"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, and the answer is that pistis does not mean obedience.

Ummm, along with trust and confidence - faithfulness is one of the definitions of Pistis.
"Pistis (πίστις) is a Greek word meaning faith, belief, trust, or confidence, emphasizing a loyal, active reliance that involves the mind, heart, and actions, rather than just intellectual assent."

Being faithful is what we DO in faith. This is what Jesus (Matt. 25:31-46), James (James 2:14-24) and Paul (1 Cor 13:1-3) were talking about. It's the obedience of faith.

Also - YOU said that the demons "trust" in God. But the word "believe" is translated as Pisteuo, which is NOT the same as Pistis. Pisteuo means "to think to be true, to be persuaded of." It is simply belief - not faith.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Ummm, along with trust and confidence - faithfulness is one of the definitions of Pistis.
"Pistis (πίστις) is a Greek word meaning faith, belief, trust, or confidence, emphasizing a loyal, active reliance that involves the mind, heart, and actions, rather than just intellectual assent."

Lexicons are known to be wrong, and since James says there is pistis without works, then pistis is not defined by a work or works, i.e. labor.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Lexicons are known to be wrong, and since James says there is pistis without works, then pistis is not defined by a work or works, i.e. labor.

WRONG.

James says that pistis without works is NOT faith. It's DEAD - worthless - nothing.
Works are an essential element of what faith is.

It's like love within a marriage that is devoid of trust is worthless.

 

[MonoBiblical]

WRONG.

James says that pistis without works is NOT faith.

Faith is a word that did not exist [back] then, and you only prove my point.

It's like love within a marriage that is devoid of trust is worthless.

Consideration without trust is not worthless, but it is more difficult. But this has nothing to do with my point as usual of yours.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Works are an essential element of what faith is.

Only in the English language. Thus, the protestant say faith always has loyal works, hence sola fide. And you would say as a Roman Catholic that your faith has to be directed right. But pistis and fide are not the word which is on every federal reserve note. Now if you think the federal reserve is faithfully in backing up currency, we have an even bigger problem with you than semantics.

 

[MonoBiblical]

It's DEAD - worthless - nothing.

2:19 σὺ πιστεύεις ὅτι ὁ θεός εἷς ἐστιν καλῶς ποιεῖς· καὶ τὰ δαιμόνια πιστεύουσιν καὶ φρίσσουσιν
Thou thyself trusts how a God the one is. Being what is good, thou does it. Even some demons they are trusting it and they are shuddering [at] it.

Further along is thus,
[Jas 2:21 NKJV] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Trust does not justify which is what pistis is. Rather labor/works make a man more righteous.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith is a word that did not exist bang then, and you only prove my point.

That’s your response??

James wrote that pistis without works is NOT pistis at ALL.
It’s dead and worthless (James 2:17, 26).

Consideration without trust is not worthless, but it is more difficult. But this has nothing to do with my point as usual of yours.

I only brought this up as a comparison.
And, in the context of a marriage – love without trust IS worthless.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Only in the English language. Thus, the protestant say faith always has loyal works, hence sola fide. And you would say as a Roman Catholic that your faith has to be directed right. But pistis and fide are not the word which is on every federal reserve note. Now if you think the federal reserve is faithfully in backing up currency, we have an even bigger problem with you than semantics.

Pistis is a word that is as old as Greek mythology – and evolved as many words do.

Scholarly evidence argues that pistis involves not only trust – but allegiance and faithfulness.
(Morgan, Teresa. Roman Faith and Christian Faith.)
(Bates, Matthew. Salvation by Allegiance Alone.)
As I indicated before – faithfulness is action.

Pistis in rhetoric can mean "proof" and is the element to induce true judgment through enthymemes, hence to give "proof" of a statement.
(Abizadeh, Arash. The passions of the wise: Phronesis, rhetoric, and Aristotle's passionate practical deliberation., Review of Metaphysics 56.2; ISSU 222 (2002): 267-296.)

This is WHY James and Paul indicate that works complete faith – NOT that they are simply evidence of faith.

And, as to your comparison - Christian faith is FAR more involved than what is written on a federal reserve note.

 

[BreadOfLife]

2:19 σὺ πιστεύεις ὅτι ὁ θεός εἷς ἐστιν καλῶς ποιεῖς· καὶ τὰ δαιμόνια πιστεύουσιν καὶ φρίσσουσιν
Thou thyself trusts how a God the one is. Being what is good, thou does it. Even some demons they are trusting it and they are shuddering [at] it.

The Greek word used here is not “trust”, but “believe” (Pisteuo). The Greek word for trust is εμπιστοσύνη (empistosýni). The demons don’t have trust or faithfulness. They only have belief.

Further along is thus,
[Jas 2:21 NKJV] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Trust does not justify which is what pistis is. Rather labor/works make a man more righteous.

Once again – pistis does NOT translate as trust.
Empistosýni is trust.

 

[MonoBiblical]

That’s your response??

James wrote that pistis without works is NOT pistis at ALL.
It’s dead and worthless (James 2:17, 26).

I only brought this up as a comparison.
And, in the context of a marriage – love without trust IS worthless.

You RCers think agape is unconditional love. It [is] about consideration, selfish or nonselfish both.

 

[MonoBiblical]

The Greek word used here is not “trust”, but “believe” (Pisteuo). The Greek word for trust is εμπιστοσύνη (empistosýni). The demons don’t have trust or faithfulness. They only have belief.

Once again – pistis does NOT translate as trust.
Empistosýni is trust.

Satan didn't trust YHWH in Job? Why isn't that the Roman Catholic clergy are notorious for knowing nothing? Examples like these are priceless. εμπιστοσύνη is not used in the NT at all which shows the worth of phrases like believe in.

 

[MonoBiblical]

Once again – pistis does NOT translate as trust.

Then it means even less then trust. Which puts the weight on your conceits even greater.

 

[MonoBiblical]

This is WHY James and Paul indicate that works complete faith – NOT that they are simply evidence of faith.

Scripture please. Otherwise you are just talking out your bottom.

 

[MonoBiblical]

And, as to your comparison - Christian faith is FAR more involved than what is written on a federal reserve note.

Catholic faith doesn't seem to be. It would also seem that per Hebrews 1:1 that pistis is hope, but it, the trust, is about trusting things not yet seen. And don't pretend trust has nothing doing with allegiance.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You RCers think agape is unconditional love. It about consideration, selfish or nonselfish both.

Regardless of how much you hate Catholics - there are no less than FOUR words for “Love” in Greek:
Agape - unconditional/sacrificial love
Eros - romantic/passionate love
Philia – brotherly love
Sorge – familial/friendship love

Satan didn't trust YHWH in Job?

NO. He believed Him. He didn't have faith in Him.

Why isn't that the Roman Catholic clergy are notorious for knowing nothing? Examples like these are priceless. εμπιστοσύνη is not used in the NT at all which shows the worth of phrases like believe in.

Not the ones I know, who are very knowledgeable.

Why is it that bitter, anti-Catholics can't get through a single post without vomiting out their hatred?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then it means even less then trust. Which puts the weight on your conceits even greater.

As I indicated before – trust is but ONE of several meanings of pistis - along with belief and faithfulness.

Scripture please. Otherwise you are just talking out your bottom.

I ALREADY gave you the verses . . .

James 2:21-22
Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and HIS FAITH WAS MADE COMPLETE by what he did.

1 Cor. 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Catholic faith doesn't seem to be. It would also seem that per Hebrews 1:1 that pistis is hope, but it, the trust, is about trusting things not yet seen. And don't pretend trust has nothing doing with allegiance.

If anything – the Catholic idea of faith is MUCH richer and meaningful than the Protestant definition that YOU propose.

 

[GodsGrace]

As I indicated before – trust is but ONE of several meanings of pistis - along with belief and faithfulness.

I ALREADY gave you the verses . . .

James 2:21-22
Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and HIS FAITH WAS MADE COMPLETE by what he did.

1 Cor. 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

I truly hate spending my time trying to define words....
but @MonoBiblical apparently does not understand that in the infamous GREEK language of long ago,
BELIEVE implied obedience
DISBELIEF implied disobedience.

It's just a fact.
And mono can look this up for himself and learn something.

 

[GodsGrace]

Catholic faith doesn't seem to be. It would also seem that per Hebrews 1:1 that pistis is hope, but it, the trust, is about trusting things not yet seen. And don't pretend trust has nothing doing with allegiance.

The Catholic faith teaches what the Protestant faith does...
except some Protestants prefer to believe MEN instead of GOD.

Let me ask you this Mono, since you believe in SOLA FIDE, which is taught nowhere in the NT:

Did Jesus command us to love our neighbor?

 

[MonoBiblical]

Agape - unconditional/sacrificial love

It is not unconditional, it is the equivalent of the equivalent of the English word consideration.

NO. He believed Him. He didn't have faith in Him.

Yes, he trusted him and had blind faith.

Not the ones I know, who are very knowledgeable.

Are you sure they aren't overeducated ignoramuses?

I ALREADY gave you the verses . . .

James 2:21-22
Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and HIS FAITH WAS MADE COMPLETE by what he did.

1 Cor. 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

James 2:22d ἐκ τῶν ἔργων ἡ πίστις ἐτελειώθη out of some works, a trust it an accomplishes. Sorry but works don't fill or complete, but they accomplish it trust as needed.

Secondly, trust without the Holy Spirit cannot move mountains.