Why the great chain?

[Adventageous]

Ellen G.White, In 7th Day Adventist Garbage

"No" Jesus Christ Isn't Michael The Archangel

Are you aware that Ellen G. White, though Seventh-day Adventist, began as a Methodist?

Are you aware that there are Methodists who taught Jesus = Michael? Which means that the Seventh-day Adventists did not originate the doctrine / teaching / belief?

Are you aware that the doctrine of Michael = Jesus is held, in the Christian churches, since the 1st century AD in post-scriptural writings, even until the present day?

Are you aware that it is not only the Seventh-day Adventist movement who share that historically held teaching, but by many others, past and present)?

Simply saying, "Garbage", without any scriptural evidence, and / or historical continuity, is a strong indication of a very weak position. I am not speaking of you as a person, but the position taken itself.

The evidence is quite overwhelming, perhaps you may consider a one to one conversation in another thread, so as not to derail this thread to a differing subject? Here is the book on the subject so that you do not have a lack of background on the subject and may speak with me on equal grounds. - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Would you be willing to speak with me one to one in another thread on this subject (Jesus = Michael)? If not, I will leave to your prerogative, and will leave you to be, so as not to force the issue. Thank you for the consideration.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

If this is literal and satan is locked and sealed in the abyss why would there even be a need for a great chain?

Great question. Why would there be a need for a chain at all if he was locked and sealed in a literal place? That would make no sense. That's why his binding is clearly symbolic and should not be taken literally as if he was literally bound with a literal chain that completely incapacitates him. If the purpose of the great chain was to completely incapacitate him, then why wouldn't it be a small chain instead? And why would the abyss need to be sealed if he's already literally chained up? It simply makes no sense to interpret his binding literally. Most Premils will acknowledge that the binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:29 relates to a binding of Satan, but they do not claim that the binding of the strong man results in the strong man being completely incapacitated. So, why do they insist on the binding of Satan in Revelation 20, a chapter contained within the most highly symbolic book in the Bible, being a literal binding?

What is the purpose of the great chain?

To keep Satan from deceiving the people of the world (the "ethnos"), which Amils like us understand to be related to keeping Satan from keeping the world in complete spiritual darkness like it was in Old Testament times to the extent that Paul said that the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" in those times before Jesus came (Ephesians 2:11-13).

What is the great chain?

I believe it represents the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right, the Lamb has to be slain before the seals are opened.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I believe that is a poor translation of that verse and this is a better one...

Revelation 13:8 All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered. (NASB)

It's the Lamb's book of life that has been written from the foundation of the world. The Lamb, Jesus, was slain about 2,000 years ago, not from the foundation of the world.

 

[Marty fox]

Great question. Why would there be a need for a chain at all if he was locked and sealed in a literal place? That would make no sense. That's why his binding is clearly symbolic and should not be taken literally as if he was literally bound with a literal chain that completely incapacitates him. If the purpose of the great chain was to completely incapacitate him, then why wouldn't it be a small chain instead? And why would the abyss need to be sealed if he's already literally chained up? It simply makes no sense to interpret his binding literally. Most Premils will acknowledge that the binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:29 relates to a binding of Satan, but they do not claim that the binding of the strong man results in the strong man being completely incapacitated. So, why do they insist on the binding of Satan in Revelation 20, a chapter contained within the most highly symbolic book in the Bible, being a literal binding?


To keep Satan from deceiving the people of the world (the "ethnos"), which Amils like us understand to be related to keeping Satan from keeping the world in complete spiritual darkness like it was in Old Testament times to the extent that Paul said that the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" in those times before Jesus came (Ephesians 2:11-13).


I believe it represents the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes amen thanks and yes I can’t understand why premills think literally

 

[Marty fox]

Revelation 20 is future, not now. Scripture does not place Satan’s binding at the cross or at Pentecost.

John is explicit. Satan is bound, sealed in the abyss, and prevented from deceiving the nations, then later released to deceive them again ~Revelation 20:1–8. That sequence has never occurred in history. It cannot be spiritualized without emptying the text of meaning.

Acts 2 describes the outpouring of the Spirit, not the imprisonment of Satan. Those are two different works. The gospel advancing does not require Satan to be bound. Jesus Himself said Satan still snatches the word from hearts during this age ~Matthew 13:19.

Scripture written after Pentecost says Satan is active, not bound. He blinds unbelievers ~2 Corinthians 4:4. He deceives the whole world ~1 John 5:19. He roams and devours ~1 Peter 5:8. A sealed enemy does none of that.

You are redefining “deceive the nations” to mean “cannot stop some people from believing.” That is not what Revelation says. The nations today are still deceived, still in rebellion, still raging against Christ ~Psalm 2.

The gospel saves individuals now. Satan’s binding comes when Christ returns and judges the nations. Revelation is allowed to mean what it says.

This is not interpretation preference. This is submission to the text.

You obviously don’t understand what amils believe the binding actually is. I don’t believe what you think I believe in you post.

Why is the purpose of the binding for a thousand years if billions of people switch side as soon as satan is released?

 

[Marty fox]

What do you think? Didn't you read Scripture ab out Melchizedek, Rabah, Ruth, Jethro, Caleb, Naaman the Syrian, Widow of Zarephath, people of Nineveh, Uriah the Hittite, and even God's promise to include Gentiles:

Isaiah 56:3-7
(3) Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
(4) For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
(6) Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
(7) Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.



Ahh... this is a common "Satan must be bound before Gentiles can be saved, even in the Old Testament" argument. Let examine with Scirpture carefully:
You are correct that there is on true spiritual Israel, making up of both Jews and Gentiles based on:

One Covenant Promise (Genesis 12:3)
One way of Salvation, live by faith (Hab 2:4)
One people defined spiritually, not ethnically (Romans 2:28-29, Galatians 3:29, Ephesians 2:12-19).

There is no second Israel and no replacement - only expansion and revelation of the same people.

Here’s the symmetry you’re sensing (and you’re right to see it):

​

Era​	Majority Access​	Minority Saved​	Reason​
Old Testament​	Jews​	Some Gentiles​	Faith​
New Testament​	Gentiles​	Some Jews​	Faith​

But the reason isn’t to “balance the scales.”


It’s to prove

Romans 11:32
“God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all”

You need to keep in mind that God's saving focus has always been FAITH, not ethnicity.



One word : False.

Gentiles were indeed saved as I explained above.

Yes the OT is full of saved people before ethnic Israel started they are true Israel spiritual Israel

 

[TribulationSigns]

There is no second Israel and no replacement - only expansion and revelation of the same people. Of FAITH.

Covenant Israel consists of the same people—Jews and Gentiles united in God’s redemptive plan. This is why the ram in Daniel 8 represents Congregation/Covenant Israel with two horns. In Scripture, horns symbolize power and authority:

Dan 8:3
(3) Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

The first horn represents the power of the Old Testament congregation, while the second horn represents the power of the New Testament congregation, which came up last, after the first — yet is greater than the first. Why is it higher? Because Christ established His Kingdom at the Cross, which the congregation Israel has fell but rebuilt in three days and has expanded (not replaced by) into the New Testament Congregation, a kingdom not limited to one nation, but expanded to include both Jews and Gentiles under the New Covenant.

Something to think about.

 

[Douggg]

The bottomless pit is a place of isolation from the rest of creation. Similar to a prison that isolates inmates from the rest of society.

Prison inmates are bound by various methods when taken there. Likewise, the great chain, whether symbolic, physical, or spiritual, represents the binding of Satan as he is cast into the bottomless pit, following Jesus's return. Jesus is wonderful.

B - Believe God
L - Love God
T - Trust God

 

[grafted branch]

Before there was a nation called Israel, God chose some Gentiles to be saved, from whom the promised birth of the Saviour would physically come. There had to be some Gentiles saved before Israel became a nation to provide the lineage from whom Christ would come.

I think we all would agree that some people were being saved prior to the old covenant and nation of Israel, and Satan wasn’t bound at that time. This in itself should be proof enough that an unbound Satan can’t prevent people from becoming saved.

Since Israel alone possessed the means of salvation for whosoever believed before the advent of Christ, when Israel became a nation with Law, prophets, priests and King, if a Gentile desired to belong to the Covenant body of God (become saved), they must convert and become as a Jew committing to be obedient to all the Laws of Old, the prophets, priests and Kings. If a Gentile did not convert and become as the Jew they could not be eternally saved because Israel alone, through the prophets possessed knowledge of the promised Messiah ordained to come to redeem those of faith from the curse of the Law and eternal death.

After the old covenant is created and Israel becomes a nation, it appears that you have absolutely no person outside of the nation Israel being saved. If a person outside of Israel does have faith, they will go to the nation Israel and assimilate into that nation and follow the old covenant. It appears you would say it’s impossible at that time to have saving faith and not assimilate into the nation of Israel.

That's why John writes that only "nations" (Gentiles) were deceived and that deception would be lifted from them if/when they heard the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed and according to grace through faith believe in Christ for eternal life. None of the nations could know this until after Christ literally came with the Kingdom of God and commanded His saints to proclaim the gospel of Kingdom of God must be preached unto ALL without distinction, (both Jew & Gentile) and all who believe have eternal life through Christ.

It also seems that you’re saying that if the gospel of the coming kingdom would’ve been preached to Gentiles, prior to the cross, they would’ve believed and assimilated into the nation of Israel but since it wasn’t preached, that’s how Satan deceived them. Based on that I would say Satan had power over Israel, the saved people, rather than the Gentiles but I don’t want to argue that point.



Here’s how I see it, the old covenant was made to the nation of Israel, which had allowances for Gentiles to assimilate, but that covenant wasn’t universal or made to Gentile nations. The new covenant is not made to any particular nation, it is universal, a person can remain in any nation and still be saved under that covenant.

The gospel not going to the Gentiles prior to the cross has to do with the covenant, not about whether Satan was bound or not. Since the new covenant is eternal the conditions of that covenant never cease yet a person who ties the conditions of the covenants to the binding of Satan will run into issues when Satan is loosed because it would imply that the new covenant, at least in part, ends.

 

[bdavidc]

You obviously don’t understand what amils believe the binding actually is. I don’t believe what you think I believe in you post.

Why is the purpose of the binding for a thousand years if billions of people switch side as soon as satan is released?

I’m not interested in chasing labels. If your view of “binding” is different than what I described, then state it from the text. The issue is not what amils call it. The issue is what John wrote.

John does not describe a partial restraint. He describes an angel laying hold of Satan, binding him, casting him into the abyss, shutting him in, and sealing it, “that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season” ~Revelation 20:1–3. That is confinement with a stated purpose and a stated time limit.

Now your question. Why bind him for a thousand years if many rebel when he is released?

Because the thousand years are not about proving how good man is. Scripture already settled that. “There is none righteous, no, not one” ~Romans 3:10, and “the heart is deceitful above all things” ~Jeremiah 17:9. Even with Satan restrained, the flesh does not turn into holiness. Men still love darkness unless God gives life and repentance. “Men loved darkness rather than light” ~John 3:19.

The purpose of the binding is explicitly stated: “that he should deceive the nations no more” for that period ~Revelation 20:3. In other words, God stops Satan’s global deceiving campaign for a defined season, and Christ’s reign and judgment move forward exactly as God decreed. When the thousand years are finished, Satan is released and he “shall go out to deceive the nations” again ~Revelation 20:7–8. That release does not mean everyone flips. It means he successfully gathers a massive revolt from “the four quarters of the earth” ~Revelation 20:8. A great number can rebel without it being “all.”

And that final revolt serves a second purpose that Revelation itself shows: it brings evil to its appointed end in open daylight, and then God crushes it decisively. Fire comes down, the devil is thrown into the lake of fire, and the great white throne judgment follows ~Revelation 20:9–15. Nobody gets to say, “God didn’t give man a fair run.” Even after a long season with Satan restrained, the unregenerate still choose rebellion when given the chance. That exposes the real problem as the sinner’s heart, not merely the tempter’s influence.

So the answer is right in the passage. Binding is for a defined restraint of Satan’s deception of the nations for that period ~Revelation 20:3. Release is for a short, final deception that ends in final judgment ~Revelation 20:7–15. That does not embarrass the text. It fulfills it.

If you think “binding” in Revelation 20 means something other than what the verbs and the stated purpose say, then put your definition on the table using Scripture words, not a label.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The bottomless pit is a place of isolation from the rest of creation. Similar to a prison that isolates inmates from the rest of society.

Prison inmates are bound by various methods when taken there. Likewise, the great chain, whether symbolic, physical, or spiritual, represents the binding of Satan as he is cast into the bottomless pit, following Jesus's return. Jesus is wonderful.

B - Believe God
L - Love God
T - Trust God

So, you allow for the possibility of the great chain being symbolic, but can't allow for Satan's binding itself to be symbolic rather than literal? How does that make any sense?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m not interested in chasing labels. If your view of “binding” is different than what I described, then state it from the text. The issue is not what amils call it. The issue is what John wrote.

John does not describe a partial restraint. He describes an angel laying hold of Satan, binding him, casting him into the abyss, shutting him in, and sealing it, “that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season” ~Revelation 20:1–3. That is confinement with a stated purpose and a stated time limit.

So, you believe that a spirit being like Satan can somehow be literally bound with a literal chain that literally prevents him from doing anything?

 

[bdavidc]

So, you believe that a spirit being like Satan can somehow be literally bound with a literal chain that literally prevents him from doing anything?

This has already been explained to you. I already showed that Scripture uses binding and chains to describe real restraint by God’s authority over spiritual beings, not metal hardware ~Jude 1:6. I already showed that the issue in Revelation 20 is what the binding accomplishes, not what the chain is made of ~Revelation 20:3.

This question has been answered. Reframing it as “how can a spirit be bound with a chain” is a deflection from the text, not an engagement with it. Revelation 20 is clear. Satan is bound so he cannot deceive the nations, then later released. That condition does not exist now. I have already shown this from Scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

This has already been explained to you. I already showed that Scripture uses binding and chains to describe real restraint by God’s authority over spiritual beings, not metal hardware ~Jude 1:6.

i think you and SI would agree on this...

I already showed that the issue in Revelation 20 is what the binding accomplishes, not what the chain is made of ~Revelation 20:3.

And this...

Revelation 20 is clear.

It is, yes... to many. <smile> But that does not mean, necessarily, that for others, they are not Christians.

Satan is bound so he cannot deceive the nations, then later released.

Right; we would agree on this, and SI does, too.

That condition does not exist now.

It does. If you are a Gentile Christian as I am, then you are concrete proof that Satan is bound from deceiving the nations. He is. But yes, when the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in, and the partial hardening of Israel removed, and thus all of Israel saved (Romans 11:25-26), then will be the end of this age, the end of the "thousand years," and then he will be released for a short time (Revelation 20:3), but for the sake of the elect will be cut short (Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20).

I have already shown this from Scripture.

Welllllllll... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Douggg]

So, you allow for the possibility of the great chain being symbolic, but can't allow for Satan's binding itself to be symbolic rather than literal? How does that make any sense?

The bottomless pit is a place of isolation from the rest of creation. The bottomless pit is likened to a prison in Revelation 20:7.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

which then Satan will go out and deceive the nations into one last rebellion.

 

[PinSeeker]

View attachment 78713

Isn't it amazing how all these threads end up on the same two or three topics... Or maybe not so much. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Doug.

 

[Davidpt]

So before crying “heresy,” do what Scripture commands:

• Prove all things (1 Thess. 5:21)
  

According to Genesis 2 and 3, what humans, who for a fact were in the garden at the time, do we know were there? The Man(Adam) and the Woman(Eve). The account mentions no more humans. Who was it then that the woman was conversing with in Genesis 3:2-5? Was she conversing with herself or something? Did she maybe have multiple personalities?

And finally, how many judgments did it involve? Just 2? Keeping in mind only 2 humans in the garden at the time. Isn't the real truth that 3 entities were judged not just 2? So who was this 3rd entity? Was it one of the woman's multiple personalities? Such as "Sybil: Famous multiple personality case?

1) Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel


2) 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

3) 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


2 humans in the garden at the time, yet 3 judgments. And you want us to believe absurd nonsense that satan isn't a created being. That maybe judgment 1) above was in regards to one of the woman's multiple personalities. Since I'm certain that 1 + 1 +1 does not equal 2. It equals 3. Maybe where you come from it equals 2. But not where I come from. Therefore, your heretical nonsense is debunked. The fact that there is this proposed nonsense to begin with is pure nonsense alone.

And guess what? It looks like I just proved all things from Genesis 2 and 3 alone.

 

[Douggg]

Isn't it amazing how all these threads end up on the same two or three topics... Or maybe not so much. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Doug.

Thanks. Grace and peace to you, as well.

 

[PinSeeker]

Who was it then that the woman was conversing with in Genesis 3:2-5? Was she conversing with herself or something?

Satan, David. The serpent is... was... Satan.

Did she maybe have multiple personalities?

LOL! Never heard that one before... <smile>

And finally, how many judgments did it involve? Just 2? Keeping in mind only 2 humans in the garden at the time. Isn't the real truth that 3 entities were judged not just 2?

Really just one, as Adam and Eve were one flesh, as all covenant married couples are, even today. And no, this does not mean they were (or we married people) are, one person, as you well know. <smile> The one judgment is on all of humanity, from that point forward.

Oh, I see; you're talking about the curse placed on Satan. Okay, yes, two. <smile>

2 humans in the garden at the time, yet 3 judgments.

Two.

And guess what?

Whut? <smile>

It looks like I just proved all things from Genesis 2 and 3 alone.

I mean, nobody is depriving you of your thoughts and opinions, right? As if they even could...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

LOL! Never heard that one before... <smile>

Neither have I. That just came to mind. One time I was conversing with a Shepherd's Chapel student some years back where he was insisting that the serpent was not satan, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was satan. What came to mind at that time was this. Does that mean this is where and when the act of ventriloquism came into being? That the TOTKOGAE was throwing it's voice giving the impression the serpent was speaking?

Just the way my mind operates. I react to absurd nonsense by countering with some absurd nonsense of my own. Except in my case, my absurd nonsense is in order to make a point and not something I actually believe. While OTOH, they actually believe the absurd nonsense they are proposing and hope some of us are silly enough to believe it with them.