthians 15:54 refers to the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8?

I believe Isaiah references eternal spiritual life for believers through the cross and resurrection, that extends beyond spiritual life believers possess from the moment we have been born again, to immortal physical life we shall possess when the last trumpet sounds.

With that in mind, do you believe that Revelation 21:1-4 refers to the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8-9, which would then mean that Isaiah 25:8-9 will be fulfilled when Christ come again even though the text in Isaiah 25:8-9 itself makes no mention of His second coming?

I would say Isaiah 25:8-9 has been and is being spiritually fulfilled as believers are spiritually born again and possess eternal spiritual life before we physically die. And that the prophesy shall be literally/physically fulfilled when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree not all the OT prophecies have been physically fulfilled. Rather they are being fulfilled spiritually. However much of what the prophets foretell have come when the promised Messiah came and have been/are being spiritually fulfilled.

Look for example at Is 25:6 ¶ And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Mount Zion, that is in Jerusalem above, for it is there that ALL PEOPLE of faith in Messiah to come would feast and be refined. IOW I believe the prophet is spiritually speaking of things that shall spiritually come to pass when Messiah came physically to Jerusalem with the spiritual Kingdom of God, where much of what the prophets foretell have been and are being spiritually fulfilled. Make unto all people - provide salvation for all people, not only to the Jews but to people everywhere.

Isaiah 25:7 (KJV) And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

When the promised Messiah would come He will abolish, remove, take away the covering from the face, the vail that kept first the Jews and then all people in darkness through the power of death that hang over them. In Christ the vail, covering is removed that man might know through the Messiah the fear of death is removed forever.

Isaiah 25:8 (KJV) He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

It was through the Messiah's glorious death and resurrection that He was victorious over death. Not only death of the body that shall be when believers are bodily resurrected when the last trumpet sounds, but spiritually death of spirit/soul has already been defeated for all who believe in Him.

While I agree wholeheartedly with the way you view immortal life when we are bodily resurrected, you make no distinction between that which shall physically be when Christ comes again, and that eternal life which has spiritually come already to whosoever has been born again.

The context of 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 is in relation to the bodily resurrection of the dead and the change of our bodies from mortal to immortal. And Paul references Isaiah 25:8 in relation to 1 Corinthians 15:54. Therefore, I see Isaiah 25:8 as being specifically related to the time when the seventh trumpet sounds, at which point the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected and all who are in Christ (the resurrected and those who are alive and remain until His second coming) will be changed to put on bodily immortality. I see no reason to make any distinction between eternal spiritual life and eternal bodily life in relation to these verses because it's eternal bodily life that is being referenced in them.

I believe Isaiah references eternal spiritual life for believers through the cross and resurrection, that extends beyond spiritual life believers possess from the moment we have been born again, to immortal physical life we shall possess when the last trumpet sounds.

I don't see Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, as referencing Isaiah 25:8 in any other sense than in relation to immortal bodily life, so I don't see him as talking about anything beyond that.

I would say Isaiah 25:8-9 has been and is being spiritually fulfilled as believers are spiritually born again and possess eternal spiritual life before we physically die. And that the prophesy shall be literally/physically fulfilled when the last trumpet sounds.

I don't personally see anything related to that in that passage. And the NT passages that reference it (1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Revelation 21:1-4) relate to the future time when the last trumpet sounds at Christ's return and the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. We will put on bodily immortality at that time.

I have nothing more to say about this. There's no sense arguing over whether part of Isaiah 25:8-9 relates to eternal spiritual life or not. The main thing to me is that we agree that Jesus will return at the last trumpet and will then usher in the new heavens and new earth where we will have eternal, immortal bodily life.

 

[rwb]

The context of 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 is in relation to the bodily resurrection of the dead and the change of our bodies from mortal to immortal. And Paul references Isaiah 25:8 in relation to 1 Corinthians 15:54. Therefore, I see Isaiah 25:8 as being specifically related to the time when the seventh trumpet sounds, at which point the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected and all who are in Christ (the resurrected and those who are alive and remain until His second coming) will be changed to put on bodily immortality. I see no reason to make any distinction between eternal spiritual life and eternal bodily life in relation to these verses because it's eternal bodily life that is being referenced in them.


I don't see Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, as referencing Isaiah 25:8 in any other sense than in relation to immortal bodily life, so I don't see him as talking about anything beyond that.


I don't personally see anything related to that in that passage. And the NT passages that reference it (1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Revelation 21:1-4) relate to the future time when the last trumpet sounds at Christ's return and the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. We will put on bodily immortality at that time.

I have nothing more to say about this. There's no sense arguing over whether part of Isaiah 25:8-9 relates to eternal spiritual life or not. The main thing to me is that we agree that Jesus will return at the last trumpet and will then usher in the new heavens and new earth where we will have eternal, immortal bodily life.

It doesn't surprise me that you see only a bodily resurrection in the prophecies of Old, because you deny eternal security. To understand we possess eternal life through the Spirit of Christ within us the moment we are born again is to understand whosoever has been born again is eternally spiritually alive and secure in Christ forever! For this reason, you must deny the prophesy of Old is NOW being spiritually fulfilled in time and will be complete when the last trumpet sounds and the spiritual body alive will return with Christ to give physical immortal life to our resurrected body of flesh.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It doesn't surprise me that you see only a bodily resurrection in the prophecies of Old, because you deny eternal security.

Whatever. I couldn't care less if that surprises you or not. If you want to debate that topic, there is another forum for that.

To understand we possess eternal life through the Spirit of Christ within us the moment we are born again is to understand whosoever has been born again is eternally spiritually alive and secure in Christ forever! For this reason, you must deny the prophesy of Old is NOW being spiritually fulfilled in time and will be complete when the last trumpet sounds and the spiritual body alive will return with Christ to give physical immortal life to our resurrected body of flesh.

Yawn. The New Testament (1 Cor 15:50-54, Rev 21:1-4) relates Isaiah 25:8-9 to the future day when the last trumpet sounds, Christ returns, the bodily resurrection of the dead occurs, we all are changed to put on bodily immortality and the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. If you want to read more into it than that, then that's your choice, but I don't like to read things into the scriptures that aren't there.

 

[Zao is life]

The prophecy of Isaiah 25:8-9 will be fulfilled when Jesus returns at the sound of the last trumpet, soon after which the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in.

Prophecy:

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it. 9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Good post. Nice to see which Old Testament saying Paul was referencing. It also cannot be ignored without willful blindness.

Second witness to this fact: The Day of Judgment:

============================================​

"God has set A DAY on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead." (Acts 17:31).

============================================​

THE PROPHET DANIEL:

Daniel 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

THE APOSTLE PAUL:

Acts 24:15
"And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

JESUS:

John 5:26-29
"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 25:31-33, 41 & 46
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios zoe]."

THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST TO HIS CHURCHES:

GREAT WHITE THRONE

Revelation 20:11-12, & 15
"I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

SEVENTH TRUMPET

Revelation 11:17-18
"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged,

and the time has come to give to your servants, the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and to those who revere your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Added note:

IMO the reason no one can see the point of view of the other with regard to Amil / Premil is because no one can see that the thousand years and the new heavens and new earth are the commencement of what both Jesus, and the voices John heard when the seventh trumpet sounded,

called the ages of the ages,

nor can they see the significance of the fact that the first three chapters of the Bible took place in paradise and the last three chapters echo the same things that we see in the first three chapters, with a different consequence:

+ an inability or refusal to acknowledge the fact that God is able to destroy the bodies and souls of immortals rebelling against the Word of God with fire coming down from heaven and devouring them.

+ an inability to understand why God will allow what Revelation 20:7-10 describes - after the return of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good post.

Thanks.

Nice to see which Old Testament saying Paul was referencing.

It shows a direct connection between the timing of the verses where it is referenced (1 Corinthians 15:54 and Revelation 21:4), which is not something that is discussed much at all, so that's why I created this thread.

It also cannot be ignored without willful blindness.

Second witness to this fact: The Day of Judgment:

============================================​

"God has set A DAY on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead." (Acts 17:31).

============================================​

THE PROPHET DANIEL:

Daniel 12:2
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

THE APOSTLE PAUL:

Acts 24:15
"And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

JESUS:

John 5:26-29
"For as the Father hath life [zoe] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 25:31-33, 41 & 46
31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [aionios zoe]."

THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST TO HIS CHURCHES:

GREAT WHITE THRONE

Revelation 20:11-12, & 15
"I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

SEVENTH TRUMPET

Revelation 11:17-18
"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged,

and the time has come to give to your servants, the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and to those who revere your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth."

I agree. It's a wonder to me why you are not an Amil when you agree with Amils that those verses all have their fulfillment when Christ returns and not 1,000+ years later as Premils typically believe.

Added note:

IMO the reason no one can see the point of view of the other with regard to Amil / Premil is because no one can see that the thousand years and the new heavens and new earth are the commencement of what both Jesus, and the voices John heard when the seventh trumpet sounded,

called the ages of the ages,

I don't understand even a tiny bit what you are saying here. It's clear to me that when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, that is when eternity is ushered in because at that point "there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." (Rev 21:4).

nor can they see the significance of the fact that the first three chapters of the Bible took place in paradise and the last three chapters echo the same things that we see in the first three chapters, with a different consequence:

+ an inability or refusal to acknowledge the fact that God is able to destroy the bodies and souls of immortals rebelling against the Word of God with fire coming down from heaven and devouring them.

+ an inability to understand why God will allow what Revelation 20:7-10 describes - after the return of Christ.

It's neither an inability to understand nor a refusal to acknowledge something. Your view simply contradicts some scriptures, which I believe you either have an inability to understand or refuse to acknowledge. We just have to agree to disagree since we seem to both have made up our minds about this.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't understand even a tiny bit what you are saying here. It's clear to me that when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, that is when eternity is ushered in

Except that the language that the English is translated from never uses words that mean what we today understand the word "eternity" to mean. It uses the words unto the ages of the ages.

Explore what the first century authors of the New Testament understood by those words.

at that point "there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." (Rev 21:4).

Agreed.

Your view simply contradicts some scriptures.

Brushing it aside with an assertion based on an opinion made as a statement is just bait - so regardless of you saying you'll rather be done, I'm not done yet. I'm taking the bait.

What do the scriptures contradict except your own faulty interpretation of the scriptures and facts below?

1. Those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God (Revelation 15:2).

- The same ones are seen alive [zao] and reigning with Christ for a thousand years in Revelation 20:4-6, where John is told that this is the first resurrection of the body [anastasis].

2. A thousand years that commences following the return of Christ is in line with the fact that the last three chapters of the Bible are a reflection of the first three chapters of the Bible:

First three chapters:

(a) Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (which began with the words "You will NOT surely die" - Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

-- in Adam all mankind failed the test --

(b) Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24).

(c) Death of Adam (the first death) - 930 years later (Genesis 5:5).

IN-BETWEEN THE FIRST THREE CHAPTERS
AND THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS:

--- "I am the Resurrection [anastasis]
and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25) ---​

Last three chapters:

(a) Satan's deception of the nations descended from Adam & Eve.

-- one part of mankind descended from Adam and Eve fail the test --

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages." (Revelation 20:7-10).

Matthew 10:28
"Fear not them which kill the body [soma], but are not able to kill the soul [psuche]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [psuche] and body [soma] in gehennah [G1067 geenna]."

* The New Testament uses the word gehennah every time Jesus talks about the everlasting destruction of body and soul. In Mark 9:43 & 45 Jesus calls it "the fire that shall never be quenched".

- Gehennah and the lake of fire burning with brimstone both represent an everlasting destruction of body and soul.

* Revelation 19:20 (previous chapter) tells us that the beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive [zao] into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. The concept of being damned while alive [zao] is not extra-biblical or alien to scripture.

Your own need to contradict scripture by interpreting part of the last three chapters of scripture as referring to things that occur before they occur stems from your preferred beliefs regarding the timing for the binding of Satan - your beliefs which contradict scripture - and the timing for the commencement of the reigning with Christ of those who had not worshiped the beast - your beliefs which contradict scripture.

Which is why you cannot understand why God will do such a thing - by allowing such a thing - as the testing of created mankind as immortals in paradise. It's all "preposterous and crazy" to you - so it's highly possible given the record (of course) that the same or similar or even worse wording is what you'll accuse me of "being" again.

Your OP is correct - but that's as far as your correctness goes.

 

[Earburner]

The prophecy of Isaiah 25:8-9 will be fulfilled when Jesus returns at the sound of the last trumpet, soon after which the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in.

Prophecy:

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it. 9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Fulfillment:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Isaiah 25:8 is clear that the time when God will swallow up death in victory is the same time when He will wipe away tears from of all faces. Paul references Isaiah 25:8 in relation to the time when the last trumpet sounds, the dead are raised and we're all changed. With death being swallowed up in victory, it makes sense that there can be no more death after that or else it couldn't be said that death has been swallowed up in victory. That's why John relates Isaiah 25:8-9 directly to the time when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. Using scripture to interpret scripture, the time when death will be swallowed up in victory with God wiping the tears from of all faces will occur at the last trumpet and will be when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, at which point "there shall be no more death" (Revelation 21:4).

In other words, with Paul relating the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8 to the time when the last trumpet sounds and John relating it to the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth, we can then conclude that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in just after the last trumpet sounds and not 1,000+ years later as Premillennialists typically believe.

According to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, the resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur when Jesus returns and, according to 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, the resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur when the last trumpet sounds. So, that's how we know that death will be swallowed up in victory when Christ returns since that will occur at the last trumpet when the dead in Christ are resurrected and we're all changed. And, that means that God will wipe away the tears from off all faces and will then dwell with His people at that point in the new heavens and new earth and that there will be no more death after that. If death continues to occur after events related to the last trumpet are completed (this includes what is written about the seventh trumpet, which is the same as the last trumpet), as Premils believe, then how can it be said that death is swallowed up in victory at that point?

The new heavens and new earth being ushered in at the second coming of Christ also lines up with what Peter taught in 2nd Peter 3.

2 Peter 3:3 ...knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.

First, Peter points out how there are scoffers in the last days saying "Where is the promise of His coming"? These scoffers deny the promise of the second coming of Christ. Later, Peter says this about that promise...

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

He points out that the Lord is not slack (slow) in fulfilling the promise of His second coming, as some think.

Then, a little later, he says this about the fulfillment of the promise of His second coming after describing the heavens and earth being dissolved and burned up when Jesus comes as a thief in the night...

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Peter does not say that we, according to the fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming, look for an earthly millennial kingdom. No, he said, according to His promise of coming again, we "look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.". So, just like both 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Revelation 21:1-4, in fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8-9, are referenced in relation to Christ's return and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth, 2 Peter 3:13 also relates the return of Christ directly to the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth rather than the new heavens and new earth being ushered in 1,000+ years after the return of Christ, as most Premils believe.

I agree with most of what you say, but I noticed that you don't use the KJV. What Bible translation do you use?

 

[Jay Ross]

I agree with most of what you say, but I noticed that you don't use the KJV. What Bible translation do you use?

I was explaining to a grandson that I had studied the OT Hebrew texts and had introduced a few corrections which more closely reflected the intent of the original Hebrew text. I offered to give him a copy of my musing on the book of Genesis, but he declined by saying that we have enough translations to satisfy everybody's needs and that I should just find a translation that I agree with and fits my understanding and just use that translation.

The quoted observation above reflects this type of thinking. Chose a translation that best fits your private beliefs and stick to it even if it is in contextual error about God's encouragement for us to worship Him alone.

 

[covenantee]

I was explaining to a grandson that I had studied the OT Hebrew texts and had introduced a few corrections which more closely reflected the intent of the original Hebrew text.

Examples?

 

[Jay Ross]

Examples?

The Greek root word, "kanios" does not have the meaning of "new", but rather the meaning of "freshness" or having "been refreshed."

 

[covenantee]

The Greek root word, "kanios" does not have the meaning of "new", but rather the meaning of "freshness" or having "been refreshed."

What verse(s)?

 

[Earburner]

I was explaining to a grandson that I had studied the OT Hebrew texts and had introduced a few corrections which more closely reflected the intent of the original Hebrew text. I offered to give him a copy of my musing on the book of Genesis, but he declined by saying that we have enough translations to satisfy everybody's needs and that I should just find a translation that I agree with and fits my understanding and just use that translation.

The quoted observation above reflects this type of thinking. Chose a translation that best fits your private beliefs and stick to it even if it is in contextual error about God's encouragement for us to worship Him alone.

My question is based on the reality that there are many Christians studying numerous bible translations (165+/- to choose from) so as to scripturally(?) tailor the words in order to build and confirm their own form of understanding and/or doctrine(s).
To me, that is not good!

I agree. The best way to study the bible, is to select a well known and trusted translation, and make it your main source for study.

 

[Marilyn C]

The prophecy of Isaiah 25:8-9 will be fulfilled when Jesus returns at the sound of the last trumpet, soon after which the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in.

Prophecy:

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it. 9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Fulfillment:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Isaiah 25:8 is clear that the time when God will swallow up death in victory is the same time when He will wipe away tears from of all faces. Paul references Isaiah 25:8 in relation to the time when the last trumpet sounds, the dead are raised and we're all changed. With death being swallowed up in victory, it makes sense that there can be no more death after that or else it couldn't be said that death has been swallowed up in victory. That's why John relates Isaiah 25:8-9 directly to the time when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. Using scripture to interpret scripture, the time when death will be swallowed up in victory with God wiping the tears from of all faces will occur at the last trumpet and will be when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, at which point "there shall be no more death" (Revelation 21:4).

In other words, with Paul relating the fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8 to the time when the last trumpet sounds and John relating it to the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth, we can then conclude that the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in just after the last trumpet sounds and not 1,000+ years later as Premillennialists typically believe.

According to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, the resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur when Jesus returns and, according to 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, the resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur when the last trumpet sounds. So, that's how we know that death will be swallowed up in victory when Christ returns since that will occur at the last trumpet when the dead in Christ are resurrected and we're all changed. And, that means that God will wipe away the tears from off all faces and will then dwell with His people at that point in the new heavens and new earth and that there will be no more death after that. If death continues to occur after events related to the last trumpet are completed (this includes what is written about the seventh trumpet, which is the same as the last trumpet), as Premils believe, then how can it be said that death is swallowed up in victory at that point?

The new heavens and new earth being ushered in at the second coming of Christ also lines up with what Peter taught in 2nd Peter 3.

2 Peter 3:3 ...knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.

First, Peter points out how there are scoffers in the last days saying "Where is the promise of His coming"? These scoffers deny the promise of the second coming of Christ. Later, Peter says this about that promise...

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

He points out that the Lord is not slack (slow) in fulfilling the promise of His second coming, as some think.

Then, a little later, he says this about the fulfillment of the promise of His second coming after describing the heavens and earth being dissolved and burned up when Jesus comes as a thief in the night...

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Peter does not say that we, according to the fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming, look for an earthly millennial kingdom. No, he said, according to His promise of coming again, we "look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.". So, just like both 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and Revelation 21:1-4, in fulfillment of Isaiah 25:8-9, are referenced in relation to Christ's return and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth, 2 Peter 3:13 also relates the return of Christ directly to the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth rather than the new heavens and new earth being ushered in 1,000+ years after the return of Christ, as most Premils believe.

Hi SI,

Now when you read a newspaper do you read it all about YOU? Hope not. The same with God`s word. it is for us to read and learn from, but it is NOT all about US.

Isaiah 25: 8 & 9 is God speaking to His people Israel bringing them comfort and revelation that He, God will finally do away with death and wipe all tears from their eyes. To get a right context we need to read all of what God has revealed to His people Israel. And Rev. 21 & 22 reveal that timing in the NHNE.

Then in 1 Cor. 15: 50 we read what Jesus the Head of His Body is telling them. `WE, yes WE not Israel but we, the Body of Christ formed when the Lord ascended to the Father. Death is swallowed up as WE yes WE, the Body of Christ are changed and be taken to glory.

When WE are taken there will still be Israel and the nations on the earth to be dealt with.

Note important phrase - `the dead IN CHRIST.` That is ONLY those in the Body of Christ. 1 Thess. 4: 14 - 17.

2 Peter 3: 10 describes the Day of the LORD PERIOD OF TIME. The Greek word for DAY is a period of time and a specific day. To know the difference we need to read the CONTEXT. This you are not doing but placing everything in one day. And that does NOT work.

 

[covenantee]

The Greek root word, "kanios" does not have the meaning of "new", but rather the meaning of "freshness" or having "been refreshed."

Correct spelling is "kainos".

2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Every English Bible version translates "kainos" in this verse as "new", not as "fresh".