My personal eclectic view

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1stCenturyLady

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There is no such thing as replacement theology. That's an offensive term that dispensationalists made up to misrepresent the beliefs of those who oppose dispensationalism. Who exactly do you think is being replaced in this so-called replacement theology and who replaces them?
I know that.
I know what the discussion is about. I'm adding to the discussion by showing you that a good number of Israelites have been saved the past almost 2,000 years, which means you should not be acting as if that is not the case and that none of them will be saved until some future time.
I'm not. I know that there are some who have been saved individually. I never said otherwise. But Paul knows the nation as a whole is blind and says so in verse 7.

Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”


Who is "the rest"? Paul also says this blindness is not permanent but only until the last Gentile that wants to be saved has come into the Church. THEN ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.

You act as if the nation of Israel has not been blinded by God. Are you blind also?
 
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1stCenturyLady

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For some reason, you reject Paul's definitions of "all Israel" and "of Israel". Post 91

Why?

Each nation including Israel is comprised of its individuals.

God deals with the individuals of each nation.

National Israel is comprised of the individuals in "all Israel" i.e. saved believers; and "of Israel" i.e. unsaved unbelievers.

There are no others.

God deals with them individually.
cc: @Spiritual Israelite.

I see you both believe that "the fullness of the Gentiles" is also talking about Jews, and that "all Israel" will be complete when the last GENTILE comes into the Church. You both are describing and believe in Replacement Theology whether you are aware of it or not. It believes that God's promises to the nation of Israel
are now only to the Church known as "Spiritual Israel," and He will not fulfill them to the nation of Israel because at present the nation of Israel does not believe in the Son of God. Well they will.
 
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covenantee

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cc: @Spiritual Israelite.

I see you both believe that "the fullness of the Gentiles" is also talking about Jews, and that "all Israel" will be complete when the last GENTILE comes into the Church. You both are describing and believe in Replacement Theology whether you are aware of it or not. It believes that God's promises to the nation of Israel
are now only to the Church known as "Spiritual Israel," and He will not fulfill them to the nation of Israel because at present the nation of Israel does not believe in the Son of God. Well they will.
Isaiah 10
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Romans 9
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Well, that's not the nation.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Jesus gave preliminary signs representing the buildup to the fall of the Temple. Obviously, they were all to take place in his generation, since the fall of the Temple took place in 7 AD.

Certainly, Jesus spoke of things that transcended his own generation. But they were dealing with things extraneous to the main subject, which was the fall of Jerusalem. Since the disciples were confused about how Jesus could say Jerusalem would fall, he explained to them that these things have to precede the coming of his Kingdom.

So there were two things going on, and not just one. 1st, he explained to them about the main subject that he introduced--the fall of the Temple. When? It would take place in their own generation, preceded by warning signs, like indications of Jewish corruption and signs of divine judgment for that corruption.

2nd, he indicated that instead of the Kingdom coming immediately there would be a long Jewish exile and punishment, preceding the coming of the Kingdom. As to when the Kingdom itself is coming, he would not say. He only said that preparation for it begins in our own lifetimes because what we do contributes to it.
Luke focuses on teh fall of Jerusalem, the Matthew part of the discourse focuses on the other two questions, "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age".

Your concluding Rome was the abomination does not fit history nor the biblical narrative unless you spiritualize it all! The abomination is singular not an army! And Daniel described the man as the one who on the wings of abomination, HE (singular) shall make it desolate. It is a man who enters the temple as Paul declared in Thess.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Isaiah 10
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Romans 9
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Well, that's not the nation.
I'm not talking about the dead but the living at that time after the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES HAS COME IN. Therefore, do you believe that during the Great Tribulation anyone will be become Christians, or not? If not, fine. If yes, who?
 

covenantee

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I'm not talking about the dead but the living at that time after the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES HAS COME IN. Therefore, do you believe that during the Great Tribulation anyone will be become Christians, or not? If not, fine. If yes, who?
Yes, it will be a living remnant. Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27

Not the nation.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Yes, it will be a living remnant. Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27

Not the nation.
But in comparison to every Hebrew Jew ever born and died, the remaining Jews on the earth at the beginning of the GT would be a remnant. Do you see that?
 

Randy Kluth

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No, the AoD in Daniel 12:11 is time of the end, Daniel 12:9.
As I said, I believe Dan 12 summarizes the 2 most important future events of the book, because Daniel was concerned and confused both. Daniel is 1st told about the end times 3.5 year of Antichrist. But then he is told about a completely different event, the rise and fall of Antiochus 4--a 1290 day reign of terror against Israel.

This 2nd event identifies with the prophecy of Antiochus 4 mentioned in Dan 8 and in Dan 11. It is quite obvious to me that those passages, including the one in Dan 12.11, has to do with him.

The 1st event mentioned in Dan 12.7 obviously has to do with the endtime because Daniel had just been told about the great distress of NT Israel, which I believe is the NT Jewish Diaspora. That brings us up to the endtime, when Antichrist will reign for 1260 days, or 3.5 years. That also was mentioned earlier in the book of Daniel, ch. 7.

I'm not stating this dogmatically because it's subject to interpretation, has been quite controversial, and has to be decided individually what God intended to say. So, it's on you to get it right. This is my view only...

God does seem to tolerate speculative interpretations of the Scriptures as a way of exploring, learning, and modifying, if necessary. But I think He is less tolerant of those with pride of position, or with pride of tradition. Hopefully, we will remain among those "willing to learn?"
 

covenantee

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But in comparison to every Hebrew Jew ever born and died, the remaining Jews on the earth at the beginning of the GT would be a remnant. Do you see that?
The remnant will be saved and identified through their faith in Christ.

Not by their DNA.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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The remnant will be saved and identified by their faith in Christ.

Not by their DNA.
So, will Jews be saved before the Great Tribulation, or during? And will Gentiles be saved during the Great Tribulation or not? Don't knock DNA; that is of God.
 

covenantee

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So, will Jews be saved before the Great Tribulation, or during? And will Gentiles be saved during the Great Tribulation or not? Don't knock DNA; that is of God.
Jews and Gentiles have been saved through faith since Calvary.

They will continue to be saved through faith until Christ returns.

Does DNA save?
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Jews and Gentiles have been saved through faith since Calvary.

They will continue to be saved through faith until Christ returns.

Does DNA save?
Not all the way to when Christ returns according to Scripture. At least, not for Gentiles. Don't you read?
 

Douggg

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This 2nd event identifies with the prophecy of Antiochus 4 mentioned in Dan 8 and in Dan 11. It is quite obvious to me that those passages, including the one in Dan 12.11, has to do with him.
Antiochus IV was not time of the end. Daniel 12:11 is time of the end, Daniel 12:9.

Daniel 11:35 is the transition verse to the time of end.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

So next, Daniel 11:36-Daniel 12:13 is all time of the end activities.

Daniel 11:36 picks up the time of the end activities with (the little horn > prince who shall come > the Antichrist > the revealed man of sin > the beast king) person, in his beast king stage. In his beast king stage, he will be claiming to be God. And that is says in verse 37 he has no regards for the God of his fathers - indicates that the person will be a Jew.

He has to be a Jew in order to go through the Antichrist stage (stage 3 on the chart below).




5 stages.jpg
 

Randy Kluth

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Antiochus IV was not time of the end. Daniel 12:11 is time of the end, Daniel 12:9.
We've already been through this. The "time of the end" is interpreted differently by different interpreters. Many scholars find the phrase to refer to the end of a dynasty or to the end of a monarchy or to the end of a particular period of trouble. The "end" does not have to refer to the eschaton!

It seems quite obvious to me that you're trying to force a particular end-time application of the phrase "time of the end" into an historical application where that interpretation is utterly impossible. The phrase must mean "time of the end of a period of trouble."

I'll tell you how I know this. Dan 8 plainly spells out who the historical figures are, indicating Media, Persia, and Greece. And then they are said to represent a "time of the end." These kingdoms existed in OT history, and are not to be projected into the eschaton! The "time of the end" must therefore mean the time of the end of a series of prophetic events, the end of a biblical drama. The prophecy itself, in fact, declares the "end" to represent the end of the reigns of these kings.

Dan 8.19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.
23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”


So this is the history of ancient Media, Persia, Greece, Alexander, and Antiochus 4. It concerns the distant future from Daniel's point of view, but it represented the time of the end of Antiochus' reign, in the series of kings from Medo-Persia to Greece.
Daniel 11:35 is the transition verse to the time of end.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

So next, Daniel 11:36-Daniel 12:13 is all time of the end activities.

Daniel 11:36 picks up the time of the end activities with (the little horn > prince who shall come > the Antichrist > the revealed man of sin > the beast king) person, in his beast king stage. In his beast king stage, he will be claiming to be God. And that is says in verse 37 he has no regards for the God of his fathers - indicates that the person will be a Jew.

He has to be a Jew in order to go through the Antichrist stage (stage 3 on the chart below).
The entire end portion of ch. 11 in Daniel is about Antiochus, sort of repeating what is said in Dan 8 about Antiochus. It is about the end of his kingdom. Rome is, I believe, the 4th kingdom that emerges as Antiochus falls and the Greek Kingdom goes into decline. That's when Michael is raised up to protect Israel because the Roman Period will be the time of "great tribulation" for the Jewish People, and God wants to ensure their survival.

Jesus quoted that "great tribulation" as he predicted the fall of Jerusalem to begin this period of time--a great exile that will last longer than any previous Israeli judgment. It will finally end with their restoration, which appears to be simultaneous with the resurrection of the saints from the dead.
 

Douggg

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The entire end portion of ch. 11 in Daniel is about Antiochus, sort of repeating what is said in Dan 8 about Antiochus. It is about the end of his kingdom. Rome is, I believe, the 4th kingdom that emerges as Antiochus falls and the Greek Kingdom goes into decline. That's when Michael is raised up to protect Israel because the Roman Period will be the time of "great tribulation" for the Jewish People, and God wants to ensure their survival.
Take a look at Daniel 11:45. Antiochus IV died in Persia (modern day Iran). And Antiochus IV was not time of the end. So Daniel 11:45 is not about Antiochus IV.

Daniel 1145 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

between the seas.jpg
 

1stCenturyLady

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Why do you say that?

Romans 11:25-27
2 Thes. 2:8-12
Revelation 2 and 3, and 12 and 13 (the woman is Israel, and 12:17 are "spiritual Israel" called the rest of her offspring - Gentile Christians)

When the "fullness of the Gentiles comes in" the blindness will be lifted from Israel and all Israel will be saved. This is the promise to national Israel, not just "spiritual Israel" as is taught in antisemitic parts of the Church. The Great Tribulation for the Christian is for the nominal to be perfected and "overcome" and prove themselves worthy by martyrdom. This applies to Thyatira/RCC and Orthodox; Sardis/Reformed and Laodecia/in name only lukewarm. Only the Philadelphians who are on fire for God and keep his entire word/not unbelieving cessationists who do not believe in parts of the New Covenant about the power of the Holy Spirit, will be protected, whether by rapture or the protecting hand of God throughout the GT who remain and are alive at the second coming.
 
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