My personal eclectic view

[Randy Kluth]

I was raised in a Lutheran Protestant household that lacked all of the contemporary interest in future prophecy. Nevertheless, we as a family noticed something significant, prophetically, in 1967 with the 7 Days War. And I began to study biblical prophecy and the book of Revelation.

When I became engaged with the Jesus People and young Christian revival movements in the early 70s, there was a focus on Dispensationalism, and I pursued an interest in Futurist eschatology with a Dispensationalist slant. But it wasn't long before a number of inconsistencies became obvious to me, and I had trouble harmonizing all of the beliefs.

I then turned to a systematic approach to prophetic interpretation, looking for significant markers in biblical history where certain truths became determinative in all that followed. For example, important prophetic markers would be Abraham's Covenant promises and Daniel's Dream. What resides in these events provide an important backdrop for the rest of biblical prophecy.

And instead of following a particular prophetic school I became convinced that even if one school is better than another it was likely that other schools were held together by a few strands of important prophetic truths. I wasn't going to let a flawed school keep me from accepting something they saw and others rejected strictly because their truths came from another, flawed school.

Dispensationalism has carried most of the weight in building assumptions surrounding various interpretations of relevant passages of the Bible. It views the 70th Week of Daniel 9 as future and disconnected from the previous 69 Weeks mentioned there. And it views the "Abomination of Desolation," mentioned in both Dan 9 and Matt 24, as a reference to the Antichrist.

The Book of Revelation was looked at by Dispensationalists as separated into two parts, the present Church Age and the final 7 years of Antichristian rule. The Church would be Raptured just before the rise of Antichrist, coinciding with John's Rapture to Heaven to see his visions. What followed would be 7 years of Antichristian rule prior to the Battle of Armageddon and Christ's 2nd Coming.

Dispensationalists typically view Postribulationists as anachronistic to Futurist belief, even though many of them are Futurists. And they view Preterists as antithetical to Futurism, even though some of their beliefs can be held to by Futurists. For example, the belief by Preterists that much of the Olivet Discourse is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD can be held to along with Futurist beliefs.

So, this is where I've come out. I believe the 70th Week of Daniel was fulfilled at the death of Christ. And I believe the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled when the Roman Army defeated Jerusalem in 70 AD. I'm also a Postribulationist who believes in a future 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist with the Church being Raptured at the end of this period. And I believe the Olivet Discourse was focused primarily on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, with the Roman Army being the Abomination of Desolation, and this event taking place literally in Jesus' generation, followed by a long age of Jewish exile, also called the "Great Tribulation."

I believe though discussion of the various issues sometimes leads to "bad blood," approaching the differences in a friendly way can have a positive effect. After all, we are pursuing Scriptural truth, which God gave to us for our edification. So I invite any and all takers on the issues I've raised?

 

[quietthinker]

I was raised in a Lutheran Protestant household that lacked all of the contemporary interest in future prophecy. Nevertheless, we as a family noticed something significant, prophetically, in 1967 with the 7 Days War. And I began to study biblical prophecy and the book of Revelation.

When I became engaged with the Jesus People and young Christian revival movements in the early 70s, there was a focus on Dispensationalism, and I pursued an interest in Futurist eschatology with a Dispensationalist slant. But it wasn't long before a number of inconsistencies became obvious to me, and I had trouble harmonizing all of the beliefs.

I then turned to a systematic approach to prophetic interpretation, looking for significant markers in biblical history where certain truths became determinative in all that followed. For example, important prophetic markers would be Abraham's Covenant promises and Daniel's Dream. What resides in these events provide an important backdrop for the rest of biblical prophecy.

And instead of following a particular prophetic school I became convinced that even if one school is better than another it was likely that other schools were held together by a few strands of important prophetic truths. I wasn't going to let a flawed school keep me from accepting something they saw and others rejected strictly because their truths came from another, flawed school.

Dispensationalism has carried most of the weight in building assumptions surrounding various interpretations of relevant passages of the Bible. It views the 70th Week of Daniel 9 as future and disconnected from the previous 69 Weeks mentioned there. And it views the "Abomination of Desolation," mentioned in both Dan 9 and Matt 24, as a reference to the Antichrist.

The Book of Revelation was looked at by Dispensationalists as separated into two parts, the present Church Age and the final 7 years of Antichristian rule. The Church would be Raptured just before the rise of Antichrist, coinciding with John's Rapture to Heaven to see his visions. What followed would be 7 years of Antichristian rule prior to the Battle of Armageddon and Christ's 2nd Coming.

Dispensationalists typically view Postribulationists as anachronistic to Futurist belief, even though many of them are Futurists. And they view Preterists as antithetical to Futurism, even though some of their beliefs can be held to by Futurists. For example, the belief by Preterists that much of the Olivet Discourse is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD can be held to along with Futurist beliefs.

So, this is where I've come out. I believe the 70th Week of Daniel was fulfilled at the death of Christ. And I believe the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled when the Roman Army defeated Jerusalem in 70 AD. I'm also a Postribulationist who believes in a future 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist with the Church being Raptured at the end of this period. And I believe the Olivet Discourse was focused primarily on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, with the Roman Army being the Abomination of Desolation, and this event taking place literally in Jesus' generation, followed by a long age of Jewish exile, also called the "Great Tribulation."

I believe though discussion of the various issues sometimes leads to "bad blood," approaching the differences in a friendly way can have a positive effect. After all, we are pursuing Scriptural truth, which God gave to us for our edification. So I invite any and all takers on the issues I've raised?

2 Corinthians 1:20
'For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.'
Understanding the above and how it applies is critical. Without it we interpret with a blinkered view, inevitably arriving at faulty conclusions. We get caught in a labyrinth with messy dead ends.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I was raised in a Lutheran Protestant household that lacked all of the contemporary interest in future prophecy. Nevertheless, we as a family noticed something significant, prophetically, in 1967 with the 7 Days War. And I began to study biblical prophecy and the book of Revelation.

When I became engaged with the Jesus People and young Christian revival movements in the early 70s, there was a focus on Dispensationalism, and I pursued an interest in Futurist eschatology with a Dispensationalist slant. But it wasn't long before a number of inconsistencies became obvious to me, and I had trouble harmonizing all of the beliefs.

I then turned to a systematic approach to prophetic interpretation, looking for significant markers in biblical history where certain truths became determinative in all that followed. For example, important prophetic markers would be Abraham's Covenant promises and Daniel's Dream. What resides in these events provide an important backdrop for the rest of biblical prophecy.

And instead of following a particular prophetic school I became convinced that even if one school is better than another it was likely that other schools were held together by a few strands of important prophetic truths. I wasn't going to let a flawed school keep me from accepting something they saw and others rejected strictly because their truths came from another, flawed school.

Dispensationalism has carried most of the weight in building assumptions surrounding various interpretations of relevant passages of the Bible. It views the 70th Week of Daniel 9 as future and disconnected from the previous 69 Weeks mentioned there. And it views the "Abomination of Desolation," mentioned in both Dan 9 and Matt 24, as a reference to the Antichrist.

The Book of Revelation was looked at by Dispensationalists as separated into two parts, the present Church Age and the final 7 years of Antichristian rule. The Church would be Raptured just before the rise of Antichrist, coinciding with John's Rapture to Heaven to see his visions. What followed would be 7 years of Antichristian rule prior to the Battle of Armageddon and Christ's 2nd Coming.

Dispensationalists typically view Postribulationists as anachronistic to Futurist belief, even though many of them are Futurists. And they view Preterists as antithetical to Futurism, even though some of their beliefs can be held to by Futurists. For example, the belief by Preterists that much of the Olivet Discourse is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD can be held to along with Futurist beliefs.

So, this is where I've come out. I believe the 70th Week of Daniel was fulfilled at the death of Christ. And I believe the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled when the Roman Army defeated Jerusalem in 70 AD. I'm also a Postribulationist who believes in a future 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist with the Church being Raptured at the end of this period. And I believe the Olivet Discourse was focused primarily on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, with the Roman Army being the Abomination of Desolation, and this event taking place literally in Jesus' generation, followed by a long age of Jewish exile, also called the "Great Tribulation."

I believe though discussion of the various issues sometimes leads to "bad blood," approaching the differences in a friendly way can have a positive effect. After all, we are pursuing Scriptural truth, which God gave to us for our edification. So I invite any and all takers on the issues I've raised?

And you have been misled, Satan never stops trying to deceive, Paul tells us that.

What part of Jesus is killed/cut off after the 62 and 7 weeks or 69 weeks confuses you brother? How can 69 weeks of judgment (483 years) turn into 70 weeks (490) ? Did God lie? The prophesy clearly states that Israel must repent before this prophesy can be fulfilled.

In my honest opinion, people get an idea, and they will twist away at the scriptures to make it fit, I used to be that way before I understand the goal was TRUTH not me being CORRECT. God loves making me admit I am wrong, because that means His truth can come in. My opinion matters not to God.

Zech. 13:8-9 shows 1/3 or 5 million Jews repenting. That means the 70th week happens at the very end, after the fulness of the Gentiles CALLING is over, and that calling unto Service was to take the gospel into all the world. At the AGREEMENT between the AC (E.U. Leader) and Israel (Israel joins the E.U. its that simple) we will see the 70th week start up AND the Pre 70th week rapture both happen at the exact same timeframe. Then the 3.5 years of Israel being a part of the E.U. with relative "peace" kicks in. Then a Jewish High Priest, like unto Jason under Antiochus creates the AoD et al. He see the 5 million Jews coming into "HIS TEMPLE" worshiping Jesus and he forbids it (TAKES AWAY THE.....REAL.......Sacrifice) and then cheekily places an IMAGE (bust or whatever) of the Anti-Christ up in the temple, Rev. 13 says he does this, and that is the AoD, that can not be the AC's doing, he only comes to power 30 days later at the 1260 events, the 1290 happens before the 1260.

The truth is, most people really just do not understand prophesy, that is why we have 100s of interpretations on everything, the church should learn how to hear better. God has called people to interpret properly, but we forget, Israel wouldn't even listen to the prophets in their time, they killed half of them because they hated God's word which cuts like a sword. The prophets exposed their own ways as them serving false gods, living in sin etc. etc.

 

[covenantee]

And you have been misled, Satan never stops trying to deceive, Paul tells us that.

What part of Jesus is killed/cut off after the 62 and 7 weeks or 69 weeks confuses you brother? How can 69 weeks of judgment (483 years) turn into 70 weeks (490) ? Did God lie? The prophesy clearly states that Israel must repent before this prophesy can be fulfilled.

In my honest opinion, people get an idea, and they will twist away at the scriptures to make it fit, I used to be that way before I understand the goal was TRUTH not me being CORRECT. God loves making me admit I am wrong, because that means His truth can come in. My opinion matters not to God.

Zech. 13:8-9 shows 1/3 or 5 million Jews repenting. That means the 70th week happens at the very end, after the fulness of the Gentiles CALLING is over, and that calling unto Service was to take the gospel into all the world. At the AGREEMENT between the AC (E.U. Leader) and Israel (Israel joins the E.U. its that simple) we will see the 70th week start up AND the Pre 70th week rapture both happen at the exact same timeframe. Then the 3.5 years of Israel being a part of the E.U. with relative "peace" kicks in. Then a Jewish High Priest, like unto Jason under Antiochus creates the AoD et al. He see the 5 million Jews coming into "HIS TEMPLE" worshiping Jesus and he forbids it (TAKES AWAY THE.....REAL.......Sacrifice) and then cheekily places an IMAGE (bust or whatever) of the Anti-Christ up in the temple, Rev. 13 says he does this, and that is the AoD, that can not be the AC's doing, he only comes to power 30 days later at the 1260 events, the 1290 happens before the 1260.

The truth is, most people really just do not understand prophesy, that is why we have 100s of interpretations on everything, the church should learn how to hear better. God has called people to interpret properly, but we forget, Israel wouldn't even listen to the prophets in their time, they killed half of them because they hated God's word which cuts like a sword. The prophets exposed their own ways as them serving false gods, living in sin etc. etc.

Daniel 9:24 declares that "Seventy weeks are determined..."

That's all seventy.

But your 70th week is decapitated, orphaned, and undetermined.

It thus violates Daniel 9:24 and denies the perfect completed accomplishments of Christ at Calvary.

It attempts to contort Christ into antichrist.

It is modernist revisionist fantasy and fallacy which is found nowhere in post-apostolic pre-1800 Christian orthodoxy.

It is the epitome of prophetic trash, and warrants nothing other than treatment as such.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

And you have been misled, Satan never stops trying to deceive, Paul tells us that.

What part of Jesus is killed/cut off after the 62 and 7 weeks or 69 weeks confuses you brother? How can 69 weeks of judgment (483 years) turn into 70 weeks (490) ? Did God lie? The prophesy clearly states that Israel must repent before this prophesy can be fulfilled.

In my honest opinion, people get an idea, and they will twist away at the scriptures to make it fit, I used to be that way before I understand the goal was TRUTH not me being CORRECT. God loves making me admit I am wrong, because that means His truth can come in. My opinion matters not to God.

Zech. 13:8-9 shows 1/3 or 5 million Jews repenting. That means the 70th week happens at the very end, after the fulness of the Gentiles CALLING is over, and that calling unto Service was to take the gospel into all the world. At the AGREEMENT between the AC (E.U. Leader) and Israel (Israel joins the E.U. its that simple) we will see the 70th week start up AND the Pre 70th week rapture both happen at the exact same timeframe. Then the 3.5 years of Israel being a part of the E.U. with relative "peace" kicks in. Then a Jewish High Priest, like unto Jason under Antiochus creates the AoD et al. He see the 5 million Jews coming into "HIS TEMPLE" worshiping Jesus and he forbids it (TAKES AWAY THE.....REAL.......Sacrifice) and then cheekily places an IMAGE (bust or whatever) of the Anti-Christ up in the temple, Rev. 13 says he does this, and that is the AoD, that can not be the AC's doing, he only comes to power 30 days later at the 1260 events, the 1290 happens before the 1260.

The truth is, most people really just do not understand prophesy, that is why we have 100s of interpretations on everything, the church should learn how to hear better. God has called people to interpret properly, but we forget, Israel wouldn't even listen to the prophets in their time, they killed half of them because they hated God's word which cuts like a sword. The prophets exposed their own ways as them serving false gods, living in sin etc. etc.

I don't worry about demons of Satan, because I am born again and keep myself from evil by obeying God's Word. 1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

 

[Marty fox]

I was raised in a Lutheran Protestant household that lacked all of the contemporary interest in future prophecy. Nevertheless, we as a family noticed something significant, prophetically, in 1967 with the 7 Days War. And I began to study biblical prophecy and the book of Revelation.

When I became engaged with the Jesus People and young Christian revival movements in the early 70s, there was a focus on Dispensationalism, and I pursued an interest in Futurist eschatology with a Dispensationalist slant. But it wasn't long before a number of inconsistencies became obvious to me, and I had trouble harmonizing all of the beliefs.

I then turned to a systematic approach to prophetic interpretation, looking for significant markers in biblical history where certain truths became determinative in all that followed. For example, important prophetic markers would be Abraham's Covenant promises and Daniel's Dream. What resides in these events provide an important backdrop for the rest of biblical prophecy.

And instead of following a particular prophetic school I became convinced that even if one school is better than another it was likely that other schools were held together by a few strands of important prophetic truths. I wasn't going to let a flawed school keep me from accepting something they saw and others rejected strictly because their truths came from another, flawed school.

Dispensationalism has carried most of the weight in building assumptions surrounding various interpretations of relevant passages of the Bible. It views the 70th Week of Daniel 9 as future and disconnected from the previous 69 Weeks mentioned there. And it views the "Abomination of Desolation," mentioned in both Dan 9 and Matt 24, as a reference to the Antichrist.

The Book of Revelation was looked at by Dispensationalists as separated into two parts, the present Church Age and the final 7 years of Antichristian rule. The Church would be Raptured just before the rise of Antichrist, coinciding with John's Rapture to Heaven to see his visions. What followed would be 7 years of Antichristian rule prior to the Battle of Armageddon and Christ's 2nd Coming.

Dispensationalists typically view Postribulationists as anachronistic to Futurist belief, even though many of them are Futurists. And they view Preterists as antithetical to Futurism, even though some of their beliefs can be held to by Futurists. For example, the belief by Preterists that much of the Olivet Discourse is about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD can be held to along with Futurist beliefs.

So, this is where I've come out. I believe the 70th Week of Daniel was fulfilled at the death of Christ. And I believe the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled when the Roman Army defeated Jerusalem in 70 AD. I'm also a Postribulationist who believes in a future 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist with the Church being Raptured at the end of this period. And I believe the Olivet Discourse was focused primarily on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, with the Roman Army being the Abomination of Desolation, and this event taking place literally in Jesus' generation, followed by a long age of Jewish exile, also called the "Great Tribulation."

I believe though discussion of the various issues sometimes leads to "bad blood," approaching the differences in a friendly way can have a positive effect. After all, we are pursuing Scriptural truth, which God gave to us for our edification. So I invite any and all takers on the issues I've raised?

Hello Randy old friend, it looks like you have altered a few of your views which is good but the bible does state that "the great tribulation" is on the church not ethnic Israel.

Revelation 7

9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. 10 And they were shouting with a great roar,

“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
and from the Lamb!”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God. 12 They sang,

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom
and thanksgiving and honor
and power and strength belong to our God
forever and ever! Amen.”
13 Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, “Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in[a] the great tribulation.[b] They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

I believe that a lot of Christians confuse the great tribulation with the wrath of God

The great tribulation is on the saint who are protected by the wrath of God by Gods seal

The wrath of God is on the unsaved including unbelieving ethic Israel.

Revelation 7
3 “Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”

Revelation 9
4 They were told not to harm the grass or plants or trees, but only the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads

 

[XtraPercept]

I believe though discussion of the various issues sometimes leads to "bad blood," approaching the differences in a friendly way can have a positive effect. After all, we are pursuing Scriptural truth, which God gave to us for our edification. So I invite any and all takers on the issues I've raised?

Lutheran
Protestant
Jesus People
Dispensationalism
Futurist eschatology
Prophetic school
Rapture
Antichristian
Post-tribulationist
Preterist
Olivet Discourse

These are all the particularly religious words and phrases I read from your post that have no direct scriptural root word.

Each of these expressions represent an amalgamation of ideas formed according to a particular characteristic of alignment.

Their powers are all similarly rooted in bombast, hence their engagement and contention on the same platforms and foundations of thought.

Behold, the LORD does a new thing.

The only real foundation is truth, the only appropriate perspective is God's, and the only way to see it is belief.

Truth is clarity, not artificial and contrived new words just to can a sermon series for transport to the belief buffet.

 

[covenantee]

Hello Randy old friend, it looks like you have altered a few of your views which is good but the bible does state that "the great tribulation" is on the church not ethnic Israel.

Revelation 7

9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. 10 And they were shouting with a great roar,

“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
and from the Lamb!”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God. 12 They sang,

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom
and thanksgiving and honor
and power and strength belong to our God
forever and ever! Amen.”
13 Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, “Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in[a] the great tribulation.[b] They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

I believe that a lot of Christians confuse the great tribulation with the wrath of God

The great tribulation is on the saint who are protected by the wrath of God by Gods seal

The wrath of God is on the unsaved including unbelieving ethic Israel.

Revelation 7
3 “Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”

Revelation 9
4 They were told not to harm the grass or plants or trees, but only the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads

Marty, "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 is clearly associated with 70 AD, as it states "then", referring to the time associated with the warnings in the preceding verses, which were recognized and heeded by the Judaean Christians in their flight preceding the destruction of Jerusalem.

And yes, that was not the wrath of God. I don't see that Randy was claiming that.

 

[Douggg]

I believe the 70th Week of Daniel was fulfilled at the death of Christ. And I believe the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled when the Roman Army defeated Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The 70th week of Daniel 9:27 coincides with the seven years of Ezekiel 39::9 that follow the destruction of the Gog/Magog armies that attack on Israel. Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16, that chapter also is about the Gog/Magog attack is said in those verses to be timed for the latter days, latter years.

The abomination of desolation will be "set-up" as it says in Daniel 12:11. The 1290 days of Daniel 12:11 and the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12 both fit within the 7 years.

 

[Marty fox]

"Great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 is clearly associated with 70 AD, as it refers to "then", which was the time associated with the warnings in the preceding verses, which were recognized and heeded by the Judaean Christians in their flight preceding the destruction of Jerusalem.

And yes, that was not the wrath of God. I don't see that Randy was claiming that.

Yes 70AD was a great tribulation but not "the great tribulation". There are many great tribulations in our world currently and in the past but Jeus told the angles to tell John what "the great tribulation" was it singled out.

70AD was the wrath of God on apostate Israel

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

Matthew 24
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Matthew 21
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[h]?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”[i]

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

 

[covenantee]

Yes 70AD was a great tribulation but not "the great tribulation". There are many great tribulations in our world currently and in the past but Jeus told the angles to tell John what "the great tribulation" was it singled out.

70AD was the wrath of God on apostate Israel

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

Matthew 24
Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Matthew 21
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[h]?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”[i]

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

70 AD was "a" great tribulation upon apostate Israel.

I see nowhere that it is identified as the "wrath of God" upon apostate Israel.

 

[Marty fox]

70 AD was "a" great tribulation upon apostate Israel.

I see nowhere that it is identified as the "wrath of God" upon apostate Israel.

Then who did it and for whose purpose?

As the verses I provided shows that Rome did it for Gods purpose

 

[covenantee]

Then who did it and for whose purpose?

Rome did it for Gods purpose

I agree.

But Jesus identified it as tribulation rather than wrath, local rather than global in scope.

 

[Marty fox]

I agree.

But Jesus identified it as tribulation rather than wrath, local rather than global in scope.

Gods wrath on apostate Israel was a tribulation to apostate Israel.

Re read the three text that I quoted and you will see that it was the wrath of God

 

[1stCenturyLady]

.

 

[covenantee]

Gods wrath on apostate Israel was a tribulation to apostate Israel.

Re read the three text that I quoted and you will see that it was the wrath on God

I don't see any NT Scripture where the words "wrath" and "tribulation" appear in close proximity to one another.

Do you?

It's always exclusively one or the other.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So, this is where I've come out. I believe the 70th Week of Daniel was fulfilled at the death of Christ. And I believe the Abomination of Desolation was fulfilled when the Roman Army defeated Jerusalem in 70 AD. I'm also a Postribulationist who believes in a future 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist with the Church being Raptured at the end of this period. And I believe the Olivet Discourse was focused primarily on the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, with the Roman Army being the Abomination of Desolation, and this event taking place literally in Jesus' generation, followed by a long age of Jewish exile, also called the "Great Tribulation."

When you read both Revelation 12 and the first part of chapter 13, what you are describing for the rapture is mid-trib, not post trib. The GT is two 3.5 year periods. The first half is in chapter 12, but there is a second one where the beast is allowed to continue for another 42 months.

Personally, I'm post-wrath. The Great Tribulation is a time of trial, not wrath. A time to choose at a heavy cost. It includes most of the Church denominations - all except Philadelphians. Now whether or not they are kept from the hour or trial is a pre-trib. rapture, or God's hand of protection over them during the GT, I don't know. That is not revealed enough, and it hasn't been revealed to me by the Spirit.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Gods wrath on apostate Israel was a tribulation to apostate Israel.

Re read the three text that I quoted and you will see that it was the wrath on God

"Wrath ON God? Whose wrath? The Antichrist?

 

[covenantee]

"Wrath ON God? Whose wrath? The Antichrist?

He meant "of".

 

[Marty fox]

"Wrath ON God? Whose wrath? The Antichrist?

My bad "of God"