Why the great chain?

[TribulationSigns]

The slain Lamb could open seals prior to the cross, just like Jesus was able to forgive sins prior to the cross.

Matthew 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? 6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Prior to the Cross, eh? Let test this if you can biblically explain this:

1.) When did the Lamb opened the first seal?
2.) When did the White Horse came out exactly.
3.) What is the purpose of His bow?
4.) When did he receive the crown that was "given" to Him?
5.) When did He start going forth conquering and to conquer? Conquering what?

Did these took place "prior to the Cross?" based on the timeline of your preterism doctrine, humm?

 

[Randy Kluth]

But why have one if he is also locked in the abyss?

Don't know. It just tells me he is locked up. Maybe more than just being detained it indicates that his activities are being restrained, as well?

Amills (your position?) think Satan is already locked up in the present age. And certainly Satan is no longer able to condemn those who are in Christ Jesus.

Premills (my position) think a time is coming for mortal humanity when even Satan's present activities will be reduced further, so that the promises God made to Abraham will be fulfilled in Christian nations across the world. But we could argue this until the sun goes down, and well after the sun comes up again! ;)

 

[grafted branch]

Prior to the Cross, eh? Let test this if you can biblically explain this:

1.) When did the Lamb opened the first seal?
2.) When did the White Horse came out exactly.
3.) What is the purpose of His bow?
4.) When did he receive the crown that was "given" to Him?
5.) When did He start going forth conquering and to conquer? Conquering what?

All happened at His birth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

All happened at His birth.

Seriously?

Typical Preterism false interpretation without Scripture support whatsoever!

No, you need to try again and answer the five questions above with Scripture support that you "believe" took place at the Cross.

 

[grafted branch]

Seriously?

Typical Preterism false interpretation without Scripture support whatsoever!

No, you need to try again and answer the five questions above with Scripture support that you "believe" took place at the Cross.

1st seal: Revelation 6:1-2



When the Lamb opens the first seal, the first beast which is like a lion says come and see.



The rider on the white horse goes forth conquering and to conquer. The words conquering and conquer are Strong’s #3528 which is more commonly used as overcome. In Revelation 5:5 the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David hath prevailed (#3528) to open the book. This is Christ going forth at his birth to complete or overcome what was necessary to open the book of life and secure the salvation of those written in the book. The bow he has would then be a rainbow similar to Ezekiel 1:28. This bow or appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord is seen at the time of Christ’s birth in Luke2:9 when the glory of the Lord shone round about the shepherds in the field. In Luke 1:32 the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. This is the crown given him. The color white is associated with purity, our sins being removed or covered. Believers are given white robes and shall be whiter than snow.

 

[Marty fox]

Don't know. It just tells me he is locked up. Maybe more than just being detained it indicates that his activities are being restrained, as well?

Amills (your position?) think Satan is already locked up in the present age. And certainly Satan is no longer able to condemn those who are in Christ Jesus.

Premills (my position) think a time is coming for mortal humanity when even Satan's present activities will be reduced further, so that the promises God made to Abraham will be fulfilled in Christian nations across the world. But we could argue this until the sun goes down, and well after the sun comes up again! ;)

But God could just speak satan bound just like when Jesus cast out demons He only spoke it.

I think it’s up to us, I believe that the great chain is the power and truth of the gospel which binds satan from deceiving us, but we have to play a part in it we have to choose to believe be obedient, guard ousel and use that power thought our thoughts and actions or we can still be deceived

Just like as WMP says, if a vicious dog is on a 10‘ chain we have to stay more than 10’ away to keep safe but is we move closer than 10’ we can still get bit.

 

[Adventageous]

Prior to the Cross, eh? Let test this if you can biblically explain this:

1.) When did the Lamb opened the first seal?
2.) When did the White Horse came out exactly.
3.) What is the purpose of His bow?
4.) When did he receive the crown that was "given" to Him?
5.) When did He start going forth conquering and to conquer? Conquering what?

Ooh, ooh, I know, I know - Cross-Bow - Conquering And To Conquer : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[grafted branch]

Just like as WMP says, if a vicious dog is on a 10‘ chain we have to stay more than 10’ away to keep safe but is we move closer than 10’ we can still get bit.

But wouldn’t that analogy mean that people who are deceived (bit) by Satan are in the bottomless pit (10’ area)?

 

[TribulationSigns]

The rider on the white horse goes forth conquering and to conquer. The words conquering and conquer are Strong’s #3528 which is more commonly used as overcome.

Oh a newly born infant started going forth conquering and to conquer? And he have not yet been slain? Okay...Next..

In Revelation 5:5 the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David hath prevailed (#3528) to open the book.

(Chuckle). No, the word prevailed (ἐνίκησεν, nikēsen) means to conquer, overcome, or be victorious. this is NOT about entering the world. It is about winning a victory. Victory over what? Sin, Death, Satan, and the Law's condemnation.

And you also misunderstood badly. The vision in the verse itself tells us WHEN He prevailed:

"And I beheld...a lamb as it had been slain." Clearly, Christ did not prevail at His Birth. Christ did not prevail at His incarnation. Christ did not prevail at His earthly ministry alone as you like us to believe. He prevailed as the slain Lamb.
The Lamb is already slain so you can't have a "slain lamb" at Christ's birth. The Cross is already an accomplished fact. And the Lamb took the scroll from the Father which is clearly enthronement language. Not at the birth.

You need to read the following Scripture:

Daniel 7:13–14 – The Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days and receives dominion.
Psalm 110:1 – “Sit at My right hand…”

This happens after Christ's suffering and being killed, not before it, especially being a baby in a manager. Remember that Heaven erupts in worship 'because' he was slain. The worthiness to open the scroll is earned, not assumed at birth. Selah!
And your doctrine is dangerous. You insisted that Christ prevailed at birth which empties the Cross of its centrality, contradicts the "slain lamb" imagery, confuses incarnation with redemption, and smuggles preterism into the text.

This is Christ going forth at his birth to complete or overcome what was necessary to open the book of life and secure the salvation of those written in the book.

Huh? The scroll is the Book of Life itself?

The bow he has would then be a rainbow similar to Ezekiel 1:28. This bow or appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord is seen at the time of Christ’s birth in Luke2:9 when the glory of the Lord shone round about the shepherds in the field.

The bow in his right hand is a... rainbow? Do you realize the Greek word used is τόξον (toxon)? That word means a weapon, used for shooting arrows. Never used in Scripture to mean "rainbow." You private interpreted it.

In Luke 1:32 the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. This is the crown given him.

When was that exactly? Was it at His birth. No, Luke 1:32 is a prophetic announcement. Not a coronation scene. Here is what Luke 1:32 actually says (and what it does NOT say).

Luke 1:32
(32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

The key phrase: "shall give". That is future tense. It does not say, He has received the throne, was crowned at birth, is reigning at birth. Christ clearly NOT crowned at His birth. If He did, several passage become impossible:

John 18:36
(36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 6:15
(15) When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

Clearly a crowned king does not refuse his crown.

Also Christ sitting on the throne follows atonement:

Hebrews 1:3
(3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Atonement did not take place at His birth.

The color white is associated with purity, our sins being removed or covered. Believers are given white robes and shall be whiter than snow.

Indeed. For it is the righteousness of Saints.

Rev 19:8
(8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:11
(11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 6:2
(2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

After the resurrection, Christ went forth conquering on a white horse which signifies righteousness of Christ.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Ooh, ooh, I know, I know - Cross-Bow - Conquering And To Conquer : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Thanks for sharing this link.

 

[Marty fox]

But wouldn’t that analogy mean that people who are deceived (bit) by Satan are in the bottomless pit (10’ area)?

It’s a spiritual condition we are warned to stay on guard so that we don’t fall into temptation to sin

 

[grafted branch]

It’s a spiritual condition we are warned to stay on guard so that we don’t fall into temptation to sin

Ok, I’m not arguing against it but your view is that the bottomless pit is a condition and that there are currently people in the bottomless pit (in that condition)?

 

[Randy Kluth]

But God could just speak satan bound just like when Jesus cast out demons He only spoke it.

Yes, I believe it's always God's word that binds Satan, whether when casting out demons or in binding Satan from human activities for a thousand years. In whatever place that God reduces Satan's activities it is by God's spoken word.

He may, however, use us as an agency through which His word operates. We may, for example, be called upon to share words that liberate people from satanic darkness. We must learn to use God's living word, particularly in real time meeting real observed needs.

I think it’s up to us, I believe that the great chain is the power and truth of the gospel which binds satan from deceiving us, but we have to play a part in it we have to choose to believe be obedient, guard ousel and use that power thought our thoughts and actions or we can still be deceived

As I just said above, we apparently agree? Yes, in the present age our ministry is supposed to utilize God's living word to share truth with others that liberates them from darkness.

A born again person is, I believe, safe from Satan's efforts to delegitimate our Salvation. But in the present age we have to always fight spiritual warfare because our flesh is weak. That is, the Sinful Nature continues to operate in our physical beings, even though our spirits have been renewed by accepting God's word in our hearts.

Just like as WMP says, if a vicious dog is on a 10‘ chain we have to stay more than 10’ away to keep safe but is we move closer than 10’ we can still get bit.

Interesting! ;) I used to tell my kids, Why live right next to the edge of a cliff when you can choose to set up your tent several miles away from the cliff?

We need to separate ourselves from the danger of making poor choices. We don't always have the option, but if we can, we can choose to engage in useful, constructive activities, or even healthful leisurely activities, to keep away from sinful temptations.

We can't always blame Satan for our failures. The Sin is right inside of us. But we can overcome it. We can make good choices because in accepting God's word within we always have the power to prevail against the lusts of the flesh.

We certainly don't fight Sin or the Devil headon, as if we are superior creatures. We simply have the power to turn away from them. That's what we need to do to remain righteous and feel clean.

 

[Truth7t7]

Christ—yes, Michael

Ellen G.White, In 7th Day Adventist Garbage

"No" Jesus Christ Isn't Michael The Archangel

 

[TribulationSigns]

Ellen G.White, In 7th Day Adventist Garbage

"No" Jesus Christ Isn't Michael The Archangel

LOL... you do not believe that Christ is Archangel Michael BECAUSE it is the teaching of SDA so "ANYTHING" that sounds like that must be heresy so you simple stop listen or receive what God's Word says concerning Michael? That is pretty weak on your part because this is not sola Scriptura - that is tribal theology. You are basely reacting to a "label", not the text.

So you need to learn to prove all things, hold fast that which is good, 1 Thess 5:21.

What you "do not" understand that Arch means chief. Angel (angelos) means messenger. So archangel literally means chief messenger, not "created being," whether its SDA's belief or yours. God is indeed chief messenger.

Michael in Daniel​

Dan 12:1-2
(1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So think carefully... who else in Scripture that is the Prince but Messiah the Prince? Who else in Scripture that can deliver His people? Who else in Scripture that has the power to raise the dead? Is it not Jesus Christ Himself, humm? Clearly he is not your vision of created angelic being.

Michael in 1 Thess​

1Th 4:16-17
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now the question must be asked honestly from the text: Where does Scripture ever identify an archangel—separate from the Lord Himself—whose voice has the authority to resurrect the dead? No such being exists in Scripture.

The passage does not say the Lord is accompanied by an archangel who gives a separate command. It says the Lord Himself descends, and that descent is characterized by one shout, one voice, one authority—described as the voice of the archangel. Scripture consistently teaches that resurrection power belongs to Christ alone (John 5:25–29). He does not borrow authority, nor does He require assistance.

Did Christ need an angel to help Him shout? Absolutely not. The resurrection occurs by His own voice, because He is the One to whom all authority in heaven and on earth is given (Matthew 28:18). The term archangel describes His role as the chief messenger and commander, not a lesser being acting independently.


There is one resurrection, one voice, and one source of authority—the Lord Himself. To divide that authority between Christ and another being is to impose something on the text that Scripture never teaches.

Michael in Revelation 12​

Rev 12:7-8
(7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
(8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Jesus Christ is an archangel (chef messenger). And His angels (messengers) are his human believers. This is because Michael is their head, was assuredly is God, and His power is that which cannot be withstood.

And note "carefully" in verse eighteen Christ's response to their rejoicing at their victory over devils..

Luk 10:18-19
(18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
(19) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

This falling from heaven is exactly what the verses of Revelation chapter twelve is referring to when it says Satan was then cast out of the kingdom of heaven (congregation) and the heavens rejoiced. This signifies that Satan had no more power over the army of God, and the kingdom of Heaven would go forth to the nations of the whole world because of it. That accuser Satan was cast out that the bondage wherewith he held men would be broken by the power of Christ's cross.

I have seen in scripture that Michael is surely Christ! The Lord Jesus is the ONLY ONE who qualifies to be Michael--who assuredly is God. He is the only one who stands to help the Lord's people. He is the only Chief Messenger of God who could do all these things. The only one who could contend with Satan and cast down the accuser that we are no longer in fear of death. The only one who could make sin and the law have no more power over us. The Archangel Michael "IS" the Chief Ruler of the Lord's people, but He is not a created being as SDA believe. He is not an Arch-Angel, but an Arch-Messenger of the Lord, and has appeared time and again in the Old Testament to illustrate that He was assuredly God. Michael, the Great Prince that stands up, and that stands for the children of Daniel's people which includes all the New Testament Saints!

Period!

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

If this is literal and satan is locked and sealed in the abyss why would there even be a need for a great chain?

What is the purpose of the great chain?

What is the great chain?

Why lock him in a prison? Why not just use the chain? Why isn't the chain enough?

Obviously God wants two forms of control upon satan during that time.

 

[Marty fox]

Ok, I’m not arguing against it but your view is that the bottomless pit is a condition and that there are currently people in the bottomless pit (in that condition)?

No, let me clarify the bottomless pit is symbolic for satan being bound by deceiving us through the truth and the power of the gospel. The gospel reveals the truth to us and if we stay connected to it satan can’t deceive us he might as well be bound in a pit. But he can deceive those who don’t put their faith in the gospel they don’t use the great chain

 

[Marty fox]

Why lock him in a prison? Why not just use the chain? Why isn't the chain enough?

Obviously God wants two forms of control upon satan during that time.

That’s my point but the other way around if we have a literal prison why need or use a chain?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Why lock him in a prison? Why not just use the chain? Why isn't the chain enough?

Obviously God wants two forms of control upon satan during that time.

The power of binding is in the SYMBOLISM of the key, the chain, and the Messenger from Heaven (Kingdom of Heaven).

Satan can NOT be bound with a literal Chain of iron, or locked in a literal place (pit) in a far far away in the Galaxy with a literal brass Key. Satan is a spirit being which cannot be bound by literal earthly devices. The words here of keys and chains have spiritual significance. The Lord uses these symbols to illustrate a spiritual (but very literal) picture for us. Once we understand this, half the battle of understanding His Word is won. The key here symbolizes that the Messenger (Jesus Christ) has the right and authority to bind and loose. This messenger come down from Heaven holds the right and authority and means (key) to bind Satan. The signification being, "He who holds the key, holds the ability and authority to restrain Satan". That would also include ability and authority to loose Satan from that restraint. The Chain symbolizes the power (force or energy required to do the holding) to bind. It is a "Great" Chain because Satan is a very powerful and strong spiritual adversary, upon whom only a great or special binding from God will restrain. The bottomless pit is symbolism for a boundless void (or Abyss) of nothingness. Satan (a spirit being) is held in idleness, that his ability to deceive the gentiles whom God is now also drawing by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, is halted, stopped, or restrained. For example, Satan cannot prevent this while God's church is being built by spoiling people out of his house (world).

 

[ewq1938]

That’s my point but the other way around if we have a literal prison why need or use a chain?

I addressed that already.