Why the great chain?

[bdavidc]

If the great chain and abyss are literal then there is no need for the great chain

You are just trying to push a falsehood that it is consistently taught by amillennial, postmillennial, and preterist teachers who refuse to let Revelation say what it says.

 

[bdavidc]

I completely agree except that I don't criticize those who are curious--not even if they have an unspoken agenda. It is when we reason together with the Lord and with one another that we are encouraged to believe God's truth. Let's let them ask--otherwise, we're in complete agreement.

I have no issue with honest questions. Scripture invites them. “Come now, and let us reason together” ~Isaiah 1:18.

What I am pushing back on is not curiosity, but conclusions that go beyond what is written. There is a difference between asking what Scripture says and reshaping Scripture to satisfy curiosity.

The text answers its own purpose. Satan is bound so that he cannot deceive the nations ~Revelation 20:3. That fact alone rules out symbolic explanations that place the binding in the present. When Scripture is clear, speculation stops. “Learn not to go beyond what is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

So yes, let people ask. But we are also commanded to guard the meaning of the text. “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” ~1 Peter 4:11. Curiosity is not the problem. Rewriting the passage is. On that, we are in agreement.

 

[Marilyn C]

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

If this is literal and satan is locked and sealed in the abyss why would there even be a need for a great chain?

What is the purpose of the great chain?

What is the great chain?

Hi Marty,

The great chain is a symbol of God`s word of authority. This was foretold in Isaiah 14: 15 `Lucifer.....you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the pit.`

 

[Marty fox]

You are just trying to push a falsehood that it is consistently taught by amillennial, postmillennial, and preterist teachers who refuse to let Revelation say what it says.

Or asking a sensible reasonable question.

 

[bdavidc]

Or asking a sensible question.

There is a difference between asking a question and using a question to overturn the text.

Scripture already answers the issue. Satan is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3. The nations are still deceived ~1 John 5:19. Satan still blinds minds ~2 Corinthians 4:4 and still prowls ~1 Peter 5:8. Those facts rule out a present, symbolic binding.

A sensible question submits to the answer God gives. A falsehood begins when the question is used to redefine what Scripture plainly states.

When teachers use questions to replace clear statements, they are no longer reasoning with the text. They are resisting it.

The issue is not curiosity. The issue is whether Revelation is allowed to mean what it says.

 

[Button]

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

If this is literal and satan is locked and sealed in the abyss why would there even be a need for a great chain?

What is the purpose of the great chain?

What is the great chain?

Just that passage alone shuts down the Gnostic Marcion type idea that claims God

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

If this is literal and satan is locked and sealed in the abyss why would there even be a need for a great chain?

What is the purpose of the great chain?

What is the great chain?

What is the Biblical metaphor for chain?

Remember the story of Samson?
His captors let his his hair grow back, and then brought him in chains before the people. And he ended up destroying them.

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

What is the purpose of the great chain?

It's only purpose is to serve as a metaphor to help us to understand what is being unveiled. Chain goes with binding like butter knife goes with butter. Abyss goes with prison like chain goes with binding,

Yet many do not understand.

 

[Marty fox]

There is a difference between asking a question and using a question to overturn the text.

Scripture already answers the issue. Satan is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3. The nations are still deceived ~1 John 5:19. Satan still blinds minds ~2 Corinthians 4:4 and still prowls ~1 Peter 5:8. Those facts rule out a present, symbolic binding.

A sensible question submits to the answer God gives. A falsehood begins when the question is used to redefine what Scripture plainly states.

When teachers use questions to replace clear statements, they are no longer reasoning with the text. They are resisting it.

The issue is not curiosity. The issue is whether Revelation is allowed to mean what it says.

Then how do you answer that multiple of millions of people today and since the cross from all of the nations aren't deceived anymore due to the gospel?

How do you answer that a room of a handful of people on the day of Pentecost spread the gospel to the whole known world within about 30-40 years before fast travel and high-speed information tools.

It was the power of the gospel that bound satan from deceiving over three thousand Jewish people from every nation under heaven when Peter preached his first sermon.

Satan is bound by deceiving about who Jesus is and what He did for us if we choose to believe in the gospel

If satan is literally bound and sealed in the abyss there would be no need for a literal chain

Acts 2
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

 

[Marilyn C]

Then how do you answer that multiple of millions of people today and since the cross from all of the nations aren't deceived anymore due to the gospel?

How do you answer that a room of a handful of people on the day of Pentecost spread the gospel to the whole known world within about 30-40 years before fast travel and high-speed information tools.

It was the power of the gospel that bound satan from deceiving over three thousand Jewish people from every nation under heaven when Peter preached his first sermon.

Satan is bound by deceiving about who Jesus is and what He did for us if we choose to believe in the gospel

If satan is literally bound and sealed in the abyss there would be no need for a literal chain

Acts 2
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

Actually I would rather say it is the believer `casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.` (2 Cor. 10: 5)

The good news of Christ`s sacrifice and victory need to be put into effect.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Wow. talk about heresy.

Really?

Throwing out the word “heresy” without a single verse isn’t discernment—it’s deflection. If you believe something is false, Scripture is the standard, not personal offense or church tradition (Acts 17:11).


The Bible does not define Satan the way popular theology assumes. Much of what people believe about Satan comes from later tradition, not explicit Scripture.


Scripture repeatedly identifies Satan with the spirit at work in fallen mankind, not a red-suited cartoon being or created celestial being:

• Ephesians 2:2 — “the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience”
• 1 John 3:8 — “He that committeth sin is of the devil”
• John 8:44 — Jesus tells the Pharisees their father is the devil, then immediately defines that as lying and murder proceeding from within them
• James 1:14–15 — sin originates from man’s own lust, not an external demon forcing him
• Romans 7:17–20 — Paul describes sin as a power dwelling in him
  

Scripture consistently locates evil inside fallen humanity, not as an independent rival God roaming the universe.

If Satan were merely a created being acting independently of man, then human responsibility collapses—yet Scripture never allows that. Judgment always falls on man, not on some external scapegoat.

So before crying “heresy,” do what Scripture commands:

• Prove all things (1 Thess. 5:21)
• Test the spirits (1 John 4:1)
• Reason from the Scriptures (Acts 17:2)

If you have verses that clearly define Satan as a separate created spiritual entity acting apart from man, then present them.
If not, calling something heresy only reveals how shallow your understanding really is.

 

[grafted branch]

When you talk about Gentiles outside of Israel getting "Saved" before the Cross, what do you mean by "getting Saved?" Nobody is technically "Saved" before the Cross, because the Cross had to happen before anybody could be "Saved."

Well, as far as a Gentile being “saved” prior to the cross, I’m referring to the final destination of that individual after physical death. We know of Nineveh as an entire group of Gentiles that received the Word but there are some people who will argue that no one was actually “saved” in Nineveh, they only repented in order to not be destroyed. So I just used the term “saved” to try to avoid other issues.

If you deny that Israel alone was in covenant with God in the OT era, then you deny the exclusivity of the Law, which God said made Israel unique. Yet that doesn't deny that others could have faith in God's inner word even in their ignorance without even needing a formal covenant.

Right, but there are some folks who have to have no Gentiles (at least during the time of the old covenant) being saved outside of them assimilating into the nation of Israel, else the binding of Satan won’t add up according to their narrative.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Prior to the cross, could a Gentile, who remained outside of the nation of Israel, have faith and be saved?

What do you think? Didn't you read Scripture ab out Melchizedek, Rabah, Ruth, Jethro, Caleb, Naaman the Syrian, Widow of Zarephath, people of Nineveh, Uriah the Hittite, and even God's promise to include Gentiles:

Isaiah 56:3-7
(3) Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
(4) For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
(6) Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
(7) Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

If the answer is yes, then there is one true “spiritual Israel” people of God, through out time, but it doesn’t matter whether Satan is bound or not, Gentiles get saved.

Ahh... this is a common "Satan must be bound before Gentiles can be saved, even in the Old Testament" argument. Let examine with Scirpture carefully:
You are correct that there is on true spiritual Israel, making up of both Jews and Gentiles based on:

One Covenant Promise (Genesis 12:3)
One way of Salvation, live by faith (Hab 2:4)
One people defined spiritually, not ethnically (Romans 2:28-29, Galatians 3:29, Ephesians 2:12-19).

There is no second Israel and no replacement - only expansion and revelation of the same people.

Here’s the symmetry you’re sensing (and you’re right to see it):

​

Era​	Majority Access​	Minority Saved​	Reason​
Old Testament​	Jews​	Some Gentiles​	Faith​
New Testament​	Gentiles​	Some Jews​	Faith​

But the reason isn’t to “balance the scales.”


It’s to prove

Romans 11:32
“God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all”

You need to keep in mind that God's saving focus has always been FAITH, not ethnicity.

If the answer is no then the one true people of God was only in the nation of Israel and Satan was able to prevent Gentiles from being saved.

One word : False.

Gentiles were indeed saved as I explained above.

 

[grafted branch]

What do you think? Didn't you read Scripture ab out Melchizedek, Rabah, Ruth, Jethro, Caleb, Naaman the Syrian, Widow of Zarephath, people of Nineveh, Uriah the Hittite, and even God's promise to include Gentiles:

Isaiah 56:3-7
(3) Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
(4) For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
(6) Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
(7) Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.



Ahh... this is a common "Satan must be bound before Gentiles can be saved, even in the Old Testament" argument. Let examine with Scirpture carefully:
You are correct that there is on true spiritual Israel, making up of both Jews and Gentiles based on:

One Covenant Promise (Genesis 12:3)
One way of Salvation, live by faith (Hab 2:4)
One people defined spiritually, not ethnically (Romans 2:28-29, Galatians 3:29, Ephesians 2:12-19).

There is no second Israel and no replacement - only expansion and revelation of the same people.

Here’s the symmetry you’re sensing (and you’re right to see it):

​

Era​	Majority Access​	Minority Saved​	Reason​
Old Testament​	Jews​	Some Gentiles​	Faith​
New Testament​	Gentiles​	Some Jews​	Faith​

But the reason isn’t to “balance the scales.”


It’s to prove

Romans 11:32
“God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all”

You need to keep in mind that God's saving focus has always been FAITH, not ethnicity.



One word : False.

Gentiles were indeed saved as I explained above.

Ok, I agree with you that Gentiles were saved prior to the cross. So what is your view of Satan being bound? Was Satan bound so a large number of Gentiles could be saved vs a small number of Gentiles?

 

[Marilyn C]

Remember what God said to Satan referring to Satan`s (limited) authority over Job..

`So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he (Job) has in in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." (Job 1: 12)

 

[rwb]

Prior to the cross, could a Gentile, who remained outside of the nation of Israel, have faith and be saved?

If the answer is yes, then there is one true “spiritual Israel” people of God, through out time, but it doesn’t matter whether Satan is bound or not, Gentiles get saved.

If the answer is no then the one true people of God was only in the nation of Israel and Satan was able to prevent Gentiles from being saved.

Before there was a nation called Israel, God chose some Gentiles to be saved, from whom the promised birth of the Saviour would physically come. There had to be some Gentiles saved before Israel became a nation to provide the lineage from whom Christ would come.

Beginning with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the nation called Israel would be born and set apart for God from all other nations of the earth. From Israel came the Mosaic Laws, prophets and priests. Israel alone was given the oracles (Word) of God (Ro 3:2). Adoption by God pertained to Israel alone, having the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Ro 9:4-5). Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. God built up the nation called Israel that it would be a light unto all the nations of the world. Instead of becoming the light of God's grace unto all people, teaching them too the way of salvation through the promised Messiah, Israel turned away from God and became like the unbelieving nations (Gentiles) around them.

Since Israel alone possessed the means of salvation for whosoever believed before the advent of Christ, when Israel became a nation with Law, prophets, priests and King, if a Gentile desired to belong to the Covenant body of God (become saved), they must convert and become as a Jew committing to be obedient to all the Laws of Old, the prophets, priests and Kings. If a Gentile did not convert and become as the Jew they could not be eternally saved because Israel alone, through the prophets possessed knowledge of the promised Messiah ordained to come to redeem those of faith from the curse of the Law and eternal death.

That's why John writes that only "nations" (Gentiles) were deceived and that deception would be lifted from them if/when they heard the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed and according to grace through faith believe in Christ for eternal life. None of the nations could know this until after Christ literally came with the Kingdom of God and commanded His saints to proclaim the gospel of Kingdom of God must be preached unto ALL without distinction, (both Jew & Gentile) and all who believe have eternal life through Christ.

 

[rwb]

Satan is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3. That condition has never existed yet. Right now the nations are deceived ~1 John 5:19. Satan still blinds minds ~2 Corinthians 4:4. He still prowls ~1 Peter 5:8. A bound devil does not roam.

I am a Gentile from among the nations, among those who were deceived before learning of the advent of Christ's cross and resurrection and I possess eternal life NOW through Him from the moment I was born again. How can it be that I am no longer deceived by Satan and eternally saved if Christ has not already bound Satan? IOW shouldn't I still be deceived if Satan still has power of deception over the nations (Gentiles)? It seems you are under the allusion that the binding of Satan will bring peace, harmony, and tranquility upon this earth???

 

[bdavidc]

Then how do you answer that multiple of millions of people today and since the cross from all of the nations aren't deceived anymore due to the gospel?

Revelation 20 is future, not now. Scripture does not place Satan’s binding at the cross or at Pentecost.

John is explicit. Satan is bound, sealed in the abyss, and prevented from deceiving the nations, then later released to deceive them again ~Revelation 20:1–8. That sequence has never occurred in history. It cannot be spiritualized without emptying the text of meaning.

Acts 2 describes the outpouring of the Spirit, not the imprisonment of Satan. Those are two different works. The gospel advancing does not require Satan to be bound. Jesus Himself said Satan still snatches the word from hearts during this age ~Matthew 13:19.

Scripture written after Pentecost says Satan is active, not bound. He blinds unbelievers ~2 Corinthians 4:4. He deceives the whole world ~1 John 5:19. He roams and devours ~1 Peter 5:8. A sealed enemy does none of that.

You are redefining “deceive the nations” to mean “cannot stop some people from believing.” That is not what Revelation says. The nations today are still deceived, still in rebellion, still raging against Christ ~Psalm 2.

The gospel saves individuals now. Satan’s binding comes when Christ returns and judges the nations. Revelation is allowed to mean what it says.

This is not interpretation preference. This is submission to the text.

 

[bdavidc]

I am a Gentile from among the nations, among those who were deceived before learning of the advent of Christ's cross and resurrection and I possess eternal life NOW through Him from the moment I was born again. How can it be that I am no longer deceived by Satan and eternally saved if Christ has not already bound Satan? IOW shouldn't I still be deceived if Satan still has power of deception over the nations (Gentiles)? It seems you are under the allusion that the binding of Satan will bring peace, harmony, and tranquility upon this earth???

You are arguing against a position I am not taking.

Revelation 20:3 is future, not present. I am not treating it as something happening now. I am using it to show why it cannot be happening now.

John describes a condition that will exist when Satan is bound, that he “should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3. Scripture says that condition does not exist yet. The nations are still deceived ~1 John 5:19. Satan still blinds minds ~2 Corinthians 4:4. He still prowls ~1 Peter 5:8. That proves the passage is future.

You are the one collapsing the timeline by dragging a future text into the present and redefining it to fit current events. Individual Gentiles being saved does not equal the nations no longer being deceived. Acts 2 does not fulfill Revelation 20.

I am not saying Revelation 20 should be happening now and isn’t working. I am saying it is not happening now at all. That is the point.

The confusion in this discussion comes from treating a future judgment text as if it describes the church age. Scripture does not do that, and neither am I.

 

[rwb]

You are arguing against a position I am not taking.

Revelation 20:3 is future, not present. I am not treating it as something happening now. I am using it to show why it cannot be happening now.

John describes a condition that will exist when Satan is bound, that he “should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3. Scripture says that condition does not exist yet. The nations are still deceived ~1 John 5:19. Satan still blinds minds ~2 Corinthians 4:4. He still prowls ~1 Peter 5:8. That proves the passage is future.

You are the one collapsing the timeline by dragging a future text into the present and redefining it to fit current events. Individual Gentiles being saved does not equal the nations no longer being deceived. Acts 2 does not fulfill Revelation 20.

I am not saying Revelation 20 should be happening now and isn’t working. I am saying it is not happening now at all. That is the point.

The confusion in this discussion comes from treating a future judgment text as if it describes the church age. Scripture does not do that, and neither am I.

Are you really arguing that Gentiles (nations) are not being saved NOW as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being preached unto all the nations of the world? Why would Christ instruct His disciples to go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things He has commanded if Gentiles (nations) are still deceived because Satan has not yet been bound? No purpose in preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all nations (Gentiles) if Satan still holds them in bondage of death through sin!

Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Adventageous]

LOL... you do not believe that Christ is Archangel Michael BECAUSE it is the teaching of SDA so "ANYTHING" that sounds like that must be heresy so you simple stop listen or receive what God's Word says concerning Michael? ...

Not to derail this thread into a Jesus = Michael, and Jesus ≠ Michael, hotbed; I do want to briefly comment, that, indeed, "Yes, there is plenty of bigotry in the world, based on such 'tribal' fears / beliefs, just because someone utters something different than what their tribe has encapsulated as foundational 'truth'."

I have had people simply start calling me (personally), and even the dead sister White, names and epithets, just because of being Seventh-day Adventist. They would not listen to anything I said, and to attack a dead woman whose life was one of godliness (even stated by her then living opponents; I have those citations), is quite bigoted. Even the Bible states:

Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.​

Most do not realize the lengthy history of Christianity and the belief that Jesus = Michael, and a host of other names, and they do not desire to look too deep into that, otherwise they would have to admit that they had held an error for so long, but an hoary error, long in the tooth with age, does not ever make such the truth. That is a logical fallacy, and ends a person in Cognitive Dissonance, in a denial of the plain facts before them, to hold onto a fantasy that is not real or genuine simply because it is comfortable to them, mentally, at the time, like a security blanket. Truth is often cold refreshing water that needs to cleanse us from our errors, wrong ideas.

In their blind-hatred, and bigoted, responses, one can mentally see the frothing at the mouth, and bitter-anger in their own hearts, that they simply refuse to acknowledge. In spite of Christ's own words, they harbor a rage, and fanatical devilish zeal to purge this world of all who disagree with them. I have already met some on this forum, who even stated that such persons as I should not be allowed to speak / share at all. How very dark ages of them.

This book on Michael shows the history of the Christian church and the scriptural documentation on Jesus = Michael. All who disagree even before reading it, simply do not follow the Bible to begin with, and are arguing from their own mental 'word' in the place of God's word. - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Whether a person believes or disbelieves in this, is not really going to make or break them per se in their life, though to reject one truth, evenutally leads one to accept further errors, which can cause more issue.