The point was, since that was the portion of his post that I quoted, where it commands proving all things---well, didn't I just do that via Genesis 2 and 3 alone?
Why the great chain?
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The point was, since that was the portion of his post that I quoted, where it commands proving all things---well, didn't I just do that via Genesis 2 and 3 alone?
And if satan can rebel against God after having literally been in God's presence, and that satan knew for a fact God was his creator, one is to believe man can't do the same? It will be obvious to all of mankind during the millennium that God Himself is bodily on the planet and ruling it. Yet some would have us believe, if that were true, it is absurd that anyone would rebel later on. Yet satan did exactly that but no one thinks that's absurd.
TribulationSigns
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Well, tradition is a HARD thing to break out of, no matter what tradition it is. And the traditional images of a created good angel in heaven before cast down to Earth as a literal serpent enticing Eve and Adam is ingrained in our minds and it is not easy to come to the belief that the Bible uses so much symbolism to paint a picture that spiritually is a lot different from literal serpent being, a literal mark or the literal country of Israel. Likewise that God didn't create evil and wars aren't fought in spiritual heaven, only in the kingdom of heaven on Earth.
Satan is NOT a created being God. He is a spirit of evil in all unsaved people becasue of the fall. This is why Satan was introduced in the garden of Eden right at the time of the fall. Man was perfect, and then by LUST for the fruit, that desire (spirit) brought forth sin.
You need to understand that Satan is a spirit of disobedience. It is consistent with Scripture in that disobedience comes from man's LUSTS or DESIRES that are contrary to God's Word. Man's own lusts and desires conceives sin. That is when iniquity was found in them! For example, Eve heard God's Word said, don't eat the fruit and Eve sat here thinking maybe God didn't really mean don't eat that fruit, so I go and eat the fruit. That is from Eve's SPIRIT that lusted to envy. And that spirit is called Satan.
And here is another example:
Matthew 16:22-23
(22) Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
(23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Did Christ think Peter was Satan, or was the term Satan meant to show Peter was being adversarial to him? An adversary is someone who opposes God's word or will. It is someone with the spirit to disobey or be adversarial. Was Peter being adversarial? Are all those who reject God's word being adversarial and an offense to God? I'd say yes.
1Ti 5:14
(14) I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
Who is the adversary in that passage. It's the unsaved with the spirit of disobedience. God is saying don't give an occasion to thee enemies of his to speak in opposition to the gospel. The adversary of the gospel isn't some supernatural angel. It is man with the spirit to oppose God.
The spirit was CONCEIVED within Adam and Eve when they disobeyed. Satan or the Serpent was merely SYMBOLIC of THAT spirit. You don't pick up literal serpents, do you? So you need to understand that Christ was using the serpents as symbolically, not someone Christ said He created.
John 8:43-44
(43)Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
(44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Christ tells us Satan was NEVER righteous, but was a murderous spirit from the beginning. The Bible NEVER once says Satan was once a righteous being. The Bible never once says Satan was once perfect and of truth, it says just the opposite! That he wasn't, he was always a liar. The only people who say that are people who don't understand you cannot contradict one scripture with another scripture. If Satan was perfect until the day iniquity was found in him, then he was not a liar from the beginning. The same contradiction of God talking about a Serpent being in heaven and a large group of Christians taking what is obviously, and I mean very obviously symbolic, and attempting to read it as a literal narrative of a Angelic battle in God's holy heaven where a Serpent is cast out.
Spiritual Israelite
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Oh, really? Not very well then.
Jude 1:6 is figurative, also. Do you really think the fallen angels haven't been doing anything the past 2,000 years?
You don't understand what it has been accomplishing for almost 2,000 years. Are you aware that in OT times the world was in almost complete spiritual darkness? To the point where Paul said that the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without Christ" and "without God in the world"? How about in NT times? Has the world had "no hope" and been "without Christ" and "without God"? No, right? A great multitude from all nations that no one can count has been saved in NT times (Revelation 7:9). What the binding of Satan accomplished is allowing the light of the gospel to spread throughout the world to all nations where no spiritual light had been before in OT times so that Satan could no longer keep the people of those nations in spiritual darkness and in bondage to the fear of death. The following passage relates to the binding of Satan:
Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Do you understand that in OT times the devil, Satan, had the power of death that he wielded over the people of the world to keep them in bondage to the fear of death without hope of eternal life after death? Through His death, Christ destroyed the devil in the sense of taking the power of death away from him and setting free many of the people that he previously was able to keep in bondage to the fear of death. That is what the binding of Satan is about. It's not about a spirit being not being able to do anything because of being literally chained up in a prison.
It's a question you should be willing to answer. When your interpretation involves the nonsensical idea of a spirit being having a literal chain somehow literal binding him, you need to rethink your interpretation. You also need to take the rest of scripture into account so that you don't contradict other scripture and you get your understanding of symbolic text from the more literal, clear text found in other scripture.
It's clearly symbolic just as most of the rest of the book of Revelation. Interpreting the book as literally as you do only leads to confusing and contradictions of other scripture.
Your understanding of his binding causing him to be completely incapacitated doesn't exist now, but that's not what his binding means.
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bdavidc
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PinSeeker, calling this a difference among Christians does not answer the text. Revelation 20 is not subjective, and it is not proven by personal experience.
Revelation states the purpose of the binding plainly. Satan is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3. That is not about whether individual Gentiles can be saved. It is about the condition of the nations as nations. Scripture repeatedly testifies that this condition does not exist now.
John says without qualification, “the whole world lieth in wickedness” ~1 John 5:19. Paul says Satan “blinds the minds of them which believe not” ~2 Corinthians 4:4. Peter warns believers that the devil “walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” ~1 Peter 5:8. None of that language fits a restrained adversary who is unable to deceive the nations.
Gentile salvation is not evidence of Satan’s binding. Scripture never makes that argument. The gospel advances despite satanic activity, not because Satan is restrained. Paul preached to Gentiles while Satan actively opposed him. “O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil” ~Acts 13:10. “We would have come unto you… but Satan hindered us” ~1 Thessalonians 2:18. The power is in the gospel itself, “the power of God unto salvation” ~Romans 1:16.
Romans 11 does not redefine Revelation 20. The fulness of the Gentiles ~Romans 11:25 occurs during “this present evil world” ~Galatians 1:4, not during a restored age where deception of the nations has ceased. Revelation 20 describes a future restraint that results in a worldwide condition that has never yet existed.
Saying “it seems clear to many” sidesteps the issue. Scripture is clear. The binding in Revelation 20 accomplishes something specific, and that result is not present now. Grace and peace are not served by softening the text. The Word of God settles the matter whether it is comfortable or not.
Spiritual Israelite
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Is it too difficult for you to actually address what I said? You allow for the possibility that the great chain is symbolic, but somehow you don't allow for the possibility of the bottomless pit to be symbolic or for Satan's binding itself to be symbolic rather than a literal binding with a chain the way you would think of a human being literally bound with a literal chain?
bdavidc
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Agreed. It's already demonstrated from Scripture.
Satan rebelled against God KNOWING who God was and that God had created him. That alone demonstrates that proximity to, knowledge of or obvious authority does not make someone obedient. The same is true of man. Israel had seen God's display of power and still rebelled ~Exodus 16-17; ~Numbers 14.
Revelation 20 never says that the millennium changes/renews hearts. It simply says Satan is prevented from deceiving the nations ~Rev. 20:3. When he is let loose, unregenerate hearts turn away just as Scripture has always taught ~Rev. 20:7-8; ~John 3:19.
That's not ridiculous. That's exactly what the text states.
Spiritual Israelite
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Have you never seen the posts where WPM and I refuted his nonsense that Satan is not a created being? It has nothing to do with being Amil. We have refuted that unbiblical nonsense multiple times and he stubbornly insists on continuing to believe it. He not only doesn't believe that a created being named Satan exists, but he doesn't even believe angels exist at all. I can't take him seriously.
I know one of the people who liked his post does believe that Satan is a created being, so I have no idea why he liked that post and others that are similar to it.
bdavidc
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You are building a straw man and then congratulating yourself for knocking it down.
I never said a spirit needs metal hardware. I explicitly said Scripture uses “bind,” “chains,” “shut,” and “seal” to describe real restraint by God’s authority over spiritual beings ~Jude 1:6; ~Revelation 20:1–3. The issue is not what the chain is made of. The issue is what the binding accomplishes.
And John tells us what it accomplishes in plain words: Satan is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season” ~Revelation 20:3. That is not “some limitation.” That is a defined restraint with a stated purpose and a stated time limit.
Your Hebrews 2 appeal does not redefine Revelation 20. Hebrews 2:14–15 says Christ, through death, destroyed the one who had the power of death and delivers those in lifelong bondage to fear of death. Amen. But Hebrews does not say Satan is unable to deceive the nations now, nor does it say the “thousand years” are the church age. You are importing a framework into Revelation instead of letting Revelation define its own terms.
Right now, Scripture still describes Satan as actively working. He “walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” ~1 Peter 5:8. He blinds minds ~2 Corinthians 4:4. The whole world still lies in wickedness ~1 John 5:19. That is why the command to resist him is present tense ~James 4:7. Whatever victory Christ won at the cross, it did not result in the Revelation 20:3 condition yet.
Also, you are wrong to claim my view requires “complete incapacitation.” Revelation 20 does not say Satan can do nothing. It says he is restrained for a specific purpose: “that he should deceive the nations no more” for that period ~Revelation 20:3. That is the point under debate, and it is exactly what is not true of the present world.
Finally, saying “Revelation is symbolic” is not an argument. The question is what the symbols mean. John interprets the key result for us in straightforward language, and then he repeats it at the end: after the thousand years, Satan is loosed and “shall go out to deceive the nations” ~Revelation 20:7–8. If he is already doing that now, then the stated purpose of the binding is emptied of meaning.
So here is the simple issue. Does the present world match “that he should deceive the nations no more” until the thousand years are finished ~Revelation 20:3? Scripture says no.
Let's break the first 3 verses down like such.
A) an angel comes down from heaven
B) having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
C) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan
D) and bound him a thousand years,
E) And cast him into the bottomless pit
F) and shut him up
G) and set a seal upon him
H) that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled
I) and after that he must be loosed a little season
Does not the great chain in his hand accomplish D)? Isn't that what a chain typically does? Binds something?
And what about A) and C)? In order to accomplish C), doesn't A) have to be fulfilled first? In order to lay hold on and cast into, doesn't this require that what is being laid hold of is dwelling where the one meant in A) is coming down to? Where is the one in A) coming down to? The earth, obviously. Already the scene is not heaven, it is the earth. Since it is absurd that to come down from heaven does not mean to come down to the earth. But that it means to come down from heaven to heaven.
Which then raises the question. Why would satan be dwelling on the earth and when did he initially start doing so? Doesn't the following tell us exactly that?
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 ¶Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
When Revelation 20:1-3 is initially meaning, it has to be meaning after verses 7-12 have been fulfilled first since this clearly has satan dwelling upon the earth.
Yet look what happens next.
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Notice what the text says--when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth. Obviously meaning right after he is cast unto the earth since it would be absurd that he doesn't notice he was cast unto the earth until sometime much later, rather than at that time.
Then notice what happens once he sees he has been cast unto the earth--- And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ
Seriously, does any of that even remotely sound like anything recorded in Revelation 20:1-3?
If you think it does, then point out the similarities. Keep in mind, before satan is cast unto the earth, before the war in heaven, satan was doing this at the time, for one--
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Does any of that sound like anything in Revelation 20:1-3, that the thousand years involved the days of Job? The point I'm trying to bring out is this. There are only 2 places satan's binding can fit. Either before the war in heaven before he is cast unto the earth. Or after the war in heaven when he is cast unto the earth. As to the latter there are 2 options, actually.
Option 1) Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Option 2) Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
As to option 1, meaning at that time.
As to option 2, meaning after this war is fulfilled first, the same war Revelation 13:7 is involving.
Spiritual Israelite
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I told you what it accomplishes.
Redefine? No, it explains what the symbolism means. Why do you try to interpret the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture as literally as you possibly can? Is that a good approach to interpreting the book of Revelation? Definitely not.
You are reading Revelation 20 very literally for some reason. Do you not think that spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit is required to understand things like this (read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 before you answer)? The question is what is Revelation 20 talking about when it talks about Satan deceiving the nations. His general ability to deceive or something else? It does not look like you have put much thought into this and that you are relying completely on your own flawed human wisdom to understand the text.
The fact that all we need to do is resist him and he must flee from us supports the Amil view. This was not the case in Old Testament times. In those times Satan held the power of death and no one could resist him. He help people in bondage to the fear of death, as Hebrews 2:14-15. But, now that we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, we can resist him through the power of the Holy Spirit and he must flee because he knows that he can't contend with the Holy Spirit. He has no power over believers now and no power to keep the gospel from being preached throughout the world, resulting in a great multitude of people that no one can count being set free from the bondage to the fear of death and instead having the hope of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
You are the first Premil that I've ever seen who has said this. All other Premils I've seen believe that Satan's binding results in him being incapacitated and unable to do anything at all. I agree that it doesn't say that Satan can do nothing, but we obviously disagree with what it means for him to deceive the nations, with you believing it refers generally to his ability to deceive. But, since you acknowledge that it doesn't say he can do nothing while bound, what exactly do you think Satan can do while he is bound?
I didn't say it was. It's a statement to make you think instead of just assuming Revelation 20 is all literal.
The whole description of the dragon (obviously representing Satan) being bound with a great chain in an abyss/prison is symbolic. But, you take the deceiving of the nations very literally in the sense of his general ability to deceive. Why take that part so literally when the whole scenario is symbolic for something in relation to Satan?
Make up your mind. Is Revelation 20 symbolic or written in straightforward language?
Not according to your understanding of what his binding entails, but I disagree with your understanding of what his binding entails.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This is not a valid argument. You are using a passage that talks about Satan persecuting believers and saying the timing of that can't relate to what is described in Revelation 20:1-3, which says nothing about Satan's ability to persecute believers one way or another. You are proving nothing with this argument.
Are you going to argue that the war involving Revelation 13:7 is not during a time when satan is deceiving the nations? Revelation 20 makes it clear that first he is deceiving the nations, then he no longer is, then he is deceiving the nations again. And that Revelation 13:7 is either meaning before he is is bound or after he is bound.
Except it can't be the latter when Revelation 20:4 already proves otherwise--and I saw the souls of them--which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(compare with Revelation 13 since Scripture interprets Scripture. Unless you want to argue that Scripture does not interpret Scripture. Which is what you would be inferring in this case if you deny that the martyrs in Revelation 20:4 that I submitted, that their martyrdom occurs during the 42 month reign of the beast. Would not be anything I would want to argue, though)
And that during the thousand years this is not an option, period, since Revelation 13 demands that both satan and the beast can't be in the pit at the time. Not to mention, there is a 2nd beast to factor in here as well, meaning the false prophet. But until Revelation 13:14 is fulfilled first, regardless what it looks like when fulfilled, there is no image to worship or not worship, nor is there a mark to take or not take in the meantime. Both require a beast that has a deadly wound and is healed.
That's what the image and mark is in regards to. Meaning after it ascends from the pit, not while it's in the pit nor before it's in the pit. As if it makes sense that one of it's heads has a deadly wound that is healed before it is in the pit, or while it's in the pit, rather than once it ascends from the pit.
Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.[\u]
Amil tries to place the beast and satan in the pit during the thousand years, but this breaks the logical connection, because if the beast is restrained, who enforces the image and mark? If the beast’s deadly wound is healed, why is it in the pit? The martyrs in Revelation 20:4 are specifically martyred for refusing the image/mark in regards to the beast which had the wound by a sword, and did live, so the image/mark must exist at the same time as the martyrdom. This is an argument Amil cannot explain coherently.
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TribulationSigns
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Incorrect.
Strong’s Greek G1484 — ἐθνικός (ethnikós)
Basic meaning:Gentile, heathen, pagan; one belonging to the nations.
In the biblical sense, ethnikós is used specifically of non-Jews in a spiritual and covenantal sense. It refers to those outside the Covenant of Israel, those without the Law of God, and those who do not know the true God.
Therefore, the “nations” mentioned in Revelation 20 are not geopolitical nation-states such as the United States or Japan. Rather, they refer to unsaved Gentiles who are deceived by Satan.
It is incorrect to assume that Revelation 20 is about improving the condition of physical nations. It is not. Revelation 20 concerns the restraint of Satan’s deceptive influence, so that the Gentiles (the nations) are no longer deceived. In other words, it speaks of salvation, not geopolitics.
You also need to study Matthew 12 carefully:
Matthew 12:28–29 (KJV)
(28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
The strong man is Satan.
His house is the realm of spiritual bondage.
Christ binds Satan in order to spoil his house—and what is being spoiled is people, not physical nations.
Christ did not bind Satan so that the political or economic conditions of earthly nations could improve for a limited period of time. He bound Satan to liberate those held in deception and bring them into salvation.
Selah!
Oh yes! You are denying this Biblical facts. Before Christ went to the Cross, Gentiles (unsaved) were decevied:
Acts 14:16
“Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”
Ephesians 2:11–12
“Gentiles in the flesh… without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel…”
Ephesians 4:17–18
“…having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God…”
The Great Commission proves Satan is bound:
Mat 28:18-19
(18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Paul explicitly says Satan's power is curtailed:
Col 2:15
(15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Heb 2:14
(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Therefore Revelation 20 explained plainly:
Revealtion 20:3
(3) That he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled..."
"Nations" = Gentiles (ethnikos)
"Deceive no more" = the gospel now reaches them
"Binding" = restriction of Satan's authority to prevent global deception...until after all gentiles be coming in. In other word, after all Elect are secured, Revelation 7:1-4.
If Gentiles are being saved since the Cross, the binding must already be in effect. Not in the future according to your false vision of improving condition of geopolitical nations.
Binding does not mean:
Satan is inactive Sin disappears Governments become righteous Evil ceases in the worldBinding does mean:
Satan can no longer block the gospel from the nations Gentiles are brought into covenant Christ plunders Satan’s house continuously until all gentiles be coming in.
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Why can't they instead refer to the saved that fall away? Makes better sense at least. It's not like apostacy won't be rampant during the 42 month reign of the beast which also involves much of 2 Thessalonians 2. It's not like NOSAS is not Biblical. But Amil wants these in Revelation 20:8 to be meaning unsaved Gentiles. Who would already be deceived during Amil's proposed millennium to begin with, the fact they are not saved during it. So satan then needs to deceive them even more. As if they are not condemned enough already, the fact they are in a lost state during Amil's proposed millennium, not a saved state. Really makes a lot of sense, not.
TribulationSigns
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I am sorry but you lack spiritual understanding. Typical premillennial blindness.
Truth7t7
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I lack spiritual discernment if I take 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 to be involving both Matthew 24:15-26, and the 42 month reign of the beast, except none of these things are involving a literal city in the middle east and a literal temple there? But I lack spiritual discernment? What do I do then? Take all those things in the literal sense which then contradicts a spiritual sense?
If Amil is correct about the millennium and satan's little season, the only thing that makes sense is that it is involving some of the saved who are saved during the final days and years of the millennium, then fall away during the beast's 42 month reign after the millennium. But even that can't work. The 42 month reign of the beast precedes the beginning of the millennium, not parallels nor follows after the millennium.
TribulationSigns
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Clearly, you have misunderstood the purpose of Christ’s “millennial” kingdom.
If Amillennialism is correct—and the millennial kingdom runs from the Cross (when Satan was bound) until the Second Coming—then please explain the following:
- When will Satan be released from the bottomless pit?
- Why will Satan be released from the bottomless pit?
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