Why the great chain?

[JustMe]

Those demonic locusts that came out of the bottomless pit is vivid imagery that reminds me of the sounds of the uniform lockstep movements of the the iron clad destructive Roman armies executing their scorched earth strategy after conquering foreign lands.
Now the infusion/injection of the 'world' could mean the multinational makeup of the Roman armies, of the known world.

 

[PinSeeker]

In order to lay hold on and cast into, doesn't this require that what is being laid hold of is dwelling where the one meant in A) is coming down to?

Well, aside from the fact that your understanding of these things is far, far too wooden… <smile> …no, not in the wooden way you’re… “thinking” …of it. <smile>

Why would satan be dwelling on the earth and when did he initially start doing so? Doesn't the following tell us exactly that?

Same as directly above, David. Revelation is a picture book, and by that, I mean that the realities of the things spoken of in Revelation (and other parts of the Bible) are far greater than in reading Revelation what is at face value. Have you ever read “Pilgrim’s Progress,” by John Bunyan? If so, that should give you some idea how to read Revelation.

Okay, yeah, that’s enough, really… <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[grafted branch]

Do you think anything had to be done in relation to Satan in order to allow for Gentiles to be saved on a larger scale instead of just a few Gentiles being saved here and there as was the case in Old Testament times?

Would you agree that the power of death had to be taken from him in order for that to happen?

Hebrews 2:14 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

What kind of death is Hebrews 2:14-15 talking about?

If the Gentiles during the Old Testament times didn’t even know about the Old Testament because Satan was deceiving them then they wouldn’t have even been aware of the second death, so the “fear of death” in Hebrews 2:15 would have to be physical death, right?

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. This verse is physical death, which would seem to force Hebrews 2:15 to mean the second death if that verse is accomplished at the cross, but if that’s the case then Hebrews 2:15 would only be applicable to those who were aware of the second death, which wouldn’t be deceived Gentiles.

 

[rwb]

Yes. It was explained, but I will state it even more plainly so there is no room for confusion.
The question itself is built on a false assumption. Scripture never says Satan must be bound in the Revelation 20 sense before Gentiles can be saved.

This is true, but what Scripture does say is that Satan deceived nations (Gentiles) before being bound. That meant that only few from among the nations (Gentiles) prior to his binding were being saved. Since the cross and resurrection that truth changed decisively. Because now, since the advent of Christ the nations (Gentile) are hearing the gospel of the Kingdom of God preached and innumerable multitudes of Gentiles (nations) have been and are being saved. That's a FACT that cannot be denied!

Revelation 20 does not say Satan is bound so that no Gentile can ever be saved before that event. It says he is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3. That is a global condition, not individual conversion.

Multitudes of Gentiles as well as Jews do indeed remain in blindness and unbelief. But the remnant of Jews of Old with innumerable multitudes (Gentiles) globally are also being saved. In FACT, whosoever is ordained to eternal life whether Jew or Gentile are NOW, since the advent of Christ turning to Him in repentance eternally saved. That was not happening before the cross and resurrection bound the power Satan had to hold the nations in fear of death. It's only after the cross and resurrection that this began to come to pass in great numbers as never before had been. That's how we know the victory of Christ's cross and resurrection bound Satan's power, keeping him from taking away the word sown in the hearts of all who have been ordained to eternal life from the foundation of the world.

Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

The Word of God was not preached to the nations (Gentiles) that they too might hear with their hearts, repent of their sins and turn to Christ for salvation. Because preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God was not sent unto every nation until AFTER the cross and resurrection of Christ.

Romans 10:8-9 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Acts 13:46-48 (KJV) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Christ builds His church now not because Satan is already bound from deceiving the nations, but because Christ has all authority. “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” ~Matthew 28:18. Authority to save does not require Satan to be restrained globally.

This is also true. But what you do not acknowledge is how the gospel of the Kingdom of God was NOT sent unto the nations (Gentiles) that they too might be saved, until AFTER the advent of the cross and resurrection. How could Gentiles believe before hearing the Word (gospel of the Kingdom of God) proclaimed? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Until Christ sent out His disciples unto all the nations of the world, the nations (Gentiles) being without the Word of life mostly remained in darkness and unbelief.

Romans 10:13-15 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

If Satan were already bound so that he deceives the nations no more, then Revelation 20:7–8 would make no sense when Satan is released and again deceives the nations. That would describe the same condition we already have, which empties the passage of meaning.

It makes perfect sense when you understand that Satan shall not be set free before the gospel of the Kingdom of God has been proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth that the Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete. When time given the church to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God, symbolically a thousand years, has expired than and only then will Satan be loosed once again. The purpose for him being set free is so he can gather together all who remain in darkness and unbelief during his little season (Gog & Magog), to be burned up by the fiery wrath of God that shall come down from heaven.

Revelation 20:3 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[rwb]

The Great Commission itself proves the point. Jesus commands the gospel to be preached to all nations precisely because the nations are deceived and must be confronted with truth ~Matthew 28:19. Paul describes this entire period as “this present evil world” ~Galatians 1:4, not a restored age where deception has ceased.

As long as Satan possessed power to take the Word away from those who hear and don't understand, how can Gentiles (nations) be saved? The gospel of the Kingdom of God was sent out by Christ to be not only proclaimed but also taught so that new disciples would be made from all nations. Before the cross and resurrection of Christ, the gospel of the Kingdom of God was not sent unto the nations (Gentiles). It was sent out to them only AFTER the cross and resurrection so the Church would be built as peoples from all the nations of the world would be eternally saved when hearing and believing according to grace through faith.

Matthew 10:5-6 (KJV) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 28:18-19 (KJV) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

IOW the gates of hell, that is the power Satan possessed, would not prevail against the power of the gospel of the Kingdom of God being preached through the power of Christ's Spirit, that whosoever from among every nation of the world would hear and believe in Christ shall be saved!

 

[rwb]

Scripture has been stated plainly and compared with Scripture. The condition described in Revelation 20 does not match the present world ~1 John 5:19. I will not repeat arguments or debate systems. This is my final reply.

Are you reading and assuming that when Satan is bound this world will be a world of peace and harmony? If yes, where in Scripture do you find that to be true?

 

[rwb]

What kind of death is Hebrews 2:14-15 talking about?

If the Gentiles during the Old Testament times didn’t even know about the Old Testament because Satan was deceiving them then they wouldn’t have even been aware of the second death, so the “fear of death” in Hebrews 2:15 would have to be physical death, right?

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. This verse is physical death, which would seem to force Hebrews 2:15 to mean the second death if that verse is accomplished at the cross, but if that’s the case then Hebrews 2:15 would only be applicable to those who were aware of the second death, which wouldn’t be deceived Gentiles.

What difference does it make? Physical death is ordained for every human! When man physically dies in unbelief, they have no hope of living again, which is why they fear death. But the man who physically dies in faith has no more fear of death, because they know physical death is not the end of life for them. Rather it is the beginning of eternal life in the Kingdom of God in heaven, as spiritual body, living souls.

 

[Davidpt]

So you do think that the bottomless pit is described as symbolic then?

IMO, the pit is literal. Meaning a literal place. But not literally bottomless. It is bottomless per the perspective that it's depth can not be known nor searched out.

Something else to keep in mind, John is using real world imagery and that it can't mean one thing in the real world then something entirely different in the Bible. For example, real world imagery such as 'sheep' is often used in the Bible but at times is not meaning literal sheep. Yet is being compared to literal sheep and not zebras instead, for example.

Picture the following happening in the real world. What would it equal? A person has a pit prepared for a lion that has been terrorizing the community. He has a key to the pit and a great chain in his hand. He then lays hold of the lion and binds it with this great chain, then casts it into the pit, shuts the pit up , then locks the pit.

Is this same lion able to continue terrorizing this community while in the pit all chained up and locked inside? Of course not since it would be absurd that it could.

Though, satan is a spirit being, what satan can't do is this. He can't be in more than one place at the same time. IOW, if he is depicted bound in the pit, he certainly can't be roaming outside of it at the same time. satan is not omni-present. Only God is. But Amil gives the impression that satan too is omni-present since Amil has satan in the pit while the Bible has satan freely roaming outside of it at the same time. I'm not saying Amil thinks satan is omni-present.
I'm saying their interpretation gives the impression that he is.

And so what if Amil doesn't take the pit in the literal sense? Still can't have satan depicted bound in a pit and roaming around freely at the same time, since that contradicts reality.

 

[grafted branch]

What difference does it make? Physical death is ordained for every human! When man physically dies in unbelief, they have no hope of living again, which is why they fear death. But the man who physically dies in faith has no more fear of death, because they know physical death is not the end of life for them. Rather it is the beginning of eternal life in the Kingdom of God in heaven, as spiritual body, living souls.

What difference does it make?
Amill folks shouldn’t be trying to make the verse seem like it’s referring to Gentiles being in fear of the second death prior to the cross. It isn’t referring to the binding of Satan, it’s referring to the difference between the old covenant and new covenant.

 

[rwb]

What difference does it make?
Amill folks shouldn’t be trying to make the verse seem like it’s referring to Gentiles being in fear of the second death prior to the cross. It isn’t referring to the binding of Satan, it’s referring to the difference between the old covenant and new covenant.

All of humanity lived under fear through the curse of death until they have been born again. None could be born again until Christ came and made atonement for sin and defeated death. The Covenant promises of God could only remain a promise and not fact before Christ literally came.

 

[Marty fox]

IMO, the pit is literal. Meaning a literal place. But not literally bottomless. It is bottomless per the perspective that it's depth can not be known nor searched out.

Something else to keep in mind, John is using real world imagery and that it can't mean one thing in the real world then something entirely different in the Bible. For example, real world imagery such as 'sheep' is often used in the Bible but at times is not meaning literal sheep. Yet is being compared to literal sheep and not zebras instead, for example.

Picture the following happening in the real world. What would it equal? A person has a pit prepared for a lion that has been terrorizing the community. He has a key to the pit and a great chain in his hand. He then lays hold of the lion and binds it with this great chain, then casts it into the pit, shuts the pit up , then locks the pit.

Is this same lion able to continue terrorizing this community while in the pit all chained up and locked inside? Of course not since it would be absurd that it could.

Though, satan is a spirit being, what satan can't do is this. He can't be in more than one place at the same time. IOW, if he is depicted bound in the pit, he certainly can't be roaming outside of it at the same time. satan is not omni-present. Only God is. But Amil gives the impression that satan too is omni-present since Amil has satan in the pit while the Bible has satan freely roaming outside of it at the same time. I'm not saying Amil thinks satan is omni-present.
I'm saying their interpretation gives the impression that he is.

And so what if Amil doesn't take the pit in the literal sense? Still can't have satan depicted bound in a pit and roaming around freely at the same time, since that contradicts reality.

I can't believe that after all these years you still don't get what our view of the binding and the pit is your scenario is meaningless in our binding view we have never had satan in two places at once

 

[grafted branch]

All of humanity lived under fear through the curse of death until they have been born again. None could be born again until Christ came and made atonement for sin and defeated death. The Covenant promises of God could only remain a promise and not fact before Christ literally came.

Sure, even atheists today fear physical death. Do you think Hebrews 2:14-15 has anything to do with Satan being loosed or bound?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What kind of death is Hebrews 2:14-15 talking about?

Physical death.

If the Gentiles during the Old Testament times didn’t even know about the Old Testament because Satan was deceiving them then they wouldn’t have even been aware of the second death, so the “fear of death” in Hebrews 2:15 would have to be physical death, right?

Yes, of course. But, the reason they feared physical death is because they thought that would be the end of their existence. They had no hope of eternal life back then before Jesus brought the hope of eternal life to the world through His death and resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. This verse is physical death, which would seem to force Hebrews 2:15 to mean the second death if that verse is accomplished at the cross, but if that’s the case then Hebrews 2:15 would only be applicable to those who were aware of the second death, which wouldn’t be deceived Gentiles.

You have a tendency to make things far more complicated than they are for some reason. Do you even understand why I brought up that passage (Hebrews 2:14-15)? It was being claimed that the binding of Satan was not necessary for Satan to be bound in order for the gospel of salvation to spread throughout the world. So, I wanted to find out if the person believed anything had to be done in relation to Satan in order for the gospel to spread to the world. If they agree that the power of death had to be taken away from Satan in order for the gospel to be spread and for people to be saved and set free from their bondage to the fear of death, then why do they not allow that his binding could be related to that rather than it having something to do with him being completely incapacitated.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What difference does it make?
Amill folks shouldn’t be trying to make the verse seem like it’s referring to Gentiles being in fear of the second death prior to the cross.

No one was doing that. You misunderstood why I brought up that passage.

It isn’t referring to the binding of Satan, it’s referring to the difference between the old covenant and new covenant.

It is referring to the binding of Satan because the binding of Satan relates to Satan no longer being able to keep the world in spiritual darkness the way he was able to do in Old Testament times and was no longer able to do in New Testament times. In Old Testament times very few Gentiles were saved. In New Testament times, we have a description in Revelation 7:9 of a great multitude that no one can count from all nations being saved. Your clearly have no understanding of the binding of Satan.

 

[grafted branch]

If they agree that the power of death had to be taken away from Satan in order for the gospel to be spread and for people to be saved and set free from their bondage to the fear of death, then why do they not allow that his binding could be related to that rather than it having something to do with him being completely incapacitated.

Well I can’t speak for anyone else but I would say the power of death taken away from Satan had to do with the new covenant itself and Christ’s death, not necessarily whether Satan was bound or not.

 

[grafted branch]

In Old Testament times very few Gentiles were saved. In New Testament times, we have a description in Revelation 7:9 of a great multitude that no one can count from all nations being saved. Your clearly have no understanding of the binding of Satan.

In the Old Testament times only a remnant of Jews were saved. Was that also due to Satan being loosed at that time? Or should we attribute that to the old covenant and its structure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

IMO, the pit is literal. Meaning a literal place. But not literally bottomless. It is bottomless per the perspective that it's depth can not be known nor searched out.

If the pit is literal, then, to be consistent, you should believe that Satan is a literal dragon since it says the angel "laid hold on the dragon", who we knew is Satan, and you should believe that the key of the pit and the great chain are literal as well. Is that what you believe?

Something else to keep in mind, John is using real world imagery and that it can't mean one thing in the real world then something entirely different in the Bible. For example, real world imagery such as 'sheep' is often used in the Bible but at times is not meaning literal sheep. Yet is being compared to literal sheep and not zebras instead, for example.

Picture the following happening in the real world. What would it equal? A person has a pit prepared for a lion that has been terrorizing the community. He has a key to the pit and a great chain in his hand. He then lays hold of the lion and binds it with this great chain, then casts it into the pit, shuts the pit up , then locks the pit.

Is this same lion able to continue terrorizing this community while in the pit all chained up and locked inside? Of course not since it would be absurd that it could.

Amils do not disagree with this. How many times do we have to tell you this? We agree that the text indicates that Satan is completely unable to deceive the nations during the thousand years. The symbolic imagery indicates as such. What Amils disagree with Premils like you about is not that, but rather what Satan deceiving the nations entails. You think it refers to his ability to deceive in general. Amils believe it refers to his ability to deceive the nations in the same way he was able to do in Old Testament times when he had the power of death. When Jesus took the power of death away from him that he was formerly able to use to keep people in bondage to the fear of death, that resulted in his binding and allowed the gospel of Christ to spread and bring the hope of eternal life to the world and set people free from their bondage where a vast majority formerly had feared death because they had no hope of eternal life after death.

Though, satan is a spirit being, what satan can't do is this. He can't be in more than one place at the same time. IOW, if he is depicted bound in the pit, he certainly can't be roaming outside of it at the same time.

If the pit was a literal pit that Satan could be literally confined in, then what you're saying would be true, but Amils do not see his binding that way. Do you understand that? So, this argument you're making doesn't apply to anyone. It's a strawman argument. It's a complete waste of time. No one claims that Satan can be in two places at once.

satan is not omni-present. Only God is. But Amil gives the impression that satan too is omni-present since Amil has satan in the pit while the Bible has satan freely roaming outside of it at the same time.

Nonsense! Why, after all these years, do you still misrepresent Amil? You should be embarrassed. Since Amil does not see Satan's binding as him being literally locked up in a literal pit/prison with a literal chain, what you're saying doe not apply to what Amils believe. How can you not understand that?

I'm not saying Amil thinks satan is omni-present.
I'm saying their interpretation gives the impression that he is.

No, it does not! What we actually believe does NOT give that impression at all. That would only be the case if we agreed with your understsanding of Satan's binding in the sense of it making him completely incapacitated, which we do not.

And so what if Amil doesn't take the pit in the literal sense? Still can't have satan depicted bound in a pit and roaming around freely at the same time, since that contradicts reality.

LOL! That was completely contradictory. Since we don't take the pit in a literal sense, that means it has nothing to do with keeping Satan from roaming around. Hello? You just can't even bring yourself to try to look at Satan's binding from the Amil perspective instead of from your own Premil perspective. So, you end up misrepresenting Amil because of that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well I can’t speak for anyone else but I would say the power of death taken away from Satan had to do with the new covenant itself and Christ’s death, not necessarily whether Satan was bound or not.

And I disagree with that, obviously. Not much more I can say that I haven't already said about this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the Old Testament times only a remnant of Jews were saved. Was that also due to Satan being loosed at that time?

Yes. Read Hebrews 2:14-15 again. Do you understand that the blood of Christ established the new covenant? That passage indicates that it was through Christ's death that the power of death was taken away from Satan, resulting in people who formerly were kept in bondage to the fear of death being set free because of the hope of eternal life that Christ's death and resurrection brought to the world. Why would you not relate the power of death being taken from Satan with his binding? To me, it's clearly related.

Or should we attribute that to the old covenant and its structure.

What does that mean?

 

[grafted branch]

Why would you not relate the power of death being taken from Satan with his binding? To me, it's clearly related.

So is the binding of Satan tied directly to the new covenant?

What does that mean?

It means that the Gentiles weren’t under the old covenant, it was for Jews, that’s how it was structured.

The old covenant was a bilateral covenant, the Jews had certain physical requirements and God had certain requirements. The new covenant is unilateral, Gods grace is what is required, we don’t have any physical requirements we must do under that covenant. That’s why there weren’t many Gentiles or Jews saved during the old covenant and why there is a great multitude from every nation under the new covenant.

This has nothing to do with whether Satan was bound or not.