“Your Father is the Devil”: A Radical Reading of John 8:44 in Light of Religious History

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Judas Thomas

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> “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.”
— John 8:44



1. Jesus vs. the God of This World

John 8 records one of the most shocking confrontations in the New Testament. Jesus tells the religious authorities — the experts in Scripture and tradition — that their father is not God, but the devil. He identifies this “father” as one who murders, lies, and has no truth in him.

This claim is not isolated. Throughout John’s Gospel, Jesus repeatedly says he comes from a Father who is not of this world (John 8:23), and contrasts this Father with the “ruler of this world” (John 12:31), who is to be cast out.

Paul echoes this when he describes “the god of this world” as blinding people from seeing the light of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4). These statements suggest a deep opposition between the true Father of Jesus and the dominant spiritual power of the world — which Jesus identifies as a liar and murderer.

But who, in Scripture, is described as a murderer from the beginning?


---

2. A Murderer from the Beginning?

The serpent in Genesis 3 is often retrospectively identified with Satan — but this is not in the original text. The serpent never murders or kills. He questions God’s command and brings knowledge.

The first actual act of divine punishment — leading to death — comes from God himself:

He curses Adam and Eve with mortality.

He floods the earth.

He destroys cities.

He commands genocides.

He kills children in Egypt.


Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is Satan the agent of these actions. These acts are attributed to YHWH, the national deity of Israel. From a narrative standpoint, YHWH — not Satan — is the one who brings death from the beginning.

So when Jesus refers to “your father, the devil, a murderer from the beginning,” this could be read as a critique of the violent deity portrayed in Israel’s early scriptures.


---

3. “No One Has Seen the Father” — But Moses Saw YHWH

John makes another bold theological claim:

> “No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has made him known.” (John 1:18)
“Not that anyone has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father.” (John 6:46)



These verses assert that no one has seen the true Father — except Jesus.

But this stands in clear contrast with the Hebrew Bible. Moses, for example, speaks with YHWH face to face (Exodus 33:11). The elders of Israel are said to have seen the God of Israel on Mount Sinai (Exodus 24:10). The prophets hear and see YHWH in visions.

If Jesus says that no one has ever seen the Father, then whom did they see?

The implication is startling: they saw a different being — not the true Father, but a lower, partial, or even deceptive divine figure. This idea is consistent with many early Christian Gnostic readings and some radical interpretations of John’s Gospel.


---

4. Elohim and YHWH: Father and Deceiver?

This tension is deepened by the structure of Genesis itself, which opens with two different creation accounts.

In Genesis 1, the world is created by Elohim, a transcendent creator who brings order and calls creation “very good.”

In Genesis 2–3, the narrative shifts to YHWH, who forms man from dust, imposes a prohibition, hides knowledge, and punishes disobedience with death.


These are not the same deity. Scholarly consensus (e.g., the Documentary Hypothesis) sees these stories as coming from different sources — with Elohim connected to the Priestly tradition and YHWH to the Yahwist.

Historical Insights

Ancient Near Eastern scholarship reveals:

Elohim derives from El, the high god of the Canaanite pantheon — a distant, paternal creator.

YHWH appears later, possibly beginning as a volcano and war god of the Shasu nomads, associated with fire, storms, and holy mountains (e.g., Sinai).


These two traditions — El and YHWH — were eventually fused in Israelite religion. But the violent, jealous, and punitive traits of YHWH remained distinct from the unseen Father Jesus describes.


---

5. A Radical Conclusion: The God of Jesus vs. the God of Religion

John 8:44, when taken seriously, is not just an insult aimed at corrupt authorities. It is a theological accusation: that the god they worship — the one who demands obedience, punishes sin with death, and operates through fear — is not the true Father.

This is consistent with Jesus’ radical ethic of mercy, forgiveness, and love — which stands in stark contrast to the laws and violence of much of the Old Testament.

This view was not foreign to early Christians. The Gnostics, especially those influenced by Johannine thought, taught that Jesus revealed a higher God — a God of love and truth — in contrast to the Demiurge, the lesser god of this world.


---

Final Thought

Jesus did not come to reinforce existing religious power. He came to reveal a new Father, one who had never been truly seen before, whose nature is pure light, without darkness.

When he says “your father is the devil,” he may be speaking not only to a group of Pharisees, but to all religious systems that perpetuate fear, control, violence, and death in the name of God.
 
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Wick Stick

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> “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.”
— John 8:44

1. Jesus vs. the God of This World

John 8 records one of the most shocking confrontations in the New Testament. Jesus tells the religious authorities — the experts in Scripture and tradition — that their father is not God, but the devil. He identifies this “father” as one who murders, lies, and has no truth in him.

This claim is not isolated. Throughout John’s Gospel, Jesus repeatedly says he comes from a Father who is not of this world (John 8:23), and contrasts this Father with the “ruler of this world” (John 12:31), who is to be cast out.

Paul echoes this when he describes “the god of this world” as blinding people from seeing the light of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4). These statements suggest a deep opposition between the true Father of Jesus and the dominant spiritual power of the world — which Jesus identifies as a liar and murderer.
The theological point of John 6-8 is about HOW to determine who is a true child of Abraham. Jesus' doctrine is that those who ACT like Abraham are his true sons. Those who DON'T believe like Abraham are false.

Paul later expands on this idea (Rom 9) to say that the false sons will be "broken off" the tree, and the believing sons will be "graffed in."

But who, in Scripture, is described as a murderer from the beginning?
It's just Cain - he's the first murderer in the Bible.

2. A Murderer from the Beginning?

The serpent in Genesis 3 is often retrospectively identified with Satan — but this is not in the original text. The serpent never murders or kills. He questions God’s command and brings knowledge.
You're right. The prophet Ezekiel actually identifies the "guardian angel" who blocks the path back into Eden as Satan. The snake, while not innocent, is not Satan in this story.
The first actual act of divine punishment — leading to death — comes from God himself:

He curses Adam and Eve with mortality.

He floods the earth.

He destroys cities.

He commands genocides.

He kills children in Egypt.
True - and disturbing. The modern church reconciles these by trying to justify them. They probably ought to look a little harder into them. We dismiss Marcion, but he had a point.
Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is Satan the agent of these actions. These acts are attributed to YHWH, the national deity of Israel. From a narrative standpoint, YHWH — not Satan — is the one who brings death from the beginning.
This isn't true... there are multiple points at which Satan is portrayed as God's agent, and other where God and Satan are attributed the same works.
So when Jesus refers to “your father, the devil, a murderer from the beginning,” this could be read as a critique of the violent deity portrayed in Israel’s early scriptures.
That view was popular in the late 2nd - 3rd centuries, but it's unlikely for the NT authors. They quote Deuteronomy and Genesis extensively, and they cite them as the works of an authentic prophet.

I believe this is a reference to Cain - and his descendants the Kenites. Moses married a Kenite woman, and the Kenite tribe had an alliance with Israel from the time of the Exodus, down to the time of Saul. Kenite lineage persisted within southern Israel into NT times, and some would say even into the present.

It is no accident that Jesus presents Israel as a combination of wheat and tares, true and false. Nor that Paul declares that not all Israel is actually... Israel. Both were addressing the false Israelites withing the community - the sons of Edom (not Jacob) that claimed to be Israel in the 1st century (and beyond). "Jacob I loved, but Esau I have hated."
3. “No One Has Seen the Father” — But Moses Saw YHWH

John makes another bold theological claim:

> “No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has made him known.” (John 1:18)
“Not that anyone has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father.” (John 6:46)

These verses assert that no one has seen the true Father — except Jesus.

But this stands in clear contrast with the Hebrew Bible. Moses, for example, speaks with YHWH face to face (Exodus 33:11). The elders of Israel are said to have seen the God of Israel on Mount Sinai (Exodus 24:10). The prophets hear and see YHWH in visions.

If Jesus says that no one has ever seen the Father, then whom did they see?

The implication is startling: they saw a different being — not the true Father, but a lower, partial, or even deceptive divine figure. This idea is consistent with many early Christian Gnostic readings and some radical interpretations of John’s Gospel.
That's a real problem, but... your solution isn't how Judaism reconciles the issue... and Judaism doesn't even have regard for the NT text. Judaism regards Exodus 31 as figurative - it assigns God's "body parts" as aspects of the deity. Read aish.com on the Kaballah for more info.
4. Elohim and YHWH: Father and Deceiver?

This tension is deepened by the structure of Genesis itself, which opens with two different creation accounts.

In Genesis 1, the world is created by Elohim, a transcendent creator who brings order and calls creation “very good.”

In Genesis 2–3, the narrative shifts to YHWH, who forms man from dust, imposes a prohibition, hides knowledge, and punishes disobedience with death.

These are not the same deity. Scholarly consensus (e.g., the Documentary Hypothesis) sees these stories as coming from different sources — with Elohim connected to the Priestly tradition and YHWH to the Yahwist.
Your information here is... out-of-date. Gen 1 is a work of Amorite poetry - it necessarily centers itself on the chief Amorite deity El and his conflict with the Amorite gods of the sea.

Yahweh, by contrast, is a deity of the Edomites to the south. He is the patron god of Teman, both Biblically and historically.
Historical Insights

Ancient Near Eastern scholarship reveals:

Elohim derives from El, the high god of the Canaanite pantheon — a distant, paternal creator.

YHWH appears later, possibly beginning as a volcano and war god of the Shasu nomads, associated with fire, storms, and holy mountains (e.g., Sinai).

These two traditions — El and YHWH — were eventually fused in Israelite religion. But the violent, jealous, and punitive traits of YHWH remained distinct from the unseen Father Jesus describes.
There you go. That's more like it.

How do those converge? The Shema makes Yahweh out to be the chief of the Elohim, perhaps even equivalent ALL of the Elohim, with the idea of emanationism reconciling the two.
5. A Radical Conclusion: The God of Jesus vs. the God of Religion

John 8:44, when taken seriously, is not just an insult aimed at corrupt authorities. It is a theological accusation: that the god they worship — the one who demands obedience, punishes sin with death, and operates through fear — is not the true Father.

This is consistent with Jesus’ radical ethic of mercy, forgiveness, and love — which stands in stark contrast to the laws and violence of much of the Old Testament.

This view was not foreign to early Christians. The Gnostics, especially those influenced by Johannine thought, taught that Jesus revealed a higher God — a God of love and truth — in contrast to the Demiurge, the lesser god of this world.
What you're describing is the difference between the Edomite concept of God and the Israelite concept.

The former requires absolute adherence to a strict Law. The Edomite seeks to establish his righteousness before God by his law-keeping.

The latter holds no idea of his own righteousness. He knows that he has been guilty, early and often, of straying from the path. He relies on the mercies of God for his salvation.

"Jacob have I loved, but Esau I have hated." -Paul
Final Thought

Jesus did not come to reinforce existing religious power. He came to reveal a new Father, one who had never been truly seen before, whose nature is pure light, without darkness.

When he says “your father is the devil,” he may be speaking not only to a group of Pharisees, but to all religious systems that perpetuate fear, control, violence, and death in the name of God.
Agreed! I don't quite agree with your identification of what that religious system is, but your overarching point is... on point.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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It's just Cain - he's the first murderer in the Bible.

Not according to Jesus:

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.





The serpent never murders or kills. He questions God’s command and brings knowledge.

Jesus said satan was a murderer so he is!

Remember when the Lord said in His Word that "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer"? - 1 John 3:15

Well, satan is definitely a hater so according to Jesus this makes him a murderer. Jesus said it, case closed!

And no, the devil did not "bring knowledge", he lied to Adam and Eve and they became corrupt by following the devil and rejecting the Lord.





Judaism doesn't even have regard for the NT text

Who cares? That's their problem.

The New Covenant is of the Lord and those that won't join Him go to hell.




Your information here is... out-of-date. Gen 1 is a work of Amorite poetry - it necessarily centers itself on the chief Amorite deity El and his conflict with the Amorite gods of the sea.

Yahweh, by contrast, is a deity of the Edomites to the south. He is the patron god of Teman, both Biblically and historically.

That's all doctrines of devils
 

Davy

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> “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.”
— John 8:44



1. Jesus vs. the God of This World

John 8 records one of the most shocking confrontations in the New Testament. Jesus tells the religious authorities — the experts in Scripture and tradition — that their father is not God, but the devil. He identifies this “father” as one who murders, lies, and has no truth in him.

This claim is not isolated. Throughout John’s Gospel, Jesus repeatedly says he comes from a Father who is not of this world (John 8:23), and contrasts this Father with the “ruler of this world” (John 12:31), who is to be cast out.

Paul echoes this when he describes “the god of this world” as blinding people from seeing the light of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4). These statements suggest a deep opposition between the true Father of Jesus and the dominant spiritual power of the world — which Jesus identifies as a liar and murderer.

But who, in Scripture, is described as a murderer from the beginning?


---

2. A Murderer from the Beginning?

The serpent in Genesis 3 is often retrospectively identified with Satan — but this is not in the original text. The serpent never murders or kills. He questions God’s command and brings knowledge.

The first actual act of divine punishment — leading to death — comes from God himself:

He curses Adam and Eve with mortality.

He floods the earth.

He destroys cities.

He commands genocides.

He kills children in Egypt.


Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is Satan the agent of these actions. These acts are attributed to YHWH, the national deity of Israel. From a narrative standpoint, YHWH — not Satan — is the one who brings death from the beginning.

So when Jesus refers to “your father, the devil, a murderer from the beginning,” this could be read as a critique of the violent deity portrayed in Israel’s early scriptures.


....

WOW! You actually TRIED... to turn the guilt of MURDER upon our HEAVENLY FATHER! You will definitely have to answer to Jesus for that lie!

Jesus is pointing to the SONS OF CAIN in John 8, for CAIN was the very first murderer, NOT GOD. CAIN murdered his brother Abel. Those JEW blind scribes and Pharisees were NOT descended from Abraham, even though they said so, and Jesus kind of agreed with them, but obviously did not mean it, because He said their father was the DEVIL.


The pagan Canaanites and leftover sons of Cain crept in especially among the Jews of the "house of Judah" per Old Testament history. That's who Jesus was speaking to in John 8, and is why they also wanted to MURDER Jesus.
 
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XtraPercept

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Greetings friend, I love Bible study! I enjoy looking into the deep things of the Holy One. You do, too! But let us sharpen each other.

The most important concern to me in your post is this confusion, the name of the Holy One. How did the Master refer to His Father? He did not use an acronym associated with some form of sacredness! We were given only One Name under heaven by which we may be saved!

Jesus!

The Father identified Himself to Moses as "I Am the I Am" or "I Am who I Am" or "I Am that I Am," each of which have great and profound meaning, but none of which will lead us to salvation. A four letter word is a curse word for a reason.

This is the beginning of confusion! Looking to other voices for Truth when He has one divine voice which He demonstrates fully in Scripture. Look at every translation that attempts to name the Father (aside from LORD, all others are derivatives of the Spirit but without the Life and meaning) and you will find it lacks alignment with superior translations. You must investigate thoroughly to extract the truth from lies!

When you eat a meal, only the nourishment builds your body while the waste is expelled. You bite, you chew, and you swallow, but your body, by your nature, handles the separation of what is useful from what must be expelled. You retain what must be expelled and it causes you illness. And yet, you don't hold it by your own power anymore than you digest at will. You have so much wonderful truth, but keep chewing before you swallow!

Jesus did not come to change religion, He came to complete it! Religion was always about relationship with God, which is why so many imitations spawned. But His was the true religion, full of symbolism and meaning and truth to foretell of the coming Messiah who would complete religion to restore the relationship it represented. It pointed to propitiation to and from a loving Father who was separated from His precious children.

God is our Father, who has willed us to Life and willed the world to death. Nothing escapes His mighty hand. Not a hair falls without His notice and not a sparrow flies independent of His Life. The truth ALWAYS makes sense, ALWAYS lines up, ALWAYS correlates with all other definitive truth. And the Master never has, never does, and never will speak falsehood. All of His promises are TRUE!
 

Luther7

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WOW! You actually TRIED... to turn the guilt of MURDER upon our HEAVENLY FATHER! You will definitely have to answer to Jesus for that lie!

Jesus is pointing to the SONS OF CAIN in John 8, for CAIN was the very first murderer, NOT GOD. CAIN murdered his brother Abel. Those JEW blind scribes and Pharisees were NOT descended from Abraham, even though they said so, and Jesus kind of agreed with them, but obviously did not mean it, because He said their father was the DEVIL.


The pagan Canaanites and leftover sons of Cain crept in especially among the Jews of the "house of Judah" per Old Testament history. That's who Jesus was speaking to in John 8, and is why they also wanted to MURDER Jesus.
Yes! Yes! You got it. Cain, Canaanites, Babylonians, and other pagan people mixed in with the Israelites. They were commanded by God to destroy them all FOR THAT VERY REASON.
The Pharisees became Rabbis and we have the same situation today. Except now the non- jew is being " destroyed" morally and financially by these parasites.
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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Yes! Yes! You got it. Cain, Canaanites, Babylonians, and other pagan people mixed in with the Israelites. They were commanded by God to destroy them all FOR THAT VERY REASON.
The Pharisees became Rabbis and we have the same situation today. Except now the non- jew is being " destroyed" morally and financially by these parasites.

So you want to go out and kill them all, right?

The reformers were known to whack people if they did not follow the false doctrines the reformers were peddling.

The catholics did the same
 
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Luther7

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As a Christian I would never wish harm on anyone. I'm surprised you would say something like that. This is where the disconnect comes in, when someone hears something so against what they've been indoctrinated against.
 

lforrest

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WOW! You actually TRIED... to turn the guilt of MURDER upon our HEAVENLY FATHER! You will definitely have to answer to Jesus for that lie!

Jesus is pointing to the SONS OF CAIN in John 8, for CAIN was the very first murderer, NOT GOD. CAIN murdered his brother Abel. Those JEW blind scribes and Pharisees were NOT descended from Abraham, even though they said so, and Jesus kind of agreed with them, but obviously did not mean it, because He said their father was the DEVIL.


The pagan Canaanites and leftover sons of Cain crept in especially among the Jews of the "house of Judah" per Old Testament history. That's who Jesus was speaking to in John 8, and is why they also wanted to MURDER Jesus.
Flesh and blood lineage does not equate to spiritual lineage. Because flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Cain himself was born from the same mother as Abel. But Cain tended towards unrighteousness, because his spiritual father was Satan.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Cain tended towards unrighteousness, because his spiritual father was satan.

Meaning he set himself in agreement with the one who is in opposition to God which of course is satan.

That sort of thing goes on today among those who legitimately got born again but afterward they regressed back in to walking after the flesh which is setting themselves in agreement with the one who is in opposition to God which of course is satan.
 

Davy

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So you want to go out and kill them all, right?

The reformers were known to whack people if they did not follow the false doctrines the reformers were peddling.

The catholics did the same

Study Jesus' parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13. The "tares" are about those crept in unawares foreigners. Jesus in the parable showed to wait until harvest time to separate them, lest one gets one of the good wheat (good seed, true Judah) by mistake.

Yet the fact that Lord Jesus showed us about them in that parable, and in other parts of His Word, reveals we are... to know about them, and recognize them by their fruit, and not allow them to have power over the congregation. No wonder the five Churches in Asia had problems, because they didn't know about, or recognize the "synagogue of Satan" working among them, while the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia did know, and because of that were able to keep Christ's Word (teach it as written).
 

Davy

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Flesh and blood lineage does not equate to spiritual lineage. Because flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Cain himself was born from the same mother as Abel. But Cain tended towards unrighteousness, because his spiritual father was Satan.
Yes I agree that the devil was Cain's spiritual father. I don't believe the serpent seed doctrine.

Yet I very much believe what God's Word says in The Old Testament regarding Israel's early history with pagan idol worshipers creeping in among Israel. That was the main sin which Solomon himself was guilty of, allowing his many idol worshiping wives to bring their idol worship in among Israel. God even warned Solomon about it twice, but Solomon would not listen.

God's commandment in Deuteronomy 20 to wipe out a certain group of specific Canaanite nations involved other reasons though than just idol worship. Those Canaanite nations housed the hybrid giant race, which God did not create. God commanded the Israelites to totally wipe those specific nations out, not leave alive anything that breaths. But for the nations around them, to make peace.
 
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lforrest

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Yes I agree that the devil was Cain's spiritual father. I don't believe the serpent seed doctrine.

Yet I very much believe what God's Word says in The Old Testament regarding Israel's early history with pagan idol worshipers creeping in among Israel. That was the main sin which Solomon himself was guilty of, allowing his many idol worshiping wives to bring their idol worship in among Israel. God even warned Solomon about it twice, but Solomon would not listen.

God's commandment in Deuteronomy 20 to wipe out a certain group of specific Canaanite nations involved other reasons though than just idol worship. Those Canaanite nations housed the hybrid giant race, which God did not create. God commanded the Israelites to totally wipe those specific nations out, not leave alive anything that breaths. But for the nations around them, to make peace.
Israel disobeyed and they had to deal with the infiltration of pagan culture, including idolatry. Wiping them out would have eliminated those foreign temptations.

There were no righteous nations anywhere on earth, so their neighbors could have been anyone and God would order them destroyed. Israel was in conflict constantly due to foreign leadership serving the whims of demons, as they still do today everywhere.
 

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> “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.”
— John 8:44



1. Jesus vs. the God of This World

John 8 records one of the most shocking confrontations in the New Testament. Jesus tells the religious authorities — the experts in Scripture and tradition — that their father is not God, but the devil. He identifies this “father” as one who murders, lies, and has no truth in him.

This claim is not isolated. Throughout John’s Gospel, Jesus repeatedly says he comes from a Father who is not of this world (John 8:23), and contrasts this Father with the “ruler of this world” (John 12:31), who is to be cast out.

Paul echoes this when he describes “the god of this world” as blinding people from seeing the light of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4). These statements suggest a deep opposition between the true Father of Jesus and the dominant spiritual power of the world — which Jesus identifies as a liar and murderer.

But who, in Scripture, is described as a murderer from the beginning?


---

2. A Murderer from the Beginning?

The serpent in Genesis 3 is often retrospectively identified with Satan — but this is not in the original text. The serpent never murders or kills. He questions God’s command and brings knowledge.

The first actual act of divine punishment — leading to death — comes from God himself:

He curses Adam and Eve with mortality.

He floods the earth.

He destroys cities.

He commands genocides.

He kills children in Egypt.


Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is Satan the agent of these actions. These acts are attributed to YHWH, the national deity of Israel. From a narrative standpoint, YHWH — not Satan — is the one who brings death from the beginning.

So when Jesus refers to “your father, the devil, a murderer from the beginning,” this could be read as a critique of the violent deity portrayed in Israel’s early scriptures.


---

3. “No One Has Seen the Father” — But Moses Saw YHWH

John makes another bold theological claim:

> “No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has made him known.” (John 1:18)
“Not that anyone has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father.” (John 6:46)



These verses assert that no one has seen the true Father — except Jesus.

But this stands in clear contrast with the Hebrew Bible. Moses, for example, speaks with YHWH face to face (Exodus 33:11). The elders of Israel are said to have seen the God of Israel on Mount Sinai (Exodus 24:10). The prophets hear and see YHWH in visions.

If Jesus says that no one has ever seen the Father, then whom did they see?

The implication is startling: they saw a different being — not the true Father, but a lower, partial, or even deceptive divine figure. This idea is consistent with many early Christian Gnostic readings and some radical interpretations of John’s Gospel.


---

4. Elohim and YHWH: Father and Deceiver?

This tension is deepened by the structure of Genesis itself, which opens with two different creation accounts.

In Genesis 1, the world is created by Elohim, a transcendent creator who brings order and calls creation “very good.”

In Genesis 2–3, the narrative shifts to YHWH, who forms man from dust, imposes a prohibition, hides knowledge, and punishes disobedience with death.


These are not the same deity. Scholarly consensus (e.g., the Documentary Hypothesis) sees these stories as coming from different sources — with Elohim connected to the Priestly tradition and YHWH to the Yahwist.

Historical Insights

Ancient Near Eastern scholarship reveals:

Elohim derives from El, the high god of the Canaanite pantheon — a distant, paternal creator.

YHWH appears later, possibly beginning as a volcano and war god of the Shasu nomads, associated with fire, storms, and holy mountains (e.g., Sinai).


These two traditions — El and YHWH — were eventually fused in Israelite religion. But the violent, jealous, and punitive traits of YHWH remained distinct from the unseen Father Jesus describes.


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5. A Radical Conclusion: The God of Jesus vs. the God of Religion

John 8:44, when taken seriously, is not just an insult aimed at corrupt authorities. It is a theological accusation: that the god they worship — the one who demands obedience, punishes sin with death, and operates through fear — is not the true Father.

This is consistent with Jesus’ radical ethic of mercy, forgiveness, and love — which stands in stark contrast to the laws and violence of much of the Old Testament.

This view was not foreign to early Christians. The Gnostics, especially those influenced by Johannine thought, taught that Jesus revealed a higher God — a God of love and truth — in contrast to the Demiurge, the lesser god of this world.


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Final Thought

Jesus did not come to reinforce existing religious power. He came to reveal a new Father, one who had never been truly seen before, whose nature is pure light, without darkness.

When he says “your father is the devil,” he may be speaking not only to a group of Pharisees, but to all religious systems that perpetuate fear, control, violence, and death in the name of God.
Many may not realize that the early "Jews" were polytheists first.
 

Luther7

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Flesh and blood lineage does not equate to spiritual lineage. Because flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Cain himself was born from the same mother as Abel. But Cain tended towards unrighteousness, because his spiritual father was Satan.
Agree. Every characteristic of God, His people (Christians) and His Word is mirrored by Satan. You will find parallels everywhere. But what I didn't understand up until a few years ago that Just as Christ knows His sheep, those truly saved, Satan knows his own " helpers" throughout history. They are a mirror image of true believers except they are indwelt with evil spirits instead of the Holy Spirit.

We do the will of our Father, but they do THEIR father's will. While we are being redeemed, they are being indoctrinated. We have a once for all sacrifice in Jesus Christ, but to this very day they make sacrifices to receive power. And so on and so on. But the point is this: it's not a random chaotic group of misfits that have brought the world to this point in time. We live in their society and don't even realize it.

And yes, it is true that a false religion is a false religion. But only one was created in Babylon with it's close ties to the lineage of Cain, when he began to spread his spiritually evil seed, which continues to this day. Remember, Jesus told us they say they are jews " and are not". They stole the identity of the Old Testament Israelites.
 
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Davy

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There were no righteous nations anywhere on earth, so their neighbors could have been anyone and God would order them destroyed.

Now that... I do not... believe.

God didn't just randomly pick those nations of Canaan He named for total destruction in Deut.20:17. That's an idea Satan's children have implanted in some Churches that reject the following Bible Scripture as written...

Gen 6:4
4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
KJV


The Anak was one of the proper names for a group of the hybrid-giants in the lands of Canaan...

Num 13:27-33
27 And they told him, and said, "We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.

28
Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.

29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.

30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, 'Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.'

31 But the men that went up with him said, 'We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.'

32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, 'The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof;
and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.'
KJV


The following Isaiah 26:14 verse is one of 2 places in The Bible which most versions did not properly translate the proper name of Rephaim, which is a proper name for the giants...

Isa 26:14
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased,
they shall not rise: therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
KJV

Isa 26:14
14 Dead — they live not,
Rephaim, they rise not, Therefore Thou hast inspected and dost destroy them, Yea, Thou destroyest all their memory.
YLT

Isa 26:14
14 Let not the dead live,
let not the giants rise again: therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, and best destroyed all their memory.
Douay-Rheims


The way to tell the above verse definitely proves... the existence back then of a hybrid race of giants which God did not create, is how that verse says those Rephaim shall not 'rise', i.e., resurrect from the dead.

We know per God's Word that even the wicked flesh dead will have their own "resurrection of damnation", but not those hybrid-giants. Satan caused a group of his angels to come to earth and create those Rephaim giants in order to try and taint the 'seed' of the Woman which Christ would be born through. That's why Gen.6 says Noah was perfect in his generations, meaning in his race from Adam.

That is the deeper... reason why God told the Israelites to completely destroy those specific nations in the land of Canaan, but leave the other nations around them alone.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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As a Christian I would never wish harm on anyone. I'm surprised you would say something like that. This is where the disconnect comes in, when someone hears something so against what they've been indoctrinated against.

And yet those following the so called "reformers" are following false teachers who thought God wanted them to kill those who rejected the false doctrine they taught. Same goes for the catholics
 

Davy

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And yet those following the so called "reformers" are following false teachers who thought God wanted them to kill those who rejected the false doctrine they taught. Same goes for the catholics

Sounds like you are making false accusations against Christians, particularly the Spanish Inquisition maybe?

Back in the early centuries, Christian leaders did go after those who practiced witchcraft and the black arts, and burned many of them at the stake. It began in old Spain, if I recall, at El Escorial north of Madrid, a Catholic monastery.

But they didn't come up with that on their own...

Ex 22:18
18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
KJV

Lev 19:26
26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.
KJV

Lev 19:31
31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
KJV

Lev 20:6
6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set My face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
KJV

Lev 20:27
27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
KJV

Deut 18:10-12
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
KJV
 

amigo de christo

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WOW! You actually TRIED... to turn the guilt of MURDER upon our HEAVENLY FATHER! You will definitely have to answer to Jesus for that lie!

Jesus is pointing to the SONS OF CAIN in John 8, for CAIN was the very first murderer, NOT GOD. CAIN murdered his brother Abel. Those JEW blind scribes and Pharisees were NOT descended from Abraham, even though they said so, and Jesus kind of agreed with them, but obviously did not mean it, because He said their father was the DEVIL.


The pagan Canaanites and leftover sons of Cain crept in especially among the Jews of the "house of Judah" per Old Testament history. That's who Jesus was speaking to in John 8, and is why they also wanted to MURDER Jesus.
They love their sin and want to try and turn the T RUE GOD into what they see as satan.
Folks want to hold rainbows and many other sins as well . AS YOU well wrote THEY DARN SURE will have to answer
For that . This generation IS DONE with the bible my friend . THEY love another god now .
And that god seems to be fine with THEIR so called lustful hearts desires .
 
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