Fake Pretrib claims re the early Church fathers

[Taken]

Why?
The passage speaks of God's righteous judgment.
The Lord is coming to repay those who persecute the Church

Not in dispute.

and also at the same time to bring relief and glory to those who are faithful.

To those who ARE Faithful… They Come WITH Him.

To those who BECOME Faithful anytime during the Trib., Their “subjection” to the Great Trib ends….[Bodily Killed for their Belief, so they can Receive Salvation…]
And their soul…alive, departs their dead body…and?

1Thes.4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Rev 7:
[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Paul includes himself in this climactic future event.

Saul (to) Paul’s earthly “transformation”…
Was at the Request / Calling of the Lord, to which Paul instantly Accepted, and Further a very Hard Service Paul would be Required to Accomplish…(and Did).

Sauls’ (prior works)…like any mans (anti-Christs behavior)… can Be Forgiven…
Which Forgiveness does NOT Mean…
“Void of consequence for any / past anti-Christ behavior”…

The Lord God HAS “Rewards”…
That which ARE Given to Any man, whose “works” Glorify God.

Any man whose “Works” do NOT Glorify God… lose out on Rewards “they could have Gained / had / been slated to Receive.”

Some men…live Years and Years, without “storing Up Rewards” (called Treasures IN Heaven)…
SAUL lived years… preaching Against Christ Jesus….AND persecuting Believers IN Christ…Losing out on years of Rewards “he could of gained”…
As Paul, he understood his loss… and carried that “weight of loss with him”…teaching others… how that loss lingered and disturbed him…and preaching how others could avoid making the same “past” mistake he did.

Paul often used himself, his choices, his consequences as a means of an example to teach others.

Acts 9:
[15] But the Lord said unto him, (Ananias) Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, (Lord) to bear my (Lord) name (Jesus) before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[16] For I (Lord Jesus) will shew him (Paul) how great things he (Paul) must suffer for my (Lord) name's (Jesus) sake.


Matt 6:
[20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Rev 22:
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Some shall receive great rewards for their works that Glorified God.
All shall Have “their works BURNED”, that which Did NOT glorify God.

Saul, like many men, waste years… doing works Not glorifying your God.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire,

No one is preaching Denial of Gods Righteous Judgements.
They worthy of His Kingdom, ARE they already MADE “whole”… (body, soul, spirit)
2 Cor 5:
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
And … any who become Heartful Believers…before their natural bodily Death.

The Lord is coming

No disagreement.
His “Church / Bride” comes, returns To Earth,
With Him.

in complete vengeance to eternally separate those

Specifically…The Lord, in the Likeness as the “Son of Man”…(so all Eyes can actually SEE Him)… sits on A White Cloud (not Earth)…and Divides / Separates … men remaining ALive ON Earth..
Unsav-ED non believers…
From
Unsaved believers…(they who came into Belief during the Trib… )that were neither saved or bodily killed. They remain mortal, and will repopulate the Earth…While the Lord, His Bride, His holy Angel Servants…occupy Christ the Lords earthly Kingdom…(land mass, area, Promised to Abraham and his Descendants… including Jerusalem, king Davids Everlasting throne (God Established)
2 Sam 7:16.

What do you find difficult about the whole passage???

I find Nothing difficult about Scriptural passages. The Whole Bible is A Book of Knowledge.

The “STUDY” part is Very Time consuming for a serious Biblical Student.
Taking EACH passage IN Context…
Of WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHY, WHERE…
It DOES or does NOT Apply to such INDIVIDUAL.

All men Have FREEWILL to Believe and Do as they choose…
No one knows better than (who) MYSELF (and God) of what, when, why, where, I believe…
And thus I study scriptural Passages… according to “that criteria” that which applies TO me specific…whether or not it applies to any other person….does not affect me.
(they exercise their own FREEWILL )

I chose to accept, take the lord Gods Offering. I have Zero doubt what the Lord God has Given me For “my” choice.
I choose to Glorify God according to Gods Word.
I have zero doubt, my glorifying works will be rewarded and works I did not, do not Glorify God shall be burned.
I, like Paul, have past works that regretfully were NOT glorifying to God.

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day ,

No dispute…

As to the rest of your post it is completely void of any scriptures

So? Am I required to presume you do NOT know HOW TO verify what you are Told / hear?

It is Scripturally “your job, to verify what you hear”… and if you can not verify, then you ask.

and a common sense approach to the sacred text above.

You want a “common sense” approach, discussion regarding Spiritual things?

Why? Common sense is deduced from the Works of the Brain, the Carnal Mind, weighing this and that to conclude a Logical Conclusion…

There is Nothing “Logical” for a man to Believe IN something, he can NOT, see, hear, smell, taste, touch… ( you know …uh, like God)…
And likely Why God said the Carnal Mind IS Against Him.
Rom 8:7
and Can Not Understand Spiritual things…
1 Cor 2:14

Its all you and your opinion it seems..

Most definitely my opinion. Of course I speak MY Opinion…( I trust my Teachers Word, teaching, doctrine, is True).

Why? “WHO” should “I” ask is “your” opinion, what “you” believe and why “you” believe it?


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[WPM]

Not in dispute.



To those who ARE Faithful… They Come WITH Him.

To those who BECOME Faithful anytime during the Trib., Their “subjection” to the Great Trib ends….[Bodily Killed for their Belief, so they can Receive Salvation…]
And their soul…alive, departs their dead body…and?

1Thes.4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Rev 7:
[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.



Saul (to) Paul’s earthly “transformation”…
Was at the Request / Calling of the Lord, to which Paul instantly Accepted, and Further a very Hard Service Paul would be Required to Accomplish…(and Did).

Sauls’ (prior works)…like any mans (anti-Christs behavior)… can Be Forgiven…
Which Forgiveness does NOT Mean…
“Void of consequence for any / past anti-Christ behavior”…

The Lord God HAS “Rewards”…
That which ARE Given to Any man, whose “works” Glorify God.

Any man whose “Works” do NOT Glorify God… lose out on Rewards “they could have Gained / had / been slated to Receive.”

Some men…live Years and Years, without “storing Up Rewards” (called Treasures IN Heaven)…
SAUL lived years… preaching Against Christ Jesus….AND persecuting Believers IN Christ…Losing out on years of Rewards “he could of gained”…
As Paul, he understood his loss… and carried that “weight of loss with him”…teaching others… how that loss lingered and disturbed him…and preaching how others could avoid making the same “past” mistake he did.

Paul often used himself, his choices, his consequences as a means of an example to teach others.

Acts 9:
[15] But the Lord said unto him, (Ananias) Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, (Lord) to bear my (Lord) name (Jesus) before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[16] For I (Lord Jesus) will shew him (Paul) how great things he (Paul) must suffer for my (Lord) name's (Jesus) sake.


Matt 6:
[20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Rev 22:
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Some shall receive great rewards for their works that Glorified God.
All shall Have “their works BURNED”, that which Did NOT glorify God.

Saul, like many men, waste years… doing works Not glorifying your God.



No one is preaching Denial of Gods Righteous Judgements.
They worthy of His Kingdom, ARE they already MADE “whole”… (body, soul, spirit)
2 Cor 5:
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
And … any who become Heartful Believers…before their natural bodily Death.



No disagreement.
His “Church / Bride” comes, returns To Earth,
With Him.



Specifically…The Lord, in the Likeness as the “Son of Man”…(so all Eyes can actually SEE Him)… sits on A White Cloud (not Earth)…and Divides / Separates … men remaining ALive ON Earth..
Unsav-ED non believers…
From
Unsaved believers…(they who came into Belief during the Trib… )that were neither saved or bodily killed. They remain mortal, and will repopulate the Earth…While the Lord, His Bride, His holy Angel Servants…occupy Christ the Lords earthly Kingdom…(land mass, area, Promised to Abraham and his Descendants… including Jerusalem, king Davids Everlasting throne (God Established)
2 Sam 7:16.



I find Nothing difficult about Scriptural passages. The Whole Bible is A Book of Knowledge.

The “STUDY” part is Very Time consuming for a serious Biblical Student.
Taking EACH passage IN Context…
Of WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHY, WHERE…
It DOES or does NOT Apply to such INDIVIDUAL.

All men Have FREEWILL to Believe and Do as they choose…
No one knows better than (who) MYSELF (and God) of what, when, why, where, I believe…
And thus I study scriptural Passages… according to “that criteria” that which applies TO me specific…whether or not it applies to any other person….does not affect me.
(they exercise their own FREEWILL )

I chose to accept, take the lord Gods Offering. I have Zero doubt what the Lord God has Given me For “my” choice.
I choose to Glorify God according to Gods Word.
I have zero doubt, my glorifying works will be rewarded and works I did not, do not Glorify God shall be burned.
I, like Paul, have past works that regretfully were NOT glorifying to God.



No dispute…



So? Am I required to presume you do NOT know HOW TO verify what you are Told / hear?

It is Scripturally “your job, to verify what you hear”… and if you can not verify, then you ask.



You want a “common sense” approach, discussion regarding Spiritual things?

Why? Common sense is deduced from the Works of the Brain, the Carnal Mind, weighing this and that to conclude a Logical Conclusion…

There is Nothing “Logical” for a man to Believe IN something, he can NOT, see, hear, smell, taste, touch… ( you know …uh, like God)…
And likely Why God said the Carnal Mind IS Against Him.
Rom 8:7
and Can Not Understand Spiritual things…
1 Cor 2:14



Most definitely my opinion. Of course I speak MY Opinion…( I trust my Teachers Word, teaching, doctrine, is True).

Why? “WHO” should “I” ask is “your” opinion, what “you” believe and why “you” believe it?


Glory to God,
Taken

Show us one Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7 years tribulation period, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

 

[Taken]

Show us one Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church,

Christs Church Not appointed to Wrath.
1 Thes 5:9

Christs Church Delivered From Wrath.
1 Thes 1:10

Christs Church Caught Up to Clouds
1 Thes 4:17

followed by a 7 years tribulation period,

Wrath of the Lamb.
Rev 6:16

Devils Wrath
Rev 12:12

Gods Wrath
Rev 16:1

Time Frame:
Wrath 40+ 2 Months (3.5 years)
Rev 11:2
Wrath continued 1260 Days (3.5 years)
Rev 13:5
( 3.5 yrs + 3.5 years = 7 years)

followed by a third coming of the Lord?

# 1
Lord in High Heaven Descent to Lower Heaven… Clouds
1 Thes 4:16

# 2
Son of man / From Heaven to A White Cloud.
Rev 14:14

#3
Lamb To Mt. Zion
Rev 14:1

# 4
Lord with Power (Christ) return TO Earth, King of His Earthly Kingdom, His Throne, Jerusalem.
Rev 19:16

Timeframe immediately After Christ Jesus (now) KING of kings…
KING Christ the Lord Jesus Reigns 1,000 years (without presence of Satan and his Angels on Earth)
Rev 20:5


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[WPM]

Christs Church Not appointed to Wrath.
1 Thes 5:9

Christs Church Delivered From Wrath.
1 Thes 1:10

Christs Church Caught Up to Clouds
1 Thes 4:17



Wrath of the Lamb.
Rev 6:16

Devils Wrath
Rev 12:12

Gods Wrath
Rev 16:1

Time Frame:
Wrath 40+ 2 Months (3.5 years)
Rev 11:2
Wrath continued 1260 Days (3.5 years)
Rev 13:5
( 3.5 yrs + 3.5 years = 7 years)



# 1
Lord in High Heaven Descent to Lower Heaven… Clouds
1 Thes 4:16

# 2
Son of man / From Heaven to A White Cloud.
Rev 14:14

#3
Lamb To Mt. Zion
Rev 14:1

# 4
Lord with Power (Christ) return TO Earth, King of His Earthly Kingdom, His Throne, Jerusalem.
Rev 19:16

Timeframe immediately After Christ Jesus (now) KING of kings…
KING Christ the Lord Jesus Reigns 1,000 years (without presence of Satan and his Angels on Earth)
Rev 20:5


Glory to God,
Taken

You are butchering the Word. 2+2+2=6, not 666. You have yet to answer the question.

All the wicked are destroyed at Christ's return from the wrath of God. There are no survivors. Give me a rapture passage that teaches otherwise.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

There are many deceptions outside the body of Christ, but, has there ever been a more blatant and successful deception of believers than Pretrib, which enjoys no biblical foundation? Pretribbers know they have no supporting Scripture, yet they still promote what they have been taught rigidly.

 

[jeffweeder]

To those who ARE Faithful… They Come WITH Him.

The souls of those who died come with him. They are then raised bodily and glorified along with those alive. We are caught up together to meet the Lord.

No one is preaching Denial of Gods Righteous Judgements.

Good. But it is the last judgment that is in view here.
Paul places himself as being glorified along with all who have believed at the Lords coming in complete everlasting vengeance of the ungodly.


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

Most definitely my opinion. Of course I speak MY Opinion…( I trust my Teachers Word, teaching, doctrine, is True).

Why? “WHO” should “I” ask is “your” opinion, what “you” believe and why “you” believe it?

Jesus, Paul, John, Peter are my teachers and corroboration is established by them. This makes forming an opinion much easier and simpler.

 

[Taken]

The souls of those who died come with him. [/B]

Vague.
“The” Souls?…What souls? Dead?, Living? Saved? Unsaved ?
Where ARE “They”?
Where ARE “They” coming FROM?
Where ARE “They” going TO?
WHO is “him”?
WHERE is “he”?
WHERE is “he” coming FROM specifically?
WHERE is “he” going TO specifically?

WHEN “exactly” IS …coming From some place to another place “Happening”?

Before The last Great Trib?
During The Last Great Trib?
After the Last Great Trib?
During Jesus 1,000 year Reign ?

They are then raised bodily and glorified along with those alive.

Vague.

“Then”… “THEY” “WHO“ exactly?
“WHEN” exactly?

“Alive Bodys” ARE Glorified?
“WHAT” Exactly Alive Body’s “ARE Glorified”?

We are caught up together to meet the Lord.

WHO exactly is “WE”?
WHEN exactly is your “WE” caught UP?
What IS “caught UP”?
From WHERE TO WHERE?
Where “EXACTLY” is the Lord?

Jesus, Paul, John, Peter are my teachers

So? I have testified of having the same teachers.

This makes forming an opinion much easier and simpler.

And? What IS your point?
“YOU” Have NO Opinion?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Christs Church Not appointed to Wrath.
1 Thes 5:9

Christs Church Delivered From Wrath.
1 Thes 1:10

Christs Church Caught Up to Clouds
1 Thes 4:17

The context of all three verses is the day Christ returns. The wrath that we are not appointed to and will be delivered from is described in verses written shortly after 1 Thess 4:17 and shortly before 1 Thess 5:9. Here is the context of the wrath that we are not appointed to and when it will occur.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

This passage establishes the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:9. We are not appointed to experience the "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" on the day that the Lord comes as a thief in the night. Instead, we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. All believers will put on bodily immortality and caught up to meet Christ on the day Jesus comes as a thief in the night and all unbelievers will be destroyed on that day.

 

[WPM]

The context of all three verses is the day Christ returns. The wrath that we are not appointed to and will be delivered from is described in verses written shortly after 1 Thess 4:17 and shortly before 1 Thess 5:9. Here is the context of the wrath that we are not appointed to and when it will occur.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

This passage establishes the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:9. We are not appointed to experience the "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" on the day that the Lord comes as a thief in the night. Instead, we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. All believers will put on bodily immortality and caught up to meet Christ on the day Jesus comes as a thief in the night and all unbelievers will be destroyed on that day.

Very well put!

 

[jeffweeder]

The context of all three verses is the day Christ returns. The wrath that we are not appointed to and will be delivered from is described in verses written shortly after 1 Thess 4:17 and shortly before 1 Thess 5:9. Here is the context of the wrath that we are not appointed to and when it will occur.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

This passage establishes the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:9. We are not appointed to experience the "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" on the day that the Lord comes as a thief in the night. Instead, we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. All believers will put on bodily immortality and caught up to meet Christ on the day Jesus comes as a thief in the night and all unbelievers will be destroyed on that day.

Exactly what 2 Thess 1 describes in Paul's more comprehensive 2nd letter to them.

We are not in darkness and that day will not overtake us. That means we are ready and present when that day does come. Plenty of corroboration for that idea .

Glorified on the day the Lord comes to eternally separate the ungodly.

 

[jeffweeder]

jeffweeder said
The souls of those who died come with him. [/B]

Taken said
Vague.
“The” Souls?…What souls? Dead?, Living? Saved? Unsaved ?

The context of the chapter suggests they are the dead in Christ.

Taken said
WHO is “him”?

Seriously?

Taken said
WHERE is “he”?

Right hand of the Father

WHERE is “he” coming FROM specifically?

Right hand of the Father

Taken said
WHERE is “he” going TO specifically?

Planet earth

WHEN “exactly” IS …coming From some place to another place “Happening”?

End of the present age as we now know it. The last day, the fixed day of judgment.


Jeffweeder said
They are then raised bodily and glorified along with those alive.

Taken said
Vague “Then”… “THEY” “WHO“ exactly?

The dead in Christ, who else?

Taken said
“WHEN” exactly?

When he comes dealing out complete vengeance on those who rejected the gospel when they were alive.
Read 2Thess 1 and embrace it.

jeffweeder said
We are caught up together to meet the Lord.

Taken said
WHO exactly is “WE”?

The alive and dead in Christ...who else could the text be referring to?



jeffweeder said
This makes forming an opinion much easier and simpler.

Taken said
And? What IS your point?
“YOU” Have NO Opinion?

Scripture rules over opinions. Quote only that not your fav teacher. No need to mess with the foundations.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly what 2 Thess 1 describes in Paul's more comprehensive 2nd letter to them.

We are not in darkness and that day will not overtake us. That means we are ready and present when that day does come. Plenty of corroboration for that idea .

Glorified on the day the Lord comes to eternally separate the ungodly.

Right. I was thinking of that passage, also, but decided not to reference it since I thought I had already made my point.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

I sometimes have tried to get pre-tribs to address verse 10 in this passage, but they rarely do. I don't know how anyone can think that the day that Jesus will come "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" will not be the day that the rapture occurs. When else will He come "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" except for the day when we are caught up to meet Him in the air to be with Him forever? It's obvious that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 refers to the day that the rapture will occur, but pre-tribs don't acknowledge that because they know that Paul taught that Jesus will destroy unbelievers on that same day, which doesn't line up with the pre-trib doctrine. They think He will take vengeance on unbelievers seven years after the rapture occurs, but Paul did not teach that.

 

[WPM]

Right. I was thinking of that passage, also, but decided not to reference it since I thought I had already made my point.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

I sometimes have tried to get pre-tribs to address verse 10 in this passage, but they rarely do. I don't know how anyone can think that the day that Jesus will come "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" will not be the day that the rapture occurs. When else will He come "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" except for the day when we are caught up to meet Him in the air to be with Him forever? It's obvious that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 refers to the day that the rapture will occur, but pre-tribs don't acknowledge that because they know that Paul taught that Jesus will destroy unbelievers on that same day, which doesn't line up with the pre-trib doctrine. They think He will take vengeance on unbelievers seven years after the rapture occurs, but Paul did not teach that.

So so true. Again, well put!

 

[WPM]

Yes, and by extension "God's Wrath," which we are saved from, means anything that takes our present mortal life and delivers us into Eternal Punishment. We are saved from *that Wrath,* and not from a 7 year period of trouble at the end of the age.

As I said, the Church has gone through antichristian-type trouble from the very beginning of the Church age. Going through this kind of trouble is *not* "God's Wrath" in the biblical sense. It is only "God's Wrath" when any death occurs to men that delivers them into Eternal Punishment.

And the death of martyrs in any time of great tribulaton does not deliver them into Eternal Punishment! Christians are delivered from Eternal Punishment the moment they are Saved, accepting Jesus as the atonement for their sins. Whether they live or die, they are free from the sentence of Eternal Punishment. This is the "Wrath of God" that we are delivered from.

When mankind undergoes global judgment at Christ's Coming, many Christians will die. In my view, Armageddon is a very short global war, alongside other largescale judgments from God. But the Christians who die in this conflagration will have experienced not "God's Wrath," but a death that leads to resurrection to Eternal Life.

When you study Armageddon in Revelation, it does not portray a battle. The wicked simply gather for battle, whereupon God pours out His final wrath.