Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

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Hillsage

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JESUS Says otherwise!!! = Matt 22:23-33

Enoch is ALIVE Today but not in his flesh body.

@Hillsage

ALWAYS trust JESUS
Not sure why you tagged me above....:contemplate: Actually this thread is moving so fast I'm a bit lost. :Broadly: I can't keep all the chess pieces straight on 'the board'. Oh well, I'll just throw something in here which you may or may not agree with because you mentioned soul sleep.

I believe we are triune beings. Upon death I believe souls and bodies both go to the grave. But the spirits of ALL return to the Father God from which they came.

ECC 12:7 Then shall the dust/FLESH return to the earth/GRAVE as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I do believe the soul sleeps in the grave until the day of judgment where all the graves are opened for all to appear before the 'judgment/bema seat of Christ', to be judged for all that was done in the body/flesh.

JOH 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29 and come forth,...


Lazarus' body was dead, but his soul was asleep. This concept wasn't even understood by the apostles, so it's no surprise that many today believe as you do. But I guess we both agree that Enoch's spirit is alive and with the Father from which the spirits of all men/flesh were birthed from.

But lets not derail this thread. :pfite:
 

Hiddenthings

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@David in NJ

Here is what Jesus was teaching the Saducees:

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to whom the promise was given, did not see its fulfillment in their lifetime (Acts 7:5).

Abraham was a man of faith who wandered the hills, “looking for a city” (Heb 11:10). He believed in the resurrection, demonstrated when he offered his son Isaac (Heb 11:19; Gen 22:8-14), declaring to his son, “God will provide the sacrifice.” Abraham foresaw the coming of Christ (John 8:56), the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29), yet he knew he would not partake of it until after his death. He did not receive the promise in his lifetime, but he trusted fully that it would be fulfilled in the future, just as all the faithful do!
 

Hiddenthings

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Lazarus' body was dead, but his soul was asleep. This concept wasn't even understood by the apostles, so it's no surprise that many today believe as you do. But I guess we both agree that Enoch's spirit is alive and with the Father from which the spirits of all men/flesh were birthed from.
The spirit is simply the breath that departs from us at death; there is no awareness or consciousness beyond that point.
 

Lizbeth

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sls = satan's little season
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you believe this?
TRUTH = John 18:35-36
Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
I believe He is talking about old covenant versus new covenant. The first covenant was earthly, with earthly blessings and victories....God going out with the armies of Israel. The new covenant is not earthly but spiritual....it is a spiritual army now fighting spiritual battles to overcome spiritual enemies, no longer earthly battles fighting earthly pagan kingdoms.
 

Hiddenthings

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I believe He is talking about old covenant versus new covenant. The first covenant was earthly, with earthly blessings and victories....God going out with the armies of Israel. The new covenant is not earthly but spiritual....it is a spiritual army now fighting spiritual battles to overcome spiritual enemies, no longer earthly battles fighting earthly pagan kingdoms.
This is incorrect but your intentions are honorable.
 

Lizbeth

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He had to have been translated to some other place or else what Jesus said in the following verse would not have been true.

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

He didn't say "no one except Enoch", so He must have been including Enoch as never having gone into heaven.
Paradise perhaps.
 

Hillsage

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This is missing---and he died. No wonder Hebrews 11:5 records what it does. It's because it agrees with the Genesis 5 account pertaining to Enoch. Why then are some of you trying to pit these 2 accounts against each other rather than having them agree with each other?
GEN 5:23 Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.

You're right 'and he died' is missing. But so is 'what died' and 'what lived on' after those 365 years? I believe the body and the soul of Enoch were in the grave but his spirit was not?
One thing to keep in mind. We are never told where God translated Enoch to. Therefore, he may have been translated to some place other than heaven, for all we know?
The phrase he was not concernng Enoch is used of death in the Old Testament. We read, for example ;

Jer. 31:15, “….A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not“.

Job 7:21, “…..for now shall I sleep in the dust; but Thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Now let's consider the Greek word translated “see” in Heb. 11:5, in the phrase, ”that he/ENOCH should not see death”.
That Greek word is “eidon”. In the appendix (#133) of the Companion Study Bible we see the following definition: “eidon= to see: implying not the mere act of looking, but the actual perception.….”.

To better understand this definition, let us consider the Webster’s Dictionary definition of the word “perceive” which is; “Perceive: awareness of….”. If we are to take into due consideration the definition of the Greek word translated “see” we must understand this phrase to say that Enoch should not be aware of death. Obviously then, he had been not aware of his own death. This does not tell us that Enoch did not die, only that Enoch was not aware of his death when it happened. Much like a person who dies while under anesthesia during an operation, is not aware of his death.
 
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Hillsage

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The spirit is simply the breath that departs from us at death; there is no awareness or consciousness beyond that point.
Got a verse to support your 'opinion' above?

JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead,
On the cross Jesus FIRST surrendered the Christ spirit unto the Father.

LUK 23:46* Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And HAVING said this (PAST TENSE) he breathed his last.

His spirit departed and death took over his body and that last death breath of air EXPIRED out after his spirit was already gone.
When Jesus raised the little girl from the dead, WHAT came back FIRST? Her first breath of air? Or was it the spirit of life which caused her brain to function to tell the diaphram to contract to take her first breath of air since dying?

LUK 8:54 But taking her by the hand he called, saying, "Child, arise."
55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once;


Did Jesus call for air in her lungs or the spirit of life.

We need to know when to define the greek word PNEUMA literally or symbolically. Context determines definition.

4151 pneuma: a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by ANALOGY or FIGURATIVELY a spirit,
 

Zao is life

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This is the verse I was referring to:

Heb 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

So it's apparent that the old covenant hadn't yet vanished away when this was written.

Sister, read @ewq1938 's post HERE because it's true.

Think with the mind of Christ, relying on the Holy Spirit. Not with your own mind and the minds of those humans who want you to believe as they do. Look at what the Bible is actually saying:

Love | Forgiveness | Belief


John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

Perish: G622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Condemned: G2919 κρίνω krino properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

Judged | condemned

John 3

18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

Matthew 26
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 1
17 For the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

The law = the old covenant. The old covenant = the law. It was based on the law. It passed when Jesus died on the cross and the veil in the temple was torn in two.


Compare:

2 Corinthians 5
17 So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

and:

John 3
18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Romans 5
12 As by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Atonement:

Romans 5

10 When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The death of Jesus:

Mark 15

37 And letting out a loud voice, Jesus expired.
38 And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

The veil:


19 Therefore, my brothers, having boldness to enter into the Holy of Holies by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He has consecrated for us through the veil, that is to say, His flesh.

THE HOUR THE OLD COVENANT PASSED AND THE NEW COVENANT CAME

John 12

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

John 3

18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

The New had come - the old had passed:

Matthew

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat, this is My body.
27 And He took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink all of it.
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The hour in which the Old Covenant passed away and the new covenant came is the hour the world was judged for its sins when Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world. The Jews are not judged differently to the rest of mankind.


Romans 1
17 For the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.


Final judgment IS JUDGMENT FOR ALL. Judged by works:

Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Judged by their works when Jesus returns - the law (old covenant) was given to mankind through the Jews because by the law is the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20).

Romans 1
17 For the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Preterist and Part Preterists must stop contradicting God by asserting that the old covenant remained intact until AD70 and that the judgment of the Jews who rejected Christ came at that time. God does not contradict Himself.
ALL WHO REJECT CHRIST ARE ALREADY CONDEMNED. When Christ returns, only then will there be a final judgment of the living and the dead.
 
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Hiddenthings

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Got a verse to support your 'opinion' above?

JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead,
On the cross Jesus FIRST surrendered the Christ spirit unto the Father.
Did you see the context? James is using nature to prove a spiritual truth.

Faith without action is vain and lifeless, just as a body without breath is dead.

You don't believe we already possess immortality, do you?
 

David in NJ

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Not sure why you tagged me above....:contemplate: Actually this thread is moving so fast I'm a bit lost. :Broadly: I can't keep all the chess pieces straight on 'the board'. Oh well, I'll just throw something in here which you may or may not agree with because you mentioned soul sleep.

I believe we are triune beings. Upon death I believe souls and bodies both go to the grave. But the spirits of ALL return to the Father God from which they came.

ECC 12:7 Then shall the dust/FLESH return to the earth/GRAVE as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I do believe the soul sleeps in the grave until the day of judgment where all the graves are opened for all to appear before the 'judgment/bema seat of Christ', to be judged for all that was done in the body/flesh.

JOH 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29 and come forth,...


Lazarus' body was dead, but his soul was asleep. This concept wasn't even understood by the apostles, so it's no surprise that many today believe as you do. But I guess we both agree that Enoch's spirit is alive and with the Father from which the spirits of all men/flesh were birthed from.

But lets not derail this thread. :pfite:
#1 - You were tagged because that is the ministry of the Holy Spirit

#2 - Rev 20:4 and Matthew 22:23-33 is DIRECTLY Connected with the discussion we are having.

#3 - 'soul sleep' is a manmade doctrine that is contrary to TRUTH
 

Hiddenthings

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LUK 23:46* Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And HAVING said this (PAST TENSE) he breathed his last.
The distribution of Jesus’ personal belongings and responsibilities: his purse given to Judas (John 13:29), his garments divided among the soldiers (John 19:23), the care of his mother entrusted to John (John 19:27), his spirit (breath) returned to God (Luke 23:46), and his body delivered to Joseph (John 19:38).

The answer is given to you in the verse!
  • “Spirit” is πνεῦμά (pneuma) – his life force or “spirit”, breath is returned to God.
  • “Breathed” is ἐξέπνευσεν (exepneusen) – literally “exhaled” or “expired.” It comes from the verb ἐκπνέω (ekpneo), which literally means “to breathe out.” In context, it describes the act of dying, when the breath (or life force) leaves the body.
At that moment Christ ceased to exist!
 

Hiddenthings

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@Hillsage

Did you notice it mentions "A LOUD VOICE" this inconsistent with death from exhaustion.

He gave his last breath - all of himself in that moment!
 

David in NJ

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The distribution of Jesus’ personal belongings and responsibilities: his purse given to Judas (John 13:29), his garments divided among the soldiers (John 19:23), the care of his mother entrusted to John (John 19:27), his spirit (breath) returned to God (Luke 23:46), and his body delivered to Joseph (John 19:38).

The answer is given to you in the verse!
  • “Spirit” is πνεῦμά (pneuma) – his life force or “spirit”, breath is returned to God.
  • “Breathed” is ἐξέπνευσεν (exepneusen) – literally “exhaled” or “expired.” It comes from the verb ἐκπνέω (ekpneo), which literally means “to breathe out.” In context, it describes the act of dying, when the breath (or life force) leaves the body.
At that moment Christ ceased to exist!
Friend, you just spoke forth a HERESY and a very serious one at that!
 
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ewq1938

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Like Enoch, translated that he should not see death..? ok yes, thanks, I was thinking of the scripture in 1 Cor 15 that says the body is not quickened except it die. In any case the point stands that we will not have any need of this earth when our bodies are glorified and no longer earthly...as Jesus said we will be like the angels.

This current Earth is needed up until it is replaced by a NHNE etc but that is after the GWTJ. Jesus returns to this current Earth as well.
 
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Zao is life

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I think it could mean that, but scripture indicates that the sun will no longer exist at that point

Scripture says they have no need for the sun. It does not say there will be no sun.

Isaiah 66
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Revelation 21
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 22
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

The sun and moon are frequently used metaphorically for the shepherds of the flock of God through prophetic scripture.

So, I see no reason to to see verses 4-6 as a parentheses in that case.

Verses 4 through 6 also tell us when the thousands years commences. When Jesus would begin to reign with His followers. I believe scripture is clear that He began to reign after His resurrection (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6).

Scripture is also clear that the kingdoms of this world will have become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Messiah when the 7th trumpet sounds and that He shall reign the the ages of the ages (Rev 11:15).

Scripture also teaches that when He returns He will hand all authority given Him during this age back to the Father and God will be all things in all:

1 Corinthians 15
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Scripture also teaches that Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, asking

Matthew 6
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, to the age. [aion]. Amen.

Compare "to the age" in Matthew 6:13 with "to the ages of the ages" in Rev 11:15 and ask yourself why the New Testament makes a distinction between His kingdom that has come and His kingdom that is coming.

- but don't ask me why, please. I just believe scripture. I never wrote it. Ask yourself why.

I see a link between Revelation 20:4-6 and some of those verses, also. I'm afraid that you just do not communicate clearly enough in a way that I can comprehend sometimes.

Good. Because those verses linked to Rev 20:4 are "end-of-the age immediately preceding the return of Christ" verses. The timing for it is the end of the age and the mark of the beast and the number of His name. Following this those who did not received his mark or the number of his name are seen alive and reigning with Christ (Rev 20:4) - and its the first resurrection.

It gives the timing for the commencement of the thousand years because they could not possibly have been beheaded for refusal to receive his mark or the number of his name before the close of this age.
 

Hiddenthings

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LUK 8:54 But taking her by the hand he called, saying, "Child, arise."
55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once;
Can you see the Masters teaching here?

“Arise”: A parable of baptism, sleeping in death, awakened by the Master’s touch, hearing the command: “Arise and walk!”

Breath returned!