Let's examine Revelation 20:4 yet again.

[Hiddenthings]

Friend, you just spoke forth a HERESY and a very serious one at that!

Because you did not read the quote carefully, am I the one being accused of heresy? Your reply is an argument from silence!

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus either breathed his last breath, or he did not - if you say he did not then who is speaking heresy? You have a messiah who never died!

Imagine that!

 

[ewq1938]

Scripture says they have no need for the sun. It does not say there will be no sun.

Yep. The Sun will always exist:

Psalms 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

1. His name shall endure for ever
2. his name shall be continued as long as the sun
3. = the sun shall endure forever

If the name of God exists forever, then the sun shall as well.

Additionally:

Psa 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
Psa 72:5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

Psa_89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

2Pe_3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Could new heavens mean the sun will be able to last forever? I believe so!


Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more your light by day, nor for brightness shall the moon give you light; but the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.
Isa 60:20 Your sun shall no more go down, nor your moon withdraw itself; for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of mourning shall be ended.

According to these verses, the sun and moon will definitely exist forever.

Scripture is also clear that the kingdoms of this world will have become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Messiah when the 7th trumpet sounds and that He shall reign the the ages of the ages (Rev 11:15).

Scripture also teaches that when He returns He will hand all authority given Him during this age back to the Father and God will be all things in all:

1 Corinthians 15
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Scripture also teaches that Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, asking

Matthew 6
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, to the age. [aion]. Amen.

Compare "to the age" in Matthew 6:13 with "to the ages of the ages" in Rev 11:15 and ask yourself why the New Testament makes a distinction between His kingdom that has come and His kingdom that is coming.

- but don't ask me why, please. I just believe scripture. I never wrote it. Ask yourself why.

It's just an internal spiritual kingdom within believers VS. a literal and physical kingdom that exists externally, and will envelope all existing Earthly kingdoms. One is here now, the second is coming.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus either breathed his last breath, or he did not - if you say he did not then who is speaking heresy? You have a messiah who never died!

Imagine that!

JESUS last breath was from the FLESH BODY that GOD had prepared for Him by which HE came into the world = Hebrews 10:5

"Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me."

His Spirit remained in Him as HE is SPIRIT.

 

[Hiddenthings]

JESUS last breath was from the FLESH BODY that GOD had prepared for Him by which HE came into the world = Hebrews 10:5

"Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me."

His Spirit remained in Him as HE is SPIRIT.

It saddens me when a believer holds to error and then misquotes Scripture out of ignorance.

But I imagine the day David when you will truly know him who choose not to go free!

In the Hebrew text the phrase reads, “My ears you have opened”, literally “dug” or “bored.” This is an unmistakable allusion to Exodus 21:5–6 (cf. Deuteronomy 15:16–17), where a bondservant, out of love for his master, refuses freedom and willingly binds himself for lifelong service. The enacted parable is deeply beautiful: a voluntary, permanent devotion to a beloved lord, symbolised by a pierced ear at the door of the master’s house, expressing a readiness to hear, obey, and submit to every command.

Jesus Christ is the perfect fulfilment of this figure, 1the true servant of Yahweh (Isa. 42:1,6; 49:1–7). Yet he is also the husband of his spiritual bride and the father of spiritual children (Isa. 53:10), all of whom were given to him by his Master (John 17:2,6). When faced with the choice between personal release and voluntary servitude, Christ chose love over liberty. In Gethsemane and upon the cross he effectively declares, “I will not go out free or alone.” Thus, in symbol, his ear is opened at the door of his Master’s house, showing perfect attentiveness to the Father’s will (Psa. 40:8; cf. Heb. 10:7).

This raises the question: why does Hebrews quote the passage as “A body you prepared for me”? Like the other Old Testament citations in Hebrews, this comes from the Septuagint (LXX), whose translators have insightfully interpreted the Hebrew idiom. The Greek word sōma (“body”) carries a secondary meaning: slave. Under Roman law a slave was regarded as little more than property, a body, a tool, an instrument of another’s will (cf. Rom. 6:6; 7:24; 8:23; Rev. 18:13; Jude 1:9).

Thus, the LXX does not distort the Hebrew meaning but faithfully conveys it: Christ did not merely offer obedience, he offered his whole self. His “prepared body” signifies total submission, lifelong service, and loving bondage to the will of God.

Needless to say, the quote you thought you had, you do not have, and you are still left holding error.

When you accept that Jesus truly ceased to exist in death, and then re-examine every passage you thought you understood in that light the result is nothing short of seismic. What once seemed settled is overturned, assumptions collapse, and familiar texts suddenly speak with an entirely different clarity. To call it a shock to the system would be a vast understatement.

 

[Zao is life]

How do you define the word immortal or immortality? Here is a definition from a dictionary:

adjective: living forever; never dying or decaying

Besides the fact that Adam learned that living forever; never dying or decaying did not mean that he would not die if he rebelled against the Word of God (despite Satan telling him he would not die),

God is the one who created all things and God is able to destroy anything He created.

The word does not mean "Immortal God like the immortal God, Jesus Christ" - that's only how you have it defined it.

1 Timothy 6
16 He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

John 5
26 For just as the Father has life in himself, thus he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

You seem to believe immortality (being alive - zao- forever in non-decaying bodies) for the created man and woman and their descendants = being "Immortal God like the immortal God, Jesus Christ", having eternal life - zoe - in ourselves enabling us to live | be alive - zao - forever

- without GOD providing us with that eternal life [zoe] which He alone possesses in Himself.

Revelation 1:17-18
"Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that is alive / that liveth [zao], and was dead; and, behold, I am alive [zao] to the ages of the ages, Amen; and I have the keys of hades and of death."

1 Timothy 6
16 He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

I agree with this definition of the word

You agree with what you think is the definition of the word - but not with what that definition truly means.

I agree with both the definition of the word and with what that definition truly means.

Jesus alone possesses His own immortality. The creature (created human beings and their descendants) will not possess the immortality that we will be given through the death and resurrection of the Son of man (Jesus)

- neither did Adam possess his immortality - though he was immortal before he rebelled against the Word of God, nor will we possess what we have been given in Christ - who alone possesses it in Himself.

You apparently believe that someone with immortality can be destroyed/annihilated.

You apparently believe that we will be "Immortal God like the immortal God, Jesus Christ"

- and you apparently believe that the Almighty God who created us is not omnipotent

- because you believe He is not capable of destroying both soul and body in the gehennah of fire if an immortal whose immortality has been given to him only in Christ - rebels against the Word of God.

Notice I used the word "apparently" twice there since I am not completely certain if I'm correct about how you would define the word.

It's okay because in so doing you make it clear how you define the word - which is not what the word means.

The word "immortal" does not mean "impossible for God to destroy both soul and (immortal) body in the fire of gehennah or by fire coming down from God out of heaven".

The word does not mean "Immortal God like the immortal God, Jesus Christ" - that's only how you have it defined it.

So, you are comfortable having a view all to yourself. It's not uncommon to see that kind of thing on this forum. It makes no sense to me, though. Does God ever reveal truth to just one person? No, He does not.

Just another attempt on your part to imply that what I say is not biblical (which is a usual thing for you with those who disagree with you).

The problem for your implications is that whatever truth God reveals in the scriptures He reveals to all - and what I say is IN scripture and TAKEN FROM scripture

- but some things you are blinded to

- partly because you choose to believe you will be "Immortal God like the immortal God, Jesus Christ"

- and so not even the Almighty omnipotent God who created our ancestors after creating all things, can destroy you - once you have risen from the dead through the power of Christ's resurrection,

and maintain eternal life IN CHRIST

- which is the source of all life and all living - IN HIM - who is THE WORD OF GOD .

Brother, you will only maintain it IF you do not join in the rebellion against the Word of God when Satan is released one last time following the resurrection to deceive mankind with a lie.

God is able to destroy anything He created with fire.

 

[Zao is life]

It's His rightly divided word we need to believe do you not agree? When Jesus was talking about leaven, did He commend His disciples for believing He was talking about bread?

Why is it that it's always those who corrupt the word, not rightly dividing the Word, always use this expression about "rightly dividing the Word" in such a way as to imply that their corruption is "rightly dividing the Word?"

The expressions and favorite quotes those who corrupt scripture, not rightly dividing scripture frequently use when making their own assertions, are very predictable.

@David in NJ

 

[David in NJ]

It saddens me when a believer holds to error and then misquotes Scripture out of ignorance.

But I imagine the day David when you will truly know him who choose not to go free!

In the Hebrew text the phrase reads, “My ears you have opened”, literally “dug” or “bored.” This is an unmistakable allusion to Exodus 21:5–6 (cf. Deuteronomy 15:16–17), where a bondservant, out of love for his master, refuses freedom and willingly binds himself for lifelong service. The enacted parable is deeply beautiful: a voluntary, permanent devotion to a beloved lord, symbolised by a pierced ear at the door of the master’s house, expressing a readiness to hear, obey, and submit to every command.

Jesus Christ is the perfect fulfilment of this figure, 1the true servant of Yahweh (Isa. 42:1,6; 49:1–7). Yet he is also the husband of his spiritual bride and the father of spiritual children (Isa. 53:10), all of whom were given to him by his Master (John 17:2,6). When faced with the choice between personal release and voluntary servitude, Christ chose love over liberty. In Gethsemane and upon the cross he effectively declares, “I will not go out free or alone.” Thus, in symbol, his ear is opened at the door of his Master’s house, showing perfect attentiveness to the Father’s will (Psa. 40:8; cf. Heb. 10:7).

This raises the question: why does Hebrews quote the passage as “A body you prepared for me”? Like the other Old Testament citations in Hebrews, this comes from the Septuagint (LXX), whose translators have insightfully interpreted the Hebrew idiom. The Greek word sōma (“body”) carries a secondary meaning: slave. Under Roman law a slave was regarded as little more than property, a body, a tool, an instrument of another’s will (cf. Rom. 6:6; 7:24; 8:23; Rev. 18:13; Jude 1:9).

Thus, the LXX does not distort the Hebrew meaning but faithfully conveys it: Christ did not merely offer obedience, he offered his whole self. His “prepared body” signifies total submission, lifelong service, and loving bondage to the will of God.

Needless to say, the quote you thought you had, you do not have, and you are still left holding error.

When you accept that Jesus truly ceased to exist in death, and then re-examine every passage you thought you understood in that light the result is nothing short of seismic. What once seemed settled is overturned, assumptions collapse, and familiar texts suddenly speak with an entirely different clarity. To call it a shock to the system would be a vast understatement.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Zao is life]

I'll tell you what is absurd. The idea that only Luke recorded the answer to the disciples question about when the temple buildings would be destroyed, as you believe. It is absolutely absurd to claim, as you do, that Matthew and Mark did not record Jesus's answer to that question.

What is absolutely absurd is to believe that Jesus was telling them about

- the tribulation and persecution that the stones of the old testament temple building were to endure when that temple was destroyed.

- which is what all those are saying who assert that Jesus was answering them about the destruction of that temple they had asked Him about

- ignoring the fact that He was answering them by telling them about the persecution and tribulation that the living stones of the New Testament Temple (GOD'S Temple) were to endure.

What's also absurd is to assert that it's absurd to mention the fact that Matthew and Mark;s records only record Jesus answering them by telling them about the persecution and tribulation that the living stones of the New Testament Temple (GOD'S Temple) were to endure.

Tell me, at the time when Jesus was giving the Olivet Discourse, was the physical temple still considered the holy place by the disciples?

The question is not what they considered the holy place. The question is what He considered the holy place after telling the Jews in the temple that their house is left to them desolate and on the Temple Mount telling His disciples that it would be destroyed.

The last supper when Jesus told them about His blood and the New Covenant, had not even occurred yet - though it was just hours away.

The disciples had no way of knowing that the temple that He had just a few minutes before told them about was not the Temple of God or the holy place any more

- but that following His death - which was just hours away - and the tearing of the veil when He died, and following His resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the church on the Day of Pentecost - THEY would be His Temple, and the holy place.

- But JESUS knew it - and BY THE TIME THE OLD TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED THEY WOULD KNOW IT TOO, AND WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD HIS WORDS - even decades before the old temple was destroyed, they knew it was no longer the holy place.

Stop thinking with the mind of a child when it comes to the things Christ said and taught.

Are your arguments not childish?

Indeed they are:

If there was a prophecy saying that The White House would be destroyed in the future, but it's name was changed to The White Mansion before it was destroyed, would the prophecy not be fulfilled when the building was destroyed just because the name of the building was changed?

Copy @Davidpt

 

[Hiddenthings]

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Shooting blanks now David...I'll leave it there as you are clearly not interested in truth

 

[Zao is life]

No interpretation necessary = It is exactly as JESUS Stated

First he (mis) interprets it himself by isolating it from the rest of what the New Testament teaches about the kingdom of Christ and the coming kingdom of Christ, ignoring facts such as for example Jesus teaching us to pray to the father, asking Him "Thy kingdom come" on a daily basis,

then he ask you how you interpret it when you just believe what Jesus stated because as you said above, No interpretation necessary = It is exactly as JESUS Stated.

 

[Hiddenthings]

sls = satan's little season
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you believe this?
TRUTH = John 18:35-36
Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

“Of this world” ek kosmou — means out of or derived from this present order of things. Christ is not saying that his kingdom has no relation to the world, but that it does not originate from, nor draw its authority or power from, the existing human system. “My kingdom does not derive its power from this present order of things.”

Instead, his kingship comes from heaven, a reality entirely beyond Pilate’s (and Caiaphas’s) comprehension. Christ received his royal authority out of heaven, not from men (Luke 19:11–12; Psalm 2:8; Daniel 7:14, 27). The world is indeed the sphere of his rule, but it is not the source of his authority.

He does not deny that the world will be subject to his reign; rather, he affirms that his authority is not of human origin.

 

[Zao is life]

The issue, David, is confirmation bias. It’s a clear example of people approaching the Word with preconceived, and often false beliefs, and then attempting to force those notions onto the text rather than allowing Scripture to speak for itself.

Well i AGREE with exactly what you said here = AMEN

It's amazing just how many things people in these forums say when pointing a finger at the man in their mirror.

 

[David in NJ]

Shooting blanks now David...I'll leave it there as you are clearly not interested in truth

How can WORD that was God and became flesh "cease to exist".

Only His flesh body died on the Cross.

SEE = "FATHER into your Hands I commit MY Spirit"

 

[Hiddenthings]

How can WORD that was God and became flesh "cease to exist".

Only His flesh body died on the Cross.

SEE = "FATHER into your Hands I commit MY Spirit"

All things derive from God's Logos... even Christ!

Christ is the result of God's “Logos” in ‘thought’ and ‘reasoning’

 

[Zao is life]

Absolutely. If Enoch is not alive at all, as @Hiddenthings falsely believes, then God is not his God. But, God IS his God since He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jesus died so that He could become the Lord of the dead and of the living.

Romans 14:9
"For this reason Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive, not dead]."

Christ is Lord of the dead and of the living but the dead have not risen from the dead yet.

 

[Zao is life]

EXACTLY

God is NOT the God of the dead, for HE is the GOD of the LIVING

Christ died so that He could become Lord of the dead and of the living.

Romans 14:9
--- "For this reason Christ died [apothnesko] and rose again from the dead [anistemi], and lived again [anazao], so that he may be the Lord of both the dead [nekros] and living [zao: those who are alive, not dead]." ---

The dead are not risen from the dead yet.

 

[Zao is life]

Friend, you just spoke forth a HERESY and a very serious one at that!

He conveniently left out:

His soul went to hades (Acts 2:27) where by the Spirit He preached to imprisoned spirits (1 Peter 3:18-19).

 

[Hiddenthings]

He conveniently left out:

His soul went to hades (Acts 2:27) where by the Spirit He preached to imprisoned spirits (1 Peter 3:18-19).

Hades to mean grave and I can tell your inference on 1 Peter 3 is incorrect. You should look at that section again!

 

[Hiddenthings]

You have before you a genuine opportunity to understand the original Gospel, yet you continue to cling to concepts drawn from mythology rather than Scripture. It is difficult to comprehend how one can come so close to the truth and still hold fast to ideas that have no biblical foundation. The tragedy is not ignorance, but the refusal to let Scripture correct inherited assumptions.