THE GOSPEL AND HEALING

[Doug]

So the gentiles and Jews that were saved by the original apostles are part of the OT resurrection at the beginning of teh millennial and not part of the body of Christ in your opinion?

Yes right

 

[Doug]

When did jewish believers become part of teh body of Christ according to you and did any of the converts from Peter and the original 11 become part of the body and what evidence do you present to support such a hypothesis?

The Jews became members of the body by believing Paul's gospel.
None of the little flock lead by Peter became members of the body. In fact wouldnt go into areas to convert where there was already little flock believers
There is not just one evidence, there are differences in the churches, one example is the gospel itself. Peter didnt preach the cross for salvation for all, Paul did. Another was Jesus and Peter preached keeping the law, Paul didnt. Peter preached the earthly kingdom , Paul didnt. Peter preached Christ rose to sit on David's throne, Paul preached Christ rose for our justification. Peter and his church disappeared from scripture, Paul remained.

 

[Doug]

But you are wrong that there are two churches.

I dont rember if I asked you these questions, here they are

As far as there being one church please answer these questions:

If there is one true church then the teachings of Jesus and the twelve and Paul are all for us.

[Matthew 28:19 KJV] "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
[Matthew 28:20 KJV] "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."............the twelve were to teach the nations to observe ALL things he commanded them. The teachings of Jesus and the twelve are one and the same.

If there is only one true church then the teachings of Jesus and the twelve apply to us. If this is so then some verses need to be addressed.

[Luke 12:33 KJV] "Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth."..........This verse would apply to whoever says there is one church. If there is one church then this command from Christ applies because ALL teachings and commands do. HAVE YOU SOLD ALL, IF NOT, WHY DOESNT THIS APPLY TO YOU?

[Matthew 24:14 KJV] "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."...........are you preaching the gospel of the kingdom? Are you preaching the prophetic kingdom on earth is at hand? Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom and commanded the twelve to preach it. The gospel was the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth in which believing Israel will reign with Christ for a thousand years was at hand. It demanded repentance and water baptism. This command applies if there is one true church. ARE YOU PRECHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM?

[Acts 2:38 KJV] "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."..........If there is one true church then this command applies. To have sins forgiven (remitted) water baptism is required, otherwise sins aren't washed away. DID YOU GET WATER BAPTIZED? IF SO DID YOU ACKNOWLEDGE IT WAS TO WASH AWY YOUR SINS?

[Matthew 6:14 KJV] "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:"
[Matthew 6:15 KJV] "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."........This teaching applies to the one true church. Ones sins can't be forgiven unless one forgives others. THIS COMMAND CAUSES A DILEMMA. The one true church requires us to apply all the teachings of Jesus and the twelve, but Paul is an apostle in the one church as well and his teachings and commands apply as well. Paul teaches we are forgiven ALL trespasses..........[Colossians 2:13 KJV] "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"...........How do you reconcile this?. The twelve would have to teach we need to forgive to be forgiven. Paul teaches we have all forgiveness. Who's teaching on this do we follow? The way to reconcile this is to acknowledge there are two churches with different commands and teachings.
WHOSE TEACHING ON FORGIVENESS SHOULD YOU FOLLOW? DO YOU FOLLOW JESUS AND BELIEVE YOU MUST FORGIVE TO BE FOREGIVEN OR PAUL WHO SAYS YOU HAVE ALL FOREGIVENESS?

I only gave a few scriptures as examples, but all of the teachings of Jesus, the twelve, and Paul would require application if there were only one church.

 

[Doug]

Proof? They were filled with the Holy Spiirit as all other members of the body of Christ. OT saints were not. So where is your definitive proof that all those converted by the apostles are excluded from the church.

I dont have proof but we are in a different dispensation.

The OT saints did indeed have the Spirit. I dont think they were indwelt like the body. In the NT they didnt get the Spirit until Christ was risen.
Here are some passages about the OT saints
[Exodus 31:3 KJV] "And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,"
[Judges 14:6 KJV] "And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and [he had] nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done."
[Judges 6:34 KJV] "But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him."

 

[Doug]

Are you sure you are not a Jehovahs witness? you sound so eerily similar to their false teaching.

No they think they are the 144K and deny Christ's diety
Gentiles will be in the kingdom..........[Matthew 25:32 KJV] "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:"
[Isaiah 2:2 KJV] "And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

 

[Doug]

why would Paul go to Jerusalem to present His gospel to the church there if they were not at all part of the body of christ as you say!

[Galatians 2:2 KJV] "And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain."
All I know is he went to them by revelation. He says it was the gospel he preached, which means they werent preaching the same gospel.

 

[talons]

And Satan smiled as all the teachings of Paul were cast away .

 

[Doug]

But you are wrong that there are two churches. You make that argument from silence and not from evidence

Paul is saying there was a church before he was converted, which was the little flock Jerusalem church and Jesus saved him to reveal the church the body of Christ..[Galatians 1:13 KJV] "For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:".............................. [Acts 8:1 KJV] "And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.".................... the Jews in the little flock were scattered ..........................
[James 1:1 KJV] "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
[1 Peter 1:1 KJV] "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,".................James and Peter were writing to the scattered little flock church. Where is it said the body of Christ church was scattered?......................the body of Christ was mystery not revealed before Paul.....................[1 Corinthians 12:27 KJV] "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."
[Romans 12:4 KJV] "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:"
[Romans 12:5 KJV] "So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."
[1 Corinthians 10:17 KJV] "For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."
[1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV] "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."............only Paul speaks of the body

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Peter was part of the little flock believing remnant of Israel not the body of Christ

[Ephesians 2:19 KJV] "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"
[Ephesians 2:20 KJV] "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];"..................Paul is saying the body of Christ have been made part of the household of God

[1 Peter 2:5 KJV] "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."............Peter is saying the little flock believing remnant of Israel is built a spiritual house

[1 Corinthians 3:10 KJV] "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon."..............Paul made his foundation and the members of the body of Christ build upon it

[Ephesians 2:21 KJV] "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:".............The building of Peter and the disciples built upon their foundation and Paul and the building upon his foundation are BUILT TOGETHER into a holy temple and and BUILDED TOGETHER for a habitation of the Spirit............[Ephesians 2:22 KJV] "In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Known as the one faith, one baptism, one body- not two!

Yes right

Very wrong! OT saints did not have the infilling of the Holy Spirit ike NT believers do. OT believers only had the ondwelling of the Spirit.

The Jews became members of the body by believing Paul's gospel.
None of the little flock lead by Peter became members of the body. In fact wouldnt go into areas to convert where there was already little flock believers
There is not just one evidence, there are differences in the churches, one example is the gospel itself. Peter didnt preach the cross for salvation for all, Paul did. Another was Jesus and Peter preached keeping the law, Paul didnt. Peter preached the earthly kingdom , Paul didnt. Peter preached Christ rose to sit on David's throne, Paul preached Christ rose for our justification. Peter and his church disappeared from scripture, Paul remained.

Peter did preach the cross. It is shown in His teaching on the death and resurrection of Jesus. Remember Pentecost happened 50 days after Jesus death and resurrection. He preached in Jerusalem and the crowds knew Jesus was crucified.

But your argument does not sahow two separate churches and two separate bodies! YOu also have to remember that most of what Peter preached, was preached to Jews, who have a separate destiny in the millennial kingdom.

If there is one true church then the teachings of Jesus and the twelve and Paul are all for us.

[Matthew 28:19 KJV] "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
[Matthew 28:20 KJV] "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."............the twelve were to teach the nations to observe ALL things he commanded them. The teachings of Jesus and the twelve are one and the same.

If there is only one true church then the teachings of Jesus and the twelve apply to us. If this is so then some verses need to be addressed.

After the kingdom was removed from Israel in Matt.12, yes the church does observe all that the apostles and Jesus taught. Jesus teaching radically changed after Israel blasphemed the Spirit. And the Apostles went into many people groups and taught them all Jesus taught them from that point! That is also confirmed in Acts1.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

You are now bordering on saying the Apostles taught a different gospel than Paul!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I dont have proof but we are in a different dispensation.

The OT saints did indeed have the Spirit. I dont think they were indwelt like the body. In the NT they didnt get the Spirit until Christ was risen.
Here are some passages about the OT saints
[Exodus 31:3 KJV] "And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,"
[Judges 14:6 KJV] "And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and [he had] nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done."
[Judges 6:34 KJV] "But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him."

They had the ondwelling but not the infilling as the church does. Even Jesus said that! John 14-16
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

In the OT He on dwelt and could be taken away, not so in the New- He abides in us, regenerates us and abides forever.

No they think they are the 144K and deny Christ's diety
Gentiles will be in the kingdom..........[Matthew 25:32 KJV] "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:"
[Isaiah 2:2 KJV] "And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

In this area, you sound alot like them. Yes the survivors of the tribulation will repopulate the earth.

[Galatians 2:2 KJV] "And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain."
All I know is he went to them by revelation. He says it was the gospel he preached, which means they werent preaching the same gospel.

No it meant that some of the content is vastly different not the gospel.

Remember Paul saiod this:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul said any other gospel! Not excluding what the original apostles and all their converts were preaching. You now condemn the apostles and all their converts for you just said they preached a dsifferent gospel than Paul!

 

[Doug]

Known as the one faith, one baptism, one body- not two!

This is only found in Paul NOT in the gospels or Acts from Peter

 

[Doug]

Peter did preach the cross. It is shown in His teaching on the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Where did Peter preach the cross for the salvation of all? Preaching the death and resurrection was nothing new it was in the OT prophets

 

[Doug]

After the kingdom was removed from Israel in Matt.12, yes the church does observe all that the apostles and Jesus taught.

I have had only one person address these questions. Most ignore them or explain them away
If you say there is one church then all the teachings apply.
You evaded them as well

 

[Doug]

Paul said any other gospel! Not excluding what the original apostles and all their converts were preaching. You now condemn the apostles and all their converts for you just said they preached a dsifferent gospel than Paul!

[Galatians 1:8 KJV] "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Paul wasnt accursing the gospel the twelve preached he was cursing those who preached a different gospel from what he preached the body of Christ

 

[Doug]

Proof? They were filled with the Holy Spiirit as all other members of the body of Christ. OT saints were not. So where is your definitive proof that all those converted by the apostles are excluded from the church.

I thought about this
I misspoke They according to scripture diminished.............[Romans 11:12 KJV] "Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is only found in Paul NOT in the gospels or Acts from Peter

So according to you then there are tow faiths, two baptisms, two lords, two bodies. WOW!

I thought about this
I misspoke They according to scripture diminished.............[Romans 11:12 KJV] "Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"

T
hat is in reference to israel as a nation, not to the saved within the nation.

[Galatians 1:8 KJV] "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Paul wasnt accursing the gospel the twelve preached he was cursing those who preached a different gospel from what he preached the body of Christ

Sorry, but you said Peter and Paul preached different gospels and there is no exclusion to Pauls cursing!

I have had only one person address these questions. Most ignore them or explain them away
If you say there is one church then all the teachings apply.
You evaded them as well

NO all the teachings do not apply. If you understood grammar and context you would know that! You would know that up until MAtthew 12 Jesus was preaching the kingdom, but after that He revoked the kingdom to that generation and began teaching the Apostles what was needed to build the church. Not two bodies, but one body.

Where did Peter preach the cross for the salvation of all? Preaching the death and resurrection was nothing new it was in the OT prophets

So you are saying that since Jesus death and resurrection and ascension, there were more than one gospel by which people could get saved?

Acts 2, Acts 4,1 Peter 1, 1 Peter3,

 

[Doug]

So you are saying that since Jesus death and resurrection and ascension, there were more than one gospel by which people could get saved?

Peter was preaching to believe on the name of Jesus for salvation while Paul was preaching the cross. They coexisted in their ministries for awhile as can be seen in Galatians 2. Today we only have Paul's gospel.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Peter was preaching to believe on the name of Jesus for salvation while Paul was preaching the cross. They coexisted in their ministries for awhile as can be seen in Galatians 2. Today we only have Paul's gospel.

How can you possibly know that? Have you been all around the world and listened to every chuches message of salvation?

You yourself admitted that the apostles preached the name of Jesus only for salvation (which is a lie as shown in Acts). they lanted many churches and according to you , they planted churches just in belief on the name of Jesus. They continued and preached the gospel they received, so how can you say it is still not being preached. You believe it.

Also Paul in Romans expressly said belief on His name would save you. You assume that because it is not written down, it was never spoken. That makes you very very foolish especially in light of what is written and what is known of OT prophecies concerning Messiah to be wounded for our transgressions.

 

[Doug]

How can you possibly know that? Have you been all around the world and listened to every chuches message of salvation?

I dont know what you are saying please clarify

 

[Doug]

They continued and preached the gospel they received, so how can you say it is still not being preached. You believe it.

The twelve preached the gospel of the kingdom which was the millennial kingdom was at hand. If it being preached today it would be the wrong gospel. Paul's gospel is for this dispensation. The gospel of the kingdom will be preached again in the tribulation.