My personal eclectic view

[covenantee]

He identified it as wrath, also.

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Do you not consider the great tribulation that happened in 70 AD to have been a result of God's wrath or am I misunderstanding you?

Thanks bro; I missed that. I was going by Matthew 24, which specifies tribulation.

Yes, 70 AD was tribulation resulting from God's wrath.

 

[covenantee]

The tribulation Jesus talks about on the saints in Matthew 24 is the same as Revelation.

They are a part of the great multitude from every tribe toung and nation

"Great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 is clearly associated with 70 AD, as it states "then", referring to the time associated with the warnings in the preceding verses, which were recognized and heeded by the Judaean Christians in their flight preceding the destruction of Jerusalem.

That was local tribulation.

Revelation is global tribulation.

 

[Davidpt]

The tribulation Jesus talks about on the saints in Matthew 24 is the same as Revelation.

They are a part of the great multitude from every tribe toung and nation

Either I am confused or you have changed some of your views in regards to the Discourse. I seem to recall that you applied everything in the Discourse to the first century leading up to 70 AD. Yet you are now saying great tribulation in Matthew 24 equals great tribulation in Revelation 7.

Except great tribulation meant in Revelation 7 has no connection with 70 AD, though.

 

[Rockerduck]

The time of "Jacob's trouble" belonged to the Jewish people. This is the Great Tribulation that happened in 70ad. Nowhere else in the world is Jacob's trouble defined. Jeremiah 30:7 -Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

 

[Davidpt]

The time of "Jacob's trouble" belonged to the Jewish people. This is the Great Tribulation that happened in 70ad. Nowhere else in the world is Jacob's trouble defined. Jeremiah 30:7 -Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jeremiah 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.


Now convincingly explain how they remained in possession of the land He gave to their fathers once 70 AD arrived?

 

[Marty fox]

"Great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 is clearly associated with 70 AD, as it states "then", referring to the time associated with the warnings in the preceding verses, which were recognized and heeded by the Judaean Christians in their flight preceding the destruction of Jerusalem.

That was local tribulation.

Revelation is global tribulation.

Yes of course I agree, but they are also a part of the ones in Revelation from every tribe toung and nation. The ones in revelation are from all over the world since the first advent

The key words are every tribe toung and nation, Israel is one of the every tribe toung and nation Israel in a part of the globe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks bro; I missed that. I was going by Matthew 24, which specifies tribulation.

Yes, 70 AD was tribulation resulting from God's wrath.

Yeah, it says "great distress" instead of "great tribulation" in Luke 21, but it's the same thing.

 

[Marty fox]

Either I am confused or you have changed some of your views in regards to the Discourse. I seem to recall that you applied everything in the Discourse to the first century leading up to 70 AD. Yet you are now saying great tribulation in Matthew 24 equals great tribulation in Revelation 7.

Except great tribulation meant in Revelation 7 has no connection with 70 AD, though.

No I haven't changed my view at all and yes it does connect.

I didn't say equals the great tribulation in Revelation 7, but the saints killed in Matthew 24 are part of the ones in Revelation from every tribe tong and nation. The key words are every tribe tong and nation, Israel is one of every tribe tong and nation Israel in a part of the globe.

 

[Rockerduck]

Jeremiah 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.


Now convincingly explain how they remained in possession of the land He gave to their fathers once 70 AD arrived?

The Jewish people returned from Babylon and after Jesus arrived, He removed it from them. Matthew 21:43

 

[covenantee]

Yes of course I agree, but they are also a part of the ones in Revelation from every tribe toung and nation. The ones in revelation are from all over the world since the first advent

The key words are every tribe toung and nation, Israel is one of the every tribe toung and nation Israel in a part of the globe.

If you're meaning that the ones in Revelation will include the Judaean Christians, that is certainly true.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I don't worry about demons of Satan, because I am born again and keep myself from evil by obeying God's Word. 1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

If you do not think Satan can still deceive Christians you would be mistaken. Lets take any Prophetic Lingo, if you have 100s of interpretations then someone is hearing WRONG FACTS and it is always Satan who twists the scripture. In Luke 4 he twisted scriptures and Jesus rebuked him with scriptures. He told Adam & Eve, you will not surely die etc. etc.

Take all of Christendom, either all of the Pre Rapture Trib. people are deceive or all the Post/Mid trib. people are deceived, who is deceiving them? Satan of course. Satan and his demons whisper lies to us every day, don't kid yourself that there isn't a perpetual battle going on.

 

[covenantee]

Yet, the following proves it is.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

How does the NT define elect? Unbelieving Jews? No. It is meaning the following, and no way in a million years is the following meaning unbelieving Jews.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Therefore, the fact the elect meant in verse 22 is obviously not meaning unbelieving Jews, and the fact that Christians escaped to safety before Jerusalem was attacked and destroyed, it is then absurd that 70 AD was cut short for the elect's sake, when the elect were never in any danger at the time. Especially in regards to this--there should no flesh be saved.

Not to mention, if verse 21 is meaning something local not global, it is equally absurd that something local can be greater than something global. That not even something global can equal nor surpass it. Totally backwards, thus absurd. Jesus made it crystal clear in verse 21 that the great tribulation meant has no equal nor can be surpassed by anything in the past nor in the future. What part of--no, nor ever shall be--are some not comprehending?

We then end up with interpreters placing their doctrinal bias' above plain ole' common sense. The fact common sense alone says that something local can't be greater than something global. And clearly, in regards to great tribulation meant in Revelation 7, that is involving global not local only.

I know, I know. I get it. You and those that agree with you are right, not the Bible nor common sense.

Matthew 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

When were "then" and "those days" in these verses?

 

[covenantee]

Too bad. You should have stuck to the dispensational hermeneutic. Having the 70th week fulfilled in Jesus day is completely inconsistent with Daniel.

The Roman conquest of jerusalem is also inconsistent with Matt. 24, Dan.9 and Revelation and thesselonians

The Luke portion of the Olivet discourse focused on the 70AD fall of Jerusalem. MAtt.24 was futuristic.

A post trib rapure is inconsistent with Scripture. God delivers His people before great judgments (the flood) the siege of Jerusalem)It also contradicts Pauls promise in thesselonians.

Paul also described the abomination of desolation. It is singular and male and must stand in teh holy place (holy of holies) The Roman armies did not do that.

Modernist revisionist Scofield dispensational futurized fantasy and fallacy.

 

[Marty fox]

If you're meaning that the ones in Revelation will include the Judaean Christians, that is certainly true.

Yes that is what I was saying

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Hello Randy old friend, it looks like you have altered a few of your views which is good but the bible does state that "the great tribulation" is on the church not ethnic Israel.

Well, we know that 2/3 of Israel refuse to repent and will thus die (Zech. 13:8-9). God's wrath will be against all men/women/humans who refuse to repent. In the Americas or in the New World, it will be by fire where 1/3 of the trees burn. In the Old World it will come via the plagues starting with the 1st Woe. So, the 2/3 Israelis who die, will do so via God's wrath. Now here is where it gets very interesting, people will say, well, they die at the Anti-Christs hands. But Isaiah 10:5 calls the Assyrian the rod of His anger.

Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

So, Isaiah states this end time Anti-Christ, the Assyrian is a rod of God's anger, and the staff in their hand delivers His indignation. So, the AC is a part of God's Wrath.

Revelation 7

9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. 10 And they were shouting with a great roar,

“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
and from the Lamb!”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God. 12 They sang,

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom
and thanksgiving and honor
and power and strength belong to our God
forever and ever! Amen.”
13 Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, “Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in[a] the great tribulation.[b] They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

I believe that a lot of Christians confuse the great tribulation with the wrath of God

The great tribulation is on the saint who are protected by the wrath of God by Gods seal

The wrath of God is on the unsaved including unbelieving ethic Israel.

Revelation 7
3 “Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”

Revelation 9
4 They were told not to harm the grass or plants or trees, but only the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads

Let me take this in order.

Rev. 7:9-17 is not what people think. Remember, after the weeding call the DOORS ARE SHUT UP. So, after the pre trib, rapture no one else is getting in. But....but....but it says these came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and as I read you say elsewhere, there can be many great tribulations but only one that is called the Greatest Ever Tribulation. Even in Rev. 7:9-17, when it says these came out of Great Tribulation, it never says they came from the Greatest Ever Trib. nor could they, no one can be raptured during the 70th week. In Rev. 20:4 we see those who died during the 70th week are raised and judged at the very end.

Those in Rev. 7:9-17 are Church Age Saints who came out of great tribulation, in John 16:33 Jesus told us that we will always have tribulation on this earth. The Church has been martyred for 2000 years, from Rome to Islam and all things in between. That is indeed great tribulation, just not the greatest ever.

In Rev. 7:3 that is God making sure the 144,000 (a CODE for 5 million or so Jews who repent as in 1/3) or ALL Israel who repents gets PROTECTED before God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8, in Rev. 6 we merely get a FORETELLING of what's soon to come in Rev. 8s Trumpet Judgments, the 7 are the full Divinely Complete Wrath of God, this is why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8, AFTER the Jews flee Judea in Rev. 7. Thus HURT NOT the Earth, Sea nor Trees refers to the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments being held up until the the 1/3 who repent an flee into the Petra./Bozrah region.

Rev. 9 is the Two Woes. The 200 Million are Angels, not China men.

 

[Marty fox]

Well, we know that 2/3 of Israel refuse to repent and will thus die (Zech. 13:8-9). God's wrath will be against all men/women/humans who refuse to repent. In the Americas or in the New World, it will be by fire where 1/3 of the trees burn. In the Old World it will come via the plagues starting with the 1st Woe. So, the 2/3 Israelis who die, will do so via God's wrath. Now here is where it gets very interesting, people will say, well, they die at the Anti-Christs hands. But Isaiah 10:5 calls the Assyrian is the rod of his anger.

Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

So, Isaiah states this end time Anti-Christ, the Assyrian is a rod of God's anger, and the staff in their hand delivers His indignation. So, the AC is a part of God's Wrath.


Let me take this in order.

Rev. 7:9-17 is not what people think. Remember, after the weeding call the DOORS ARE SHUT UP. So, after the pre trib, rapture no one else is getting in. But....but....but it says these came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and as I read you say elsewhere, there can be many great tribulations but only one that is called the Greatest Ever Tribulation. Even in Rev. 7:9-17, when it says these came out of Great Tribulation, it never says they came from the Greatest Ever Trib. nor could they, no one can be raptured during the 70th week. In Rev. 20:4 we see those who died during the 70th week are raised and judged at the very end.

Those in Rev. 7:9-17 are Church Age Saints who came out of great tribulation, in John 16:33 Jesus told us that we will always have tribulation on this earth. The Church has been martyred for 2000 years, from Rome to Islam and all things in between. That is indeed great tribulation, just not the greatest ever.

In Rev. 7:3 that is God making sure the 144,000 (a CODE for 5 million or so Jews who repent as in 1/3) or ALL Israel who repents gets PROTECTED before God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8, in Rev. 6 we merely get a FORETELLING of what's soon to come in Rev. 8s Trumpet Judgments, the 7 are the full Divinely Complete Wrath of God, this is why Seal #7 is over in Rev. 8, AFTER the Jews flee Judea in Rev. 7. Thus HURT NOT the Earth, Sea nor Trees refers to the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments being held up until the the 1/3 who repent an flee into the Petra./Bozrah region.

Rev. 9 is the Two Woes. The 200 Million are Angels, not China men.

I never said the greatest tribulation I said there is only one "the great tribulation" which is greater than other great tribulations and the ones in Revelation 7 aren't raptured I believe that they are martyred saints over all time.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Too bad. You should have stuck to the dispensational hermeneutic. Having the 70th week fulfilled in Jesus day is completely inconsistent with Daniel.

Actually no. I *intentionally* left the Dispensational hermeneutic because of the inconsistencies I found there. Having the 70th Week of Dan 9 fulfilled in Jesus' time is perfectly in accord with the 6 things Daniel was told the 70th Week would lead to. And these 6 things were things that Christ fulfilled in his earthly ministry.

On the other hand, separating the 70th week from the previous 69 weeks renders this not a 70 Week period but rather an unknown period of time. That's the major reason I gave up on that outlook.

The Roman conquest of jerusalem is also inconsistent with Matt. 24, Dan.9 and Revelation and thesselonians

The 3 Gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse are obviously in agreement with one another since they cover the same Discourse. In the place where Matthew and Mark mention the "Abomination of Desolation" Luke mentions the invasion of Jerusalem by what appears to be the Roman Army. Hence, the AoD is the Roman Army.

Since the Roman Army conquered Jerusalem in 70 AD that is obviously what Jesus was talking about when he talked about the destruction of the Temple and the invasion of Jerusalem. And being that he said it all--both the event and the preceding signs--would take place in "this generation" the conquest of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD could *only* be what Jesus was talking about in his Olivet Discourse. Revelation and 2 Thessalonians are separate subjects.

The Luke portion of the Olivet discourse focused on the 70AD fall of Jerusalem. MAtt.24 was futuristic.

This makes Luke incompatible with Matthew. I don't accept that.

A post trib rapure is inconsistent with Scripture. God delivers His people before great judgments (the flood) the siege of Jerusalem)It also contradicts Pauls promise in thesselonians.

Rescue from the eternal wrath of God poured out on the Antichristian Army does not mean that Christians cannot die in the conflagration. It is our faith and our soul that are saved from God's wrath, and death does not defeat that.

God may or may not deliver us from troubles in this life. Whether we are delivered or not, we are saved from the wrath of God by our repentance and faith in Christ.

Paul also described the abomination of desolation. It is singular and male and must stand in teh holy place (holy of holies) The Roman armies did not do that.

The "holy place" in the OT referred to the compartment in the Temple called "the Holy Place." Though this is the same word, the context is different.

The "holy place" in the NT is determined by context, and the context in the Olivet Discourse is a siege of Jerusalem. Just standing around the holy city and laying siege to it is trespass by pagan soldiers on holy territory.

Even though Israel was being judged, God was using unholy pagans to infiltrate and tread upon sacred territory. They were idolaters who penetrated past the walls and into the holy city itself--abominations that stood on this "holy place" to desolate it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hello Randy old friend, it looks like you have altered a few of your views which is good but the bible does state that "the great tribulation" is on the church not ethnic Israel.

Hi brother. Hope you're doing well?
No, I haven't changed my views on this particular point. I do see the Great Tribulation as a Jewish Punishment as explained in Luke 21. The whole point of the Olivet Discourse was that the large majority in Israel were falling away from their faith, and this was bringing divine punishment upon them as a nation.

The thing that indicated Israel was falling away from their faith was the fact they were persecuting the righteous among them, including Jesus and his disciples. And so, this Great Tribulation, said to continue throughout the ages, encompassed both national punishment and Christian suffering. I hope this clarifies?

 

[Marty fox]

Hi brother. Hope you're doing well?
No, I haven't changed my views on this particular point. I do see the Great Tribulation as a Jewish Punishment as explained in Luke 21. The whole point of the Olivet Discourse was that the large majority in Israel were falling away from their faith, and this was bringing divine punishment upon them as a nation.

The thing that indicated Israel was falling away from their faith was the fact they were persecuting the righteous among them, including Jesus and his disciples. And so, this Great Tribulation, said to continue throughout the ages, encompassed both national punishment and Christian suffering. I hope this clarifies?

But Revelation 7 tells us that the great tribulation is on the saints not unbelieving Israel. The wrath of God was on unbelieving Israel

Put the events of Matthew 24 along with the 6 events in revelation chapter 6 and you will see that they line up and revelation 6 states that it’s the wrath of God

https://thomastaylorministries.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Matthew-24-is-the-six-seals-of-revelation.jpg

 

[Randy Kluth]

But Revelation 7 tells us that the great tribulation is on the saints not unbelieving Israel. The wrath of God was on unbelieving Israel

Rom 2.8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

This "great distress" or "great tribulation" is designed to punish those who do evil, including Israel. Rev 7 informs us that the 144,000 are preserved from a destruction that is designed to bring the world into eternal judgment. But they obviously are being threatened with destruction without detailing all that they've had to suffer.

And I believe the Great Multitude from all nations in vs 14 present for us a vision of their entry into heaven at the *end* of this period of great distress. So yes, the saints suffer great tribulation and are delivered from it through resurrection. But the unrighteous also suffer it because of their wickedness. Both groups go through great tribulation, one deservedly and the other not.

Yes, it's the evil who suffer final wrath frorm God. But the righteous suffer in this present wicked world because we are going through what evil men have brought upon us.