Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[Aunty Jane]

Text flooding from a cult member - a Jehovah Witness. Your sectarian interpretations are not arguments, they are just your opinions.

Text flooding? You mean reading what you don’t want to hear? It’s hard to do that with your fingers in your ears...sorry to be the bearer of Jesus’ gospel (the real good news).
....the Bible is a big book....explanations cancel out errors. No one is forcing you to read my posts.
Any who are interested in the truth can make up their own minds....don’t you trust Jesus? He said that no one can take a single, genuine disciple out of his hand.
What are you worried about?

You are not an orthodox Christian

Thank God! Orthodoxy isn’t a mark of any truth. What was once viewed as unorthodox can become accepted over time to become orthodox.....if you tell a lie often enough and long enough it can become truth to the misled masses. Have you yourself fallen for ancient lies masquerading as Bible truth?

Do you believe that the health system has your best interests at heart? Who replaced Orthodox medicine with unorthodox medicine that is now accepted everywhere as orthodox, despite the fact that it cures nothing....and charges a fortune for its “side effect” laden “medicines”.....curing disease is a bad business model.....treatments are so much better, guaranteeing you as a customer for the rest of your miserable life.

so your profile label is misleading to newcomers. Individuals, sects, cults and heretics can fantasize whatever they want, but the church already solved and decided these questions long time ago and has been defending Trinity successfully for 2,000 years.

My identification is “Christian” and you are not the judge of what that means....only Jesus is my judge.

Place yourself back in the first century, raised as an Orthodox Jew and ask yourself if you would have believed a man named Jesus who just appeared on the scene one day and took the role of what appeared to be the leader of a new cult. Would you have ditched your indoctrinated Jewish beliefs and traded them for the words of a kind miracle worker who showed up the leaders of the religious system in which you were raised, to be hypocritical frauds!?

Jehovah Witnesses who originated in the 18th century in the USA and immediately failed their own prophecy about the end of the world, can hardly be trusted more than the church. Not to mention true sectarian manipulative practices used against the members who want to criticize the leaders, to leave or left the cult.

We got the timing wrong, but so did the apostles, so we didn’t feel so bad...it wasn’t our prophesy, and it still isn’t...it’s the one Jesus made, (Matt 24:1-14) and the outcome of which we still anticipate.....and besides, the Bible has always treated the coming of the Kingdom and Jesus Christ’s return as immanent....imagine if he had told us way back that it was still thousands of years into the future? Who would be still standing? There is a reason for everything....we live and learn. It’s those who live and never learn that have a problem.

As for those who defect...have you heard of Judas? Nothing stirs up resentment more that being told you are incorrect in your reasoning or actions.....ask any “ex” how they view their former partner? They often remain enemies for life. Vindictiveness is not uncommon when some cannot get their way....they get shown the door.....revenge in the form of slander usually follows.

No one is disfellowshipped from our ranks unless they are proven liars, immoral, drunkards, slanderers, apostates, and the like. If there is no acknowledgment of their wrongdoing, they are expelled from the congregation, (1 Cor 5:9-13) but the door remains open for their return....like the prodigal son, if they so wish.
It’s amazing how many do come back, chastened by the experience and happy to be back “home”.

The sob stories are a dime a dozen....if you know the rules before you enter our brotherhood, don’t complain if you want to change them and they won’t let you...just leave....we have no issue with those who just want out, even though it saddens us to lose them.....they are adults who make their own decisions.
We will take issue with those whose actions and speech are divisive and slanderous. They are not welcome.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I say there is only one - the good news of Jesus Christ. And there are billions of witnesses. What say you?

What is the gospel? There’s a good place to start....it translates as “good news”....so what is “the good news of the kingdom” that Jesus said would be “preached in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations,” before the foretold “end” would come? (Matt 24:14)

In the Lord’s Prayer Jesus taught us to pray for God’s kingdom to “come”, and for his “will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
So now we have to know what God’s Kingdom is....it is ‘coming’ to us...we are not going to it.

A kingdom is a King and a domain over which he rules.
So we know that it is God’s Kingdom and that he has installed his son as King on his throne. He is ruling under his Father’s authority...how do we know this? He told us in Matthew 28:18....
“Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” If Jesus was God then why would he need all authority to be “given” to him? He would already have it. His authority was also to be seen in heaven, where the Father is still the Supreme authority, The Father is still the God of Jesus. (Rev 3:12)

So what is the purpose of the “Kingdom” that Jesus said was to “come”....how does it come?
And what happens when it does? God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”...has this happened yet? Who in their right mind would think so?

The Kingdom must “come” in a way that everyone will know. What does the Bible say about that?
Daniel wrote about this in Dan 2:44, speaking of an enormous image representing world powers in succession, given to Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel was able to interpret the kings dream, and identify these world powers long before they were of importance on the world scene. Each had authority over God’s people in a period of time called “the times of the gentiles”......these gentile (non-Jewish) nation’s would have rulership over God’s nation and occupy their land.

The succession he foretold began with Babylon, then to Medo-Persia, then Greece, then Rome, and then in the time of the end, Britain which eventually became an Anglo-American dual world power. It is in the days of these last kings that God will set up his Kingdom and reestablish his rulership over mankind.

Dan 2:44 says of those last rulers....
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.”

This is what is looming as we speak...the current rulers are the last ones who will have any authority over mankind on this earth. They will be crushed out of existence and replaced with God’s rulership.

Did God have a Kingdom in the very beginning? Yes he did, and he was the King of his own domain which included heaven and a whole family of spirit sons. But with material creation it came to include human children....so God showed that he was keen to add more population to his domain...but in creating lower creatures of intelligence along with free will, there was always the risk of abuse....through disobedience. So what he did was conceal from his human creation a knowledge of evil. If they never knew evil, they would never practice it. God would shower them with only good things and their idyllic life would have lasted for all eternity, with no sickness, ageing or death to impede what was to be an amazing life in paradise on earth.

They would have satisfying work to do with bodies up to the task.....no aches and pains to slow them down or to make their work assignment a chore. And even when a project was finished, it had to be maintained so that life would be filled with enjoyable work to do....keeping what was made to be beautiful, beautiful forever.

But there in the garden was an angel who was described as a “covering cherub” or guardian posted in Eden. (Ezekiel 28:13-15, 17)
He began to envy the worship given to God by these humans.....and wanted it for himself. (James 1:13-15)
The only way to separate the humans from Jehovah, was to tempt them into disobedience and unleash something on the human race that God never intended for them to know....evil....the very opposite of God’s goodness. Being expelled from the garden they would experience right away the deprivation of being on the outside...and on cursed ground. Too late for regret....and no excuse for their actions. They had decided their own destiny.

Jehovah in his wisdom, allowed the devil to prove that he was the better ruler of humankind because it was obvious that the humans could not be told the benefits of obedience...they had to be shown the consequences of disobedience, so that the humans would learn (the hard way) the value of always obeying their Creator.

Jesus would come and give his life to redeem them from Adam’s debt of sin and death, and the kingdom in which he was installed as King, would bring the human family back to God....back to the beginning to start fresh...only then could God’s will “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.

So who are the redeemed ones? God doesn’t read labels, he reads hearts. He has given us all the information we need to navigate our way through the devil’s deceptions and become citizens of the new earth under God’s kingdom that is soon to come. Who will qualify? Only those who have obeyed the Christ in all things. He knows who they are, and will reward their faith and obedience.

Sorry it’s more that 2 paragraphs....but you know me...

 

[Hiddenthings]

In the Lord’s Prayer Jesus taught us to pray for God’s kingdom to “come”, and for his “will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
So now we have to know what God’s Kingdom is....it is ‘coming’ to us...we are not going to it.

Certainly the focus of Christ and the Saints when he returns.

 

[Beebster]

Short answer to the OP question,yes. Jesus never taught it. Why would I believe it?

Yup, what she said.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry for getting back so late.
I have been occupied with work.

Actually the question was like this in simpler words:

Do you consider the United Pentecostal Church a Christian Church?

OK Triumph...
but you're mixing me up with someone else apparently.

I don't know what the United Pentecostal Church believes.
Do they believe Jesus is God and that He always existed?

If so, then they're a Christian church.
If not, then No, they are not teaching Christianity but some other religion.

 

[HealthyShape]

Text flooding? You mean reading what you don’t want to hear? It’s hard to do that with your fingers in your ears...sorry to be the bearer of Jesus’ gospel (the real good news).
....the Bible is a big book....explanations cancel out errors. No one is forcing you to read my posts.
Any who are interested in the truth can make up their own minds....don’t you trust Jesus? He said that no one can take a single, genuine disciple out of his hand.
What are you worried about?

Thank God! Orthodoxy isn’t a mark of any truth. What was once viewed as unorthodox can become accepted over time to become orthodox.....if you tell a lie often enough and long enough it can become truth to the misled masses. Have you yourself fallen for ancient lies masquerading as Bible truth?

Do you believe that the health system has your best interests at heart? Who replaced Orthodox medicine with unorthodox medicine that is now accepted everywhere as orthodox, despite the fact that it cures nothing....and charges a fortune for its “side effect” laden “medicines”.....curing disease is a bad business model.....treatments are so much better, guaranteeing you as a customer for the rest of your miserable life.


My identification is “Christian” and you are not the judge of what that means....only Jesus is my judge.

Place yourself back in the first century, raised as an Orthodox Jew and ask yourself if you would have believed a man named Jesus who just appeared on the scene one day and took the role of what appeared to be the leader of a new cult. Would you have ditched your indoctrinated Jewish beliefs and traded them for the words of a kind miracle worker who showed up the leaders of the religious system in which you were raised, to be hypocritical frauds!?

We got the timing wrong, but so did the apostles, so we didn’t feel so bad...it wasn’t our prophesy, and it still isn’t...it’s the one Jesus made, (Matt 24:1-14) and the outcome of which we still anticipate.....and besides, the Bible has always treated the coming of the Kingdom and Jesus Christ’s return as immanent....imagine if he had told us way back that it was still thousands of years into the future? Who would be still standing? There is a reason for everything....we live and learn. It’s those who live and never learn that have a problem.

As for those who defect...have you heard of Judas? Nothing stirs up resentment more that being told you are incorrect in your reasoning or actions.....ask any “ex” how they view their former partner? They often remain enemies for life. Vindictiveness is not uncommon when some cannot get their way....they get shown the door.....revenge in the form of slander usually follows.

No one is disfellowshipped from our ranks unless they are proven liars, immoral, drunkards, slanderers, apostates, and the like. If there is no acknowledgment of their wrongdoing, they are expelled from the congregation, (1 Cor 5:9-13) but the door remains open for their return....like the prodigal son, if they so wish.
It’s amazing how many do come back, chastened by the experience and happy to be back “home”.

The sob stories are a dime a dozen....if you know the rules before you enter our brotherhood, don’t complain if you want to change them and they won’t let you...just leave....we have no issue with those who just want out, even though it saddens us to lose them.....they are adults who make their own decisions.
We will take issue with those whose actions and speech are divisive and slanderous. They are not welcome.

You did not deny what I wrote, you just claimed it is all OK. No, it is not.

 

[Lambano]

OK Triumph...
but you're mixing me up with someone else apparently.

I don't know what the United Pentecostal Church believes.
Do they believe Jesus is God and that He always existed?

If so, then they're a Christian church.
If not, then No, they are not teaching Christianity but some other religion.

Oneness Pentecostals believe Jesus is God and is eternal, but their Christology falls into the category of Sabellianism, the Modalist heresy. You can see more details in the thread I referenced, or in several similar threads initiated by the same author.

 

[Wrangler]

Sorry it’s more that 2 paragraphs....but you know me...

Yea. I stopped reading after the 3rd sentence. LOL

I answered the question in 2 sentences. You literally took 15 paragraphs! v-e-r-b-o-s-e

 

[Lambano]

We must ask questions.
We must understand our faith.

I did ask questions, starting with asking my 7th grade Sunday School teacher how the Son of God could be God. I didn't get a good answer, and I don't think he was happy that a 12-year-old would ask a question like that. I read books, and I participated in internet forum discussions. The questions won't resolve, and I don't think they're resolvable because there are some logical contradictions at the heart of it. So, ANY attempt to dive deeper into to Trinity doctrine ALWAYS leads to heresy, like that video you posted said.

I like the solution proposed by both Steve Brown and John MacArthur, two teachers I do respect: Throw out Aristotelian logic. Unfortunately, that eliminates one of the tools we have in the mental toolbox for understanding the world, or even discussing it.

Oh well. I prefer living with Mystery to living with Cognitive Dissonance, the state of having to believe as true two mutually-contradictory concepts.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did ask questions, starting with asking my 7th grade Sunday School teacher how the Son of God could be God. I didn't get a good answer, and I don't think he was happy that a 12-year-old would ask a question like that. I read books, and I participated in internet forum discussions. The questions won't resolve, and I don't think they're resolvable because there are some logical contradictions at the heart of it. So, ANY attempt to dive deeper into to Trinity doctrine ALWAYS leads to heresy, like that video you posted said.

I like the solution proposed by both Steve Brown and John MacArthur, two teachers I do respect: Throw out Aristotelian logic. Unfortunately, that eliminates one of the tools we have in the mental toolbox for understanding the world, or even discussing it.

Oh well. I prefer living with Mystery to living with Cognitive Dissonance, the state of having to believe as true two mutually-contradictory concepts.

We don't have to understand anything.
We just have to believe what Christianity teaches.
It teaches that Jesus is God.
But there are not two Gods.
So some explanation must be offered.
The Trinity is it.


Also, why does anything God does have to be logical?
It IS logical...it's just that we don't understand everything.

John 1:1
John 1:14

That's all you need.

PS You asked your 7th grade Sunday School Teacher a simple question.
Surprised she couldn't answer it.
I used to teach Catechism in the CC (till recently - long story).
Most Catechists don't know much theology.
Humans can only do their best.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You did not deny what I wrote, you just claimed it is all OK. No, it is not.

Anyone who wants to take the time to read what I wrote in response to your bigoted assertions will understand why I explained the truth behind those empty claims. Anyone wishing to believe what you said without hearing the other side of the story, is welcome to do so. Because what you said had another side, and both sides are now out there for anyone whose interested in the truth.

You didn’t address anything....just claimed that it’s not OK....in whose opinion?

I am a student and teacher of the Bible, not church theology.....Most people don’t know that there is a vast difference....are you one of them?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yea. I stopped reading after the 3rd sentence. LOL

I answered the question in 2 sentences. You literally took 15 paragraphs! v-e-r-b-o-s-e

When I ask a question, I appreciate detail in the answer....I don’t just want to know “what”....I have to know “why”. It has to mesh with the rest of the Bible, and it has to be logical...our logic is God-given as we are made in his image. Nothing he does is illogical or contradictory....which is why I had such a big problem growing up in the church system. Nothing made logical sense until I studied the Bible itself, without theology putting up road blocks that I could not navigate. Ditch theology and the road blocks disappear.

If you ask me a question....and you did....please don’t complain about the detail in my answers. You know I will give you the whole story.

 

[Wrangler]

When I ask a question

As I said, I stopped reading after the 3rd sentence.

I don’t just want to know “what”....I have to know “why”.

Students fail tests for not answering the question. The question was WHAT not WHY. Brevity is the soul of wit. Did you ever hear that?

 

[Aunty Jane]

As I said, I stopped reading after the 3rd sentence.

If you know that I never answer in 3 paragraphs, why did you ask...”what say you?” Silly man....

Students fail tests for not answering the question. The question was WHAT not WHY. Brevity is the soul of wit. Did you ever hear that?

That might pertain to any other avenue of knowledge as a subject in a university or college course, where tests are carried out to ascertain the level of knowledge retained by the student. But as far as the Bible is concerned there is no graduation, and the test at the end is life or death. That makes this avenue of study something very different.....the test at the end will show if one has taken this life giving knowledge to heart or simply retained bits of Scripture to prove a point. That is the difference between theology and Bible study....where is the knowledge retained?

If “brevity is the soul of wit”...tell me where Jesus taught with brevity...his explanations were often in detailed parables so that the audience to whom he preached would understand the deeper things at their level. Brevity is for small children with a short attention span, or for those to whom knowledge is boring.

The subject matter to me is never boring.....and brevity would fail to answer all my questions. That is just the way I roll...what say you?

 

[Wrangler]

If you know that I never answer in 3 paragraphs, why did you ask...”what say you?” Silly man....

Yea, I’m being silly..

Do you thinks we are in Revelation 6? A pastor said the 3rd nor we of the apocolypse was released in July of 24.

 

[Wrangler]

But as far as the Bible is concerned there is no graduation, and the test at the end is life or death.

I do believe reaching people EFFECTIVELY is included in the test.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I do believe reaching people EFFECTIVELY is included in the test.

That is an interesting way to put it....how did Jesus teach his disciples to reach people effectively?

Se sent them out by two’s into every village where he was going to preach....(Luke 10:1-3)

He told them....
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12  When you enter the house, greet the household. 13  If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14  Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.”

So how were these ‘deserving’ or ‘worthy’ ones found? Paul answers.....
“And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.” (Acts 5:42)

“while I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.” (Acts 20:20)

What was the best way to spread the message of the Christ, so that no one was missed? Remember this was a life or death message.....how do emergency services alert people to a looming natural disaster? They go “house to house” so that they don’t miss anyone. You can’t assume that people have their TV on or that they are connected to the internet...many older people are not, and for others, service is poor and they have continual internet drop outs.

If you take your Christianity seriously, you will out there obeying Jesus command in Matt 28:19-20.
He said he would back up this work till “the end”. (Matt 24:14)
Who are out there going door to door and being hated and rejected by the majority? (John 15:18-21)

What did it mean in the first century to “shake the dust off your feet” if your message was rejected by the householder?

“Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.” (1 Tim 4:16)

Do you love people enough to go door to door with this important message? It’s a command, not just a recommendation....paying “constant attention to your teachings” is a responsibility...one that saves yourself and those who listen to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is an interesting way to put it....how did Jesus teach his disciples to reach people effectively?

Se sent them out by two’s into every village where he was going to preach....(Luke 10:1-3)

He told them....
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12  When you enter the house, greet the household. 13  If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14  Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.”

So how were these ‘deserving’ or ‘worthy’ ones found? Paul answers.....
“And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.” (Acts 5:42)

“while I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.” (Acts 20:20)

What was the best way to spread the message of the Christ, so that no one was missed? Remember this was a life or death message.....how do emergency services alert people to a looming natural disaster? They go “house to house” so that they don’t miss anyone. You can’t assume that people have their TV on or that they are connected to the internet...many older people are not, and for others, service is poor and they have continual internet drop outs.

If you take your Christianity seriously, you will out there obeying Jesus command in Matt 28:19-20.
He said he would back up this work till “the end”. (Matt 24:14)
Who are out there going door to door and being hated and rejected by the majority? (John 15:18-21)

What did it mean in the first century to “shake the dust off your feet” if your message was rejected by the householder?

“Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.” (1 Tim 4:16)

Do you love people enough to go door to door with this important message? It’s a command, not just a recommendation....paying “constant attention to your teachings” is a responsibility...one that saves yourself and those who listen to you.

You don't have to go door to door anymore unless you want a high position with the organization.
The rules have been changed.
Don't know why.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Do you thinks we are in Revelation 6?

In Rev 6, the apostle John describes a dramatic vision: “I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.” (Rev 6:2)
The ride of the horsemen of the apocalypse is preceded by the one on the white horse....who is Jesus Christ. It indicates that the time of his kingship has begun, and that he would complete his conquest, but first the ride of the other horsemen.

His first conquest was that of satan’s eviction from heaven, described in Rev 12:7-12. And we are seeing all things that Jesus told us look for.

This was a great relief for those in heaven but it meant “woe for the earth” because the devil was now in his last days of world rulership. His concentration would now be on the ones who have escaped the net of “Babylon the great”, satan’s greatest weapon in his attempts to lure people away from God...his world empire of false worship. We are told to “get out of her” if we do not want to share in her punishments. (Rev 18:4-5)

A pastor said the 3rd nor we of the apocolypse was released in July

You’ll have to explain that one.....???

 

[Aunty Jane]

You don't have to go door to door anymore unless you want a high position with the organization.
The rules have been changed.
Don't know why.

Oh good grief! Says the expert on JW’s...your assertions are a joke.