Maybe I Am Not Understanding the Post Tribulation Rapture. - Can You Help?

[Davy]

Let me clarify for you.

Those in the nation of Israel are the woman. Those around the world are the seed of the woman.

You are contradicting yourself again, showing you don't really understand about the symbolic "woman" of Revelation 12. Those symbols of Rev.12:1 about the sun and moon, and 12 stars are from Genesis 37 per Joseph's dream. The sun and moon represented Jacob and his wife, and the 12 stars represented the 12 tribes of Israel.

Your contradiction is by your not... recognizing that the 10 northern tribes of Israel were separated apart from the Jews of the 3 tribes at Jerusalem-Judea in the days of Solomon. That's why I keep referring to 1 Kings 11 forward which documents when God split old Israel into TWO separate kingdoms.

Southern kingdom = "kingdom of Judah", or "house of Judah", capital city at Jerusalem. Rehoboam, king of Judah, Solomon's son, over it. Made up ONLY of 3 tribes; Judah, Benjamin, and Levi (and a small remnant out of the northern 10 tribes that rejected the calf idols in the north, per 2 Chron.11). These called themselves JEWS.

Northern kingdom = "kingdom of Israel", or "house of Israel", capital city at Samaria in the north. These were made up of 10 tribes that dwelt in the northern holy land, the tribes of Ephraim (largest), tribe of Manasseh, Asher, Naphtali, Dan, Gad, Zebulun, Simeon, Reuben, Issachar. Jeroboam, king of Israel, of the tribe of Ephraim was made their king by God per 1 Kings 11.

Both kingdoms then had war against each other, and were never joined back into one nation. They became TWO NATIONS, OR KINGDOMS.

The 10 tribe "house of Israel" went into captivity to Assyria by the kings of Assyria first, and were removed out of the holy land, never to return. The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the 10 tribes were still scattered beyond the Euphrates river in his day.

God showed through His prophet Hosea that the 10 tribes would become LOST, losing their heritage as the larger part of Israel once He scattered them among the Gentiles. But the Jews of the house of Judah would not... lose their heritage as part of Israel, and it was so, even to this day.

Then later, about 200 years after the ten northern tribes had been taken captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, the Jews of the southern "kingdom of Judah" also began to fall away from God, and God brought Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon upon Jerusalem, and took the Jews captive to Babylon. This captivity did NOT involve the 10 tribes, for the 10 tribes had already been gone out of the land.

Where the majority of the 10 tribes of Israel would migrate to after leaving their Assyrian captivity in the east has been documented by the cuneiform clay Assyrian tablets of the Royal Assyrian Correspondence of the Assyrian Empire, translated by Leroy Waterman, professor at the University of Michigan in the 1930's. Names for what the Assyrians called the ten tribes of Israel are translated there, and linked to the Cimmerian and Scythian tribes that migrated westward into Asia Minor and Europe. And these would become the founders of the early Christian Church in the West.

This is how... the symbolic "woman" of Revelation 12 relates to the Christian Church also. It was simply a matter of God scattering the 10 northern tribes of Israel, and eventually making a New Covenant with them in new lands they were scattered to. And of course the unbelieving Pharisee type Jews do not like this history, because they want the world to think that they, the Jews of the smaller nation of Israel of the "house of Judah" represents the only true Israel. Not so. God preserved the 10 lost tribes of Israel in secret; the majority of the world, including deceived Jews, just don't realize it, yet. And that is the purpose of the two sticks prophecy God gave in Ezekiel 37 about the joining back together of the two 'houses' in final, when Jesus returns.

 

[Davy]

I already know this.

What you don't seem to know is that those that live in the nation of Israel is the woman of Revelation 12.

What you say... you know, and what you actually say about the symbolic "woman" of Rev.12, does not match up.

I'm not going to post all the Genesis 37 prophecy that DEFINES the symbolic "woman" in the days of Joseph and his brethren of the 12 tribes. Do your own homework on that.

BOTH houses, the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", represent ALL 12 tribes scattered abroad also. I don't know why you have problems admitting that.

The DIFFERENCE IS, the "house of Judah" is represented by those who call themselves by the title of JEW, which comes from the tribe of Judah. And the "house of Israel" represents the 10 LOST tribes of Israel who do NOT call themselves Jews.

What you, along with the majority, still fail to realize, is that God scattered the 10 tribes of the seed of Israel, but hid them among the Gentiles, with only a remnant that actually knew their ancient origins. In the Scottish Declaration of Independence (13th century), the early Scotts mention their ancient heritage from Israel to those new lands.

 

[The Light]

TL
I did state that Revelation should not be used for doctrinal purposes.
Some do practice this.

You've quoted Revelation above .....

Here it is:

Could you just take the time to explain EXACTLY where in those verses you see two raptures......

Thanks.


Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

TL
I did state that Revelation should not be used for doctrinal purposes.
Some do practice this.

You've quoted Revelation above .....

Here it is:

Could you just take the time to explain EXACTLY where in those verses you see two raptures......

Thanks.


Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Hi GG,

I do not see two raptures in the passages of Revelation14.

There is a pretribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) which happens at the trump of God or voice of God, when the Lord himself comes for his bride. Then there is a prewrath rapture which is the second harvest which happens at the 6th seal. That is what is seen in Revelation 14. The Lord sends His angels to gather the elect at the last trump which is blown on the feast of Trumpets, the second harvest feast.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GG,

I do not see two raptures in the passages of Revelation14.

There is a pretribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) which happens at the trump of God or voice of God, when the Lord himself comes for his bride. Then there is a prewrath rapture which is the second harvest which happens at the 6th seal. That is what is seen in Revelation 14. The Lord sends His angels to gather the elect at the last trump which is blown on the feast of Trumpets, the second harvest feast.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 CEB
14 Since we believe that Jesus died and rose, so we also believe that God will bring with him those who have died in Jesus.
15 What we are saying is a message from the Lord: we who are alive and still around at the Lord's coming definitely won't go ahead of those who have died.
16 This is because the Lord himself will come down from heaven with the signal of a shout by the head angel and a blast on God's trumpet. First, those who are dead in Christ will rise.
17 Then, we who are living and still around will be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet with the Lord in the air. That way we will always be with the Lord.


How is the above a pretribulation rapture?
It's addressing what happens at the end of the world.
At the end of the world,,,the world will have gone through a great tribulation.

Those who are alive at HIS COMING will not go before those who are already dead. Verse 15

Jesus will come down from heaven and those who are dead will be resurrected first. Verse 16

Then, those that are alive, will be taken up with the others who were already dead, to meet with Jesus.


Where is the second coming of Jesus?
I can't find it.

 

[amigo de christo]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 CEB
14 Since we believe that Jesus died and rose, so we also believe that God will bring with him those who have died in Jesus.
15 What we are saying is a message from the Lord: we who are alive and still around at the Lord's coming definitely won't go ahead of those who have died.
16 This is because the Lord himself will come down from heaven with the signal of a shout by the head angel and a blast on God's trumpet. First, those who are dead in Christ will rise.
17 Then, we who are living and still around will be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet with the Lord in the air. That way we will always be with the Lord.


How is the above a pretribulation rapture?
It's addressing what happens at the end of the world.
At the end of the world,,,the world will have gone through a great tribulation.

Those who are alive at HIS COMING will not go before those who are already dead. Verse 15

Jesus will come down from heaven and those who are dead will be resurrected first. Verse 16

Then, those that are alive, will be taken up with the others who were already dead, to meet with Jesus.


Where is the second coming of Jesus?
I can't find it.

and dont forget how clearly this is made in his second letter
in the first chapter . READ that again and see real clearly
HOW IT IS A ONE TIME EVENT .
WHEN JESUS HIMSELF cometh for his own and TO LAY DOWN wrath against the ungodly

 

[Ronald D Milam]

We can find this second rapture which is post trib/pre wrath harvest in Revelation......here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

That is just you/others not understanding the nature of the book of Revelation. The 1260 day Wrath of God/DOTL/Troubles run through Rev. 8, 9 and 16 ONLY, everything else are merely Parenthetical Citation Chapters. Its really easy when you place the 1260 day timeframe in each chapter.

Rev. 8, 9 and 16 = 1260 days

Rev. 10 speaks of the 7 Thunders (7 Trumps) and the Trumps run through Rev. 8, 9 and 16 because the 7 Vials are the 7th Trump or emit from it. The 1st, 2nd & 3rd Woe are the 5th, 6th & 7th Trumps.

Rev. 11 coves the 1260 day Ministry of the Two-witnesses

Rev. 12 sees the Women/Israel being protected by God for 1260 days.

Rev. 13 sees the Beast ruling for 1260 days.

Rev. 17 sees the Beast and his 10 Kings who rule with him ONE HOUR (42 months) killing off the Harlot or All False Religion of all time in Rev. 17, that 42 months = 1260 days.

Rev. 18 is Babylon (the WHOLE WORLD under Satan's Dark Kingdom of Confusion) being Judged for ONE HOUR & ONE DAY. Which = 1260 days, as I show above.

Rev. 14 and 19 both cover all 7 years. In Rev. 19 we see the church before she marries the Lamb to receive her White Linen (robes & new glorious bodies) and returning to Armageddon with Jesus.

Revelation 14's meaning

Rev. 14 is THE HARVEST CHAPTER......We see the 144,000 (a code for all Israel or 5 million Israelis because Zech. 13:8-9 says 1/3 will repent) have repented and are waiting on the 2nd Advent (Kingdom Age) which lasts 1000 years. We see in verses 17-20 the Wicked Grapes/Tares will be judged. BUT ALAS, in vs. 14 we see a CINEMATIC FLASHBACK to the Pre 70th week rapture, Jesus himself gathers us from UPON a cloud, so he never comes to earth but calls us up to him. Until one can see the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation he has no chance of understanding it in full.

 

[GodsGrace]

and dont forget how clearly this is made in his second letter
in the first chapter . READ that again and see real clearly
HOW IT IS A ONE TIME EVENT .
WHEN JESUS HIMSELF cometh for his own and TO LAY DOWN wrath against the ungodly

Right.
Jesus is speaking about the Day of the Lord....
not the day we worship Him....
but the day when He returns....one time.

2 Thessalonians 1:10
10 This will happen when he comes on that day to receive honor from his holy people and to be admired by everyone who has believed—and our testimony to you was believed.

 

[amigo de christo]

Right.
Jesus is speaking about the Day of the Lord....
not the day we worship Him....
but the day when He returns....one time.

2 Thessalonians 1:10
10 This will happen when he comes on that day to receive honor from his holy people and to be admired by everyone who has believed—and our testimony to you was believed.

Remember the devil is a liar
but he cometh to decieve as though he does what is best for you and humanity .
Ecumenical interfaith is the tool by which he will merge ALL false decieved religoins
with all the decieved within even christendom . Its love is of a harlot and its drink is naught
but rebellion to GOD and HIS CHRIST . never sip of it . dont even sniff at her cup .
A harlot knows how to sell love , but her love is d eadly indeed .

 

[The Light]

That is just you/others not understanding the nature of the book of Revelation. The 1260 day Wrath of God/DOTL/Troubles run through Rev. 8, 9 and 16 ONLY, everything else are merely Parenthetical Citation Chapters. Its really easy when you place the 1260 day timeframe in each chapter.

Rev. 8, 9 and 16 = 1260 days

Revelation 8 9, 10, 11, 16

Is ONE YEAR LONG to Armageddon. The Day of the Lord is one day long AT Armageddon.

Rev. 10 speaks of the 7 Thunders (7 Trumps) and the Trumps run through Rev. 8, 9 and 16 because the 7 Vials are the 7th Trump or emit from it. The 1st, 2nd & 3rd Woe are the 5th, 6th & 7th Trumps.

Totally and completely incorrect. The 7 trumpets and 7 vials are Gods wrath. They happen in the exact same timeframe. Paul has a vision. He sees 7 trumpets. Paul has another vision. He sees 7 vials. The first trumpet and first vial happen in the same time frame. The vision of the vial is more destructive. The order is 1st trumpet, 1st vial, 2nd trumpet, 2nd vial etc. etc.

Rev. 11 coves the 1260 day Ministry of the Two-witnesses

Not correct. The two witnesses begin their ministry before the great tribulation. From the beginning of their ministry, through the great tribulation, through the ONE YEAR wrath of God is 1260 days.

Rev. 12 sees the Women/Israel being protected by God for 1260 days.

ok

Rev. 13 sees the Beast ruling for 1260 days.

ok

Rev. 17 sees the Beast and his 10 Kings who rule with him ONE HOUR (42 months) killing off the Harlot or All False Religion of all time in Rev. 17, that 42 months = 1260 days.

ok

Rev. 18 is Babylon (the WHOLE WORLD under Satan's Dark Kingdom of Confusion) being Judged for ONE HOUR & ONE DAY. Which = 1260 days, as I show above.

Not correct. Babylon is destroyed before the great tribulation.

Rev. 14 and 19 both cover all 7 years. In Rev. 19 we see the church before she marries the Lamb to receive her White Linen (robes & new glorious bodies) and returning to Armageddon with Jesus.

Not a chance in China.

Revelation 14's meaning

Rev. 14 is THE HARVEST CHAPTER......We see the 144,000 (a code for all Israel or 5 million Israelis because Zech. 13:8-9 says 1/3 will repent) have repented and are waiting on the 2nd Advent (Kingdom Age) which lasts 1000 years. We see in verses 17-20 the Wicked Grapes/Tares will be judged. BUT ALAS, in vs. 14 we see a CINEMATIC FLASHBACK to the Pre 70th week rapture, Jesus himself gathers us from UPON a cloud, so he never comes to earth but calls us up to him. Until one can see the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation he has no chance of understanding it in full.

No sir.

Stop with the secret code. Revelation 14 is about the 144,000 first fruits which is exactly 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe of the seed of the woman Israel. This is of the 12 tribes across the earth. The harvest in Revelation 14 is the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the woman Israel. Those of the nation of Israel that flee remain on the earth in a place of protection through the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

How is the above a pretribulation rapture?
It's addressing what happens at the end of the world.

No. It's addressing the Lord himself coming for His bride, at the trump of God or voice of God.

Here is the secret rapture in the Old Testament. The Lord comes first in the spring for the dead in Christ. The Lord returns for the alive that remain at the end of summer.

Song of Solomon
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

At the end of the world,,,the world will have gone through a great tribulation.

The Church will be raptured before the great tribulation. See Rev 3,4,5.

Those who are alive at HIS COMING will not go before those who are already dead. Verse 15

The dead in Christ rise first, the alive remain. The barley harvest.
The Lord returns with the dead in Christ for the alive that remain. The wheat harvest.

Where is the second coming of Jesus?
I can't find it.

The second coming of Jesus is in Matthew 24:29-31, (Luke 21:27, Mark 13:24-27) and is also in Revelation 14:14-19.

All eyes see the coming of the Lord. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and remain in heaven during the 7th seal ONE YEAR wrath of God.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Revelation 8 9, 10, 11, 16

Is ONE YEAR LONG to Armageddon. The Day of the Lord is one day long AT Armageddon.

You are of course in error, been a Christian 40 plus years, when I see a brother swayed from a former belief, by men, and I could see it coming because the only thing you had correct was the pre trib., so it was easy for them to shift you from a position. But when I see that, I understand that a man is letting other men sway him at your age the holy spirit should have laid a solid foundation of factoids down. Fundamental moorings should be established.

As I stated, the 1260 days of God's Wrath only cover chapters 8, 9 and 16. The first 4 Trumps is an asteroid impact, the 3 Woes are seen in Rev. 9 and 16. The 7 vials are the 3rd woe, its emitted from the 7th Trump.

Totally and completely incorrect. The 7 trumpets and 7 vials are Gods wrath. They happen in the exact same timeframe. Paul has a vision. He sees 7 trumpets. Paul has another vision. He sees 7 vials. The first trumpet and first vial happen in the same time frame. The vision of the vial is more destructive. The order is 1st trumpet, 1st vial, 2nd trumpet, 2nd vial etc. etc.

The 7 Thunders are the 7 Trumps, but you did not get it how John did in plain English (Greek or Aramaic) but instead in coded/jumbled up, on purpose, hard to understand prose & prophesy. There are but 7 Judgments, the 7 vials ARE the 7th Trumps doings, and its also the 3rd woe. Why can't you grasp the 7th Trump is the 7 vials? and the 3rd woe, they come forth from the 7th Trump.

Not correct. The two witnesses begin their ministry before the great tribulation. From the beginning of their ministry, through the great tribulation, through the ONE YEAR wrath of God is 1260 days.

By only 75 days at the 1335 on day 1185, or 1335 days before Jesus shows up, however they die at the end of the 2nd woe, before the 3rd woe or 7th Trump sounds. They do not preach for the whole first half of the tribulation, their 1260 days is just staggered by 75 days from the Beasts reign.

Not correct. Babylon is destroyed before the great tribulation.

Babylon is THE WHOLE WORLD man. Y

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Stop with the secret code. Revelation 14 is about the 144,000 first fruits which is exactly 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe of the seed of the woman Israel. This is of the 12 tribes across the earth. The harvest in Revelation 14 is the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the woman Israel. Those of the nation of Israel that flee remain on the earth in a place of protection through the ONE YEAR wrath of God.

I am correct, you aren't. As I have stated before the 10 Virgin Females stands for the EMTIRE COMPLETE CHURCH, and its more than 10 and bot all female, nor all virgins. Yet you can't grasp the 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 means ALL Israel who repents, both male and female, and all are seen by God as virgins in Christ, BUT ALAS............You can understand the 10 virgins CODE.

That is on you sir. 12 = fulness and 10 completeness. The 1/3 repenting = 5 million as there are 15 million Jews alive, it will never be 144,000. How do you discuss prophesy brother and can not grasp the way God's lingo in prophesy is given unto us?

 

[The Light]

You are contradicting yourself again, showing you don't really understand about the symbolic "woman" of Revelation 12. Those symbols of Rev.12:1 about the sun and moon, and 12 stars are from Genesis 37 per Joseph's dream. The sun and moon represented Jacob and his wife, and the 12 stars represented the 12 tribes of Israel.

No contradiction.

And you act like I don't know Rev 12 and Jacob etc.

How do you know what I know? You are not educating me in the least.

Your contradiction is by your not... recognizing that the 10 northern tribes of Israel were separated apart from the Jews of the 3 tribes at Jerusalem-Judea in the days of Solomon. That's why I keep referring to 1 Kings 11 forward which documents when God split old Israel into TWO separate kingdoms.

Again. This has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with what we are talking about, and I already know all this. The point is that all 12 tribes have spread across the world and not just the 10 northern tribes.

James 1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Some of the 12 tribes return.............

Ezekiel 37
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Southern kingdom = "kingdom of Judah", or "house of Judah", capital city at Jerusalem. Rehoboam, king of Judah, Solomon's son, over it. Made up ONLY of 3 tribes; Judah, Benjamin, and Levi (and a small remnant out of the northern 10 tribes that rejected the calf idols in the north, per 2 Chron.11). These called themselves JEWS.

Northern kingdom = "kingdom of Israel", or "house of Israel", capital city at Samaria in the north. These were made up of 10 tribes that dwelt in the northern holy land, the tribes of Ephraim (largest), tribe of Manasseh, Asher, Naphtali, Dan, Gad, Zebulun, Simeon, Reuben, Issachar. Jeroboam, king of Israel, of the tribe of Ephraim was made their king by God per 1 Kings 11.

Both kingdoms then had war against each other, and were never joined back into one nation. They became TWO NATIONS, OR KINGDOMS.

And this has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion of the last days that is at hand.

The 10 tribe "house of Israel" went into captivity to Assyria by the kings of Assyria first, and were removed out of the holy land, never to return. The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the 10 tribes were still scattered beyond the Euphrates river in his day.

God showed through His prophet Hosea that the 10 tribes would become LOST, losing their heritage as the larger part of Israel once He scattered them among the Gentiles. But the Jews of the house of Judah would not... lose their heritage as part of Israel, and it was so, even to this day.

Then later, about 200 years after the ten northern tribes had been taken captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, the Jews of the southern "kingdom of Judah" also began to fall away from God, and God brought Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon upon Jerusalem, and took the Jews captive to Babylon. This captivity did NOT involve the 10 tribes, for the 10 tribes had already been gone out of the land.

Where the majority of the 10 tribes of Israel would migrate to after leaving their Assyrian captivity in the east has been documented by the cuneiform clay Assyrian tablets of the Royal Assyrian Correspondence of the Assyrian Empire, translated by Leroy Waterman, professor at the University of Michigan in the 1930's. Names for what the Assyrians called the ten tribes of Israel are translated there, and linked to the Cimmerian and Scythian tribes that migrated westward into Asia Minor and Europe. And these would become the founders of the early Christian Church in the West.

I could show you things about the last days of the house of Judah and the house of Israel...........but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

This is how... the symbolic "woman" of Revelation 12 relates to the Christian Church also.

The woman has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian Church. The woman is Israel. Period. The seed of the woman is the 12 tribes across the earth. Period. This has absolutely nothing to do with the ten northern tribes of the house Israel or the tribes of the house of Judah.

 

[The Light]

What you say... you know, and what you actually say about the symbolic "woman" of Rev.12, does not match up.

The woman is Israel. Period. The woman flees to a place of protection. Not all of Israel flee. Those that don't are killed.

I'm not going to post all the Genesis 37 prophecy that DEFINES the symbolic "woman" in the days of Joseph and his brethren of the 12 tribes. Do your own homework on that.

Homework was done year ago.

BOTH houses, the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", represent ALL 12 tribes scattered abroad also. I don't know why you have problems admitting that.

Exactly what I am explaining to you. So no need to think you are providing any education about the house of Judah or the house of Israel. It is a moot point.

The DIFFERENCE IS, the "house of Judah" is represented by those who call themselves by the title of JEW, which comes from the tribe of Judah. And the "house of Israel" represents the 10 LOST tribes of Israel who do NOT call themselves Jews.

What you, along with the majority, still fail to realize, is that God scattered the 10 tribes of the seed of Israel, but hid them among the Gentiles, with only a remnant that actually knew their ancient origins. In the Scottish Declaration of Independence (13th century), the early Scotts mention their ancient heritage from Israel to those new lands.

All of the 12 tribes are scattered across the earth and not just the house of Israel.

James 1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Your whole discussion is almost meaningless.

 

[GodsGrace]

Remember the devil is a liar
but he cometh to decieve as though he does what is best for you and humanity .
Ecumenical interfaith is the tool by which he will merge ALL false decieved religoins
with all the decieved within even christendom . Its love is of a harlot and its drink is naught
but rebellion to GOD and HIS CHRIST . never sip of it . dont even sniff at her cup .
A harlot knows how to sell love , but her love is d eadly indeed .

I just read that the Pope, Pope Leo, wants complete union with the Orthodox church.
Reminded me of your posts.

 

[amigo de christo]

I just read that the Pope, Pope Leo, wants complete union with the Orthodox church.
Reminded me of your posts.

Oh they want a complete UNION with more than that .
HAve you seen their interreligious dialogue .
THEY want and desire a complete UNION OF ALL RELIG OINS .
This i have been warning against for years n ow . And its only get eting worse .
And beleive me when i say
ITS NOW ALL OVER the protesetant realm
via ecumeincal interfaith . THEY FLEECING US ALL . they have been .
This was never ab out what they cliamed it was .
IT was all about a one wo rld love religoin wherein all would join
with the mindset that we all serving teh same GOD and that this GOD is love .
AND YET ITS NOT GOD and NOT HIS LOVE . we are being t ricked .
AND THEY KNOW how to plant this li ttle by little till the whole be leavend .
THEY been doing it for years . Its time for the sheep to make our last stand
and contend for the one true faith . pulling anyone we can OUT of that ecumenical fire .
That cliams love , that cliams unity , that cliams christ , but knows IT NOT .
nor Do they know CHRIST . Stay in the bible , stay in prayer
and test all who do speak . and watch out
cause they do say love and God is love A LOT . but they do not know HIM or HIS LOVE .

 

[The Light]

You are of course in error, been a Christian 40 plus years, when I see a brother swayed from a former belief, by men, and I could see it coming

What men swayed me into the truth that the wrath of God is ONE YEAR. Please name some men who teach that the wrath of God is ONE YEAR.

But when I see that, I understand that a man is letting other men sway him at your age the holy spirit should have laid a solid foundation of factoids down. Fundamental moorings should be established.

This is a crock brother. What men teach that the wrath of God is ONE YEAR? I challenge you to name some that teach this scriptural FACT.

As I stated, the 1260 days of God's Wrath only cover chapters 8, 9 and 16. The first 4 Trumps is an asteroid impact, the 3 Woes are seen in Rev. 9 and 16.

The Word of says the wrath of God is ONE YEAR. You are all twisted up because you do not understand that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal and then the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins which is the 7th seal.

The 7 vials are the 3rd woe, its emitted from the 7th Trump.

The Word of God says that when the 7th trumpet sounds the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means Armageddon is already over when the 7th trumpet sounds, so your conclusion is incorrect that the 7 vials are emitted from the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And of course we have this.......

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The mystery of God is FINISHED when the 7th trumpet begins to sound. That means the wrath of God over. Armageddon is already over when the 7th trumpet sounds. So your statement about the vials is incorrect.............not my opinion............it's scripture.

The 7 Thunders are the 7 Trumps, but you did not get it how John did in plain English (Greek or Aramaic) but instead in coded/jumbled up, on purpose, hard to understand prose & prophesy.

Stop with the secret code that only you understand. Nothing was written because John was told not to write them. So there is no code.

Revelation 10
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Why can't you grasp the 7th Trump is the 7 vials? and the 3rd woe, they come forth from the 7th Trump.

Because it is incorrect. Look above in previous comments. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord when the 7th trumpet sounds. There is no more wrath. Armageddon is over, so the vials are already completed.

John has two visions of the same timeframe (the wrath of God). It would be like you walking the TV and seeing one drive by a team in a football game. You see the ball handed off over and over and the team eventually scores a touchdown. You turn off the TV, leave the room, and get a bowl of Chili. I enter the room turn on the TV and see one play, an 80 yard touchdown pass. You write down what you see, and I write down what I see. But it's the same game.

Babylon is THE WHOLE WORLD man. Y

Revelation 14
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

The world suffers the wrath of God because they follow Babylon, but Babylon is not the whole world.

Use scripture.

 

[Davidpt]

Totally and completely incorrect. The 7 trumpets and 7 vials are Gods wrath. They happen in the exact same timeframe. Paul has a vision. He sees 7 trumpets. Paul has another vision. He sees 7 vials. The first trumpet and first vial happen in the same time frame. The vision of the vial is more destructive. The order is 1st trumpet, 1st vial, 2nd trumpet, 2nd vial etc. etc.

Prove what you allege, from the texts themselves.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Where is your proof that before the first trumpet sounds, they already have the mark of the beast and are already worshiping it's image?

Obviously, if you are correct, this means they already have it's mark and already worshiping it's image before the first trumpet sounds. Since it is ludicrous that the first vile would be being poured out on someone not yet doing those things. Apparently, you would then have us believe that the 42 month reign of the beast precedes trumpet 1 rather than is not fulfilled until the time of the 6th trumpet at least.

As if the events pertaining to the 6th trumpet can precede the events pertaining to the first trumpet.

In my view, in Matthew 24, the 42 month reign of the beast is meaning during verses 15-26. And when verse 29 is fulfilled, verses 15-26 are now in the past at this point, and that it has then shifted into the wrath of God, the DOTL, the time of the last 7 viles during the 7th trumpet, and not the time of the 6 trumpets preceding the 7th trumpet.

 

[Davy]

No contradiction.

And you act like I don't know Rev 12 and Jacob etc.

How do you know what I know? You are not educating me in the least.

It's because you either 'do not know', or you 'REFUSE to recognize', that Christ's Church involves that same symbolic "woman" of Revelation 12. And at this point, you appear to be of the latter, that you REJECT the Church's involvement in any of this prophecy about the symbolic "woman".

And I think I know why you REJECT the Church's involvement with that "woman" of Revelation 12. It's because you heed men's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory, because it seems like that is what you believe about our Lord Jesus' future coming. Yet that is a doctrine of men, but it can make one who follows it deny that symbolic "woman" includes Christ's Church also, because that doctrine of men wrongly teaches that the Church will be raptured prior to that 1260 days period mentioned in the Rev.12:14.

 

[Davy]

The woman is Israel. Period. The woman flees to a place of protection. Not all of Israel flee. Those that don't are killed.

Nope. I'm done talking with you about this, since you reject that symbolic "woman" is about Christ's Church also going through the coming "great tribulation", the 1260 days shown in Rev.12:14. That is why the last verse says the "dragon" and "serpent" (both names for Satan) go after those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. The orthodox unbelieving Jews do NOT have that Testimony; only those of Christ's Church do.