Why the great chain?

[Spiritual Israelite]

So is the binding of Satan tied directly to the new covenant?

Yes, of course. You see that I relate Hebrews 2:14-15 to his binding and it says Christ's death is what took away the power of death from Satan. Christ's death is what established the new covenant. So, there is a relationship between Satan's binding and the establishment of the new covenant.

It means that the Gentiles weren’t under the old covenant, it was for Jews, that’s how it was structured.

The old covenant was a bilateral covenant, the Jews had certain physical requirements and God had certain requirements. The new covenant is unilateral, Gods grace is what is required, we don’t have any physical requirements we must do under that covenant. That’s why there weren’t many Gentiles or Jews saved during the old covenant and why there is a great multitude from every nation under the new covenant.

This has nothing to do with whether Satan was bound or not.

Instead of going back and forth on this and wasting our time, how about you tell me how you interpret Hebrews 2:14-15. During what time period did Satan hold the power of death and during what time period was it taken away from him? What was the difference between what Satan was able to do with the power of death compared to being without it?

What is your understanding of Satan's binding?

 

[grafted branch]

During what time period did Satan hold the power of death and during what time period was it taken away from him?

Satan had the power of death prior to the cross, once Christ died and paid for sin, Satan could no longer accuse the brethren, all based on the covenants.

What is your understanding of Satan's binding?

It has to do with Satan being bound from fulfilling what was prophesied that he could fulfill. This was delayed, if you will, for the millennium, then Satan fulfills it after the millennium.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Satan had the power of death prior to the cross, once Christ died and paid for sin, Satan could no longer accuse the brethren, all based on the covenants.

I agree and I believe that relates to his binding.

It has to do with Satan being bound from fulfilling what was prophesied that he could fulfill. This was delayed, if you will, for the millennium, then Satan fulfills it after the millennium.

This is a very vague answer. What is it that you think he was bound from fulfilling that was prophesied that he could fulfill and when do you think he was bound? And why was it delayed?

 

[grafted branch]

This is a very vague answer. What is it that you think he was bound from fulfilling that was prophesied that he could fulfill and when do you think he was bound? And why was it delayed?

Satan was bound (had no power or authority) when Jesus was given all power/authority in heaven and earth, Matthew 28:18.

As far as a prophecy that Satan was bound from fulfilling, I would say it was the prophecy of “the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary”. That prophecy could’ve been fulfilled anytime after the 490 years (seventy sevens) were completed on thy people and holy city without contradicting other scriptures. I hold a preterist view so I don’t think you’re going to agree with me on that. If you have Satan currently bound then pretty much any prophecy that is still not fulfilled about Satan but could be fulfilled at any moment could be attributed to him being bound. The man of sin being revealed comes to mind, an argument could be made that Satan can’t reveal himself while he is bound.

Why the delay? The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering towards to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[ewq1938]

Satan was bound (had no power or authority) when Jesus was given all power/authority in heaven and earth, Matthew 28:18.

satan was not bound after the cross. He actually received more power being called the ruler of the world by Christ. Scripture speaks of satan prowling around like a lion and is dangerous to people. This continues until he has the most power over the world during those last 42 months of trin where he slaughters Christians. Only the second coming causes him to be bound by a symbolic chain, but he isn't only chained but cast into a prison that has a lock and a seal and he cannot deceive the nations during that time nor can he leave that prison.

 

[grafted branch]

satan was not bound after the cross. He actually received more power being called the ruler of the world by Christ. Scripture speaks of satan prowling around like a lion and is dangerous to people. This continues until he has the most power over the world during those last 42 months of trin where he slaughters Christians. Only the second coming causes him to be bound by a symbolic chain, but he isn't only chained but cast into a prison that has a lock and a seal and he cannot deceive the nations during that time nor can he leave that prison.

I would say Satan was bound and at the same time he did walk around like a roaring lion in Babylon, which was his cage after being bound.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

When do you see Satan being caged in Babylon?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Satan was bound (had no power or authority) when Jesus was given all power/authority in heaven and earth, Matthew 28:18.

So, after all that discussion, it turns out that we basically agree on the timing of when he was initially bound.

As far as a prophecy that Satan was bound from fulfilling, I would say it was the prophecy of “the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary”. That prophecy could’ve been fulfilled anytime after the 490 years (seventy sevens) were completed on thy people and holy city without contradicting other scriptures.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Please clarify what you're saying if you can. If not, never mind.

I hold a preterist view so I don’t think you’re going to agree with me on that.

Of course I won't agree with preterism, but I can't give any feedback on what you said since I can't even understand what you said.

If you have Satan currently bound then pretty much any prophecy that is still not fulfilled about Satan but could be fulfilled at any moment could be attributed to him being bound. The man of sin being revealed comes to mind, an argument could be made that Satan can’t reveal himself while he is bound.

To determine whether Satan is still bound or not depends on what he was bound from doing, right? I assume you have seen my understanding of his binding before? I have shared it many times. I relate passages like 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 to Satan's little season, so I believe while he is bound wickedness is restrained and when he is loosed, wickedness is no longer restrained. I see how things have been in more recent years with wickedness seemingly increasing as time goes on, so I believe we very well may be in Satan's little season now. As far as the man of sin being revealed being evidence of that, there are many different interpretations of what that means. I don't personally see the man of sin in the temple of God as referring to an individual Antichrist sitting in a physical temple. I see the reference to the man of sin as being a general reference to sinful mankind and Paul could be referring particularly to those who are part of the mass falling away that he refers to in 2 Thess 2:3. Instead of being in the church and worshiping God and having their faith in Christ, they basically decide that they don't need God and are their own God.

Why the delay? The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering towards to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I guess you could say God delays the timing of Satan's loosing because of His desire for people to give people time to repent, but I would say God the Father already knows and has determined the timing of the things that are prophesied to occur, so I don't think He delays anything as if He can't make up His mind about when prophecies should be fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

satan was not bound after the cross. He actually received more power being called the ruler of the world by Christ.

This is an incredibly ignorant statement and shows why Premillennialism needs to be rejected as the false doctrine that it is.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

In Old Testament times, few people were saved and the word of God was not preached throughout the world. Satan had the power of death in OT times that he was able to use to keep the vast majority of people in the world bondage to the fear of death because they had no hope of eternal life. In NT times, that all changed. The Gentiles who formerly were "without Christ", had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" were "brought near by the blood of Christ" and brought together as one body with Jewish believers (Ephesians 2:11-22). Because of what Christ accomplished long ago, a great multitude that no one can count from all nations is saved (Revelation 7:9). That is a huge difference from OT times. And it was made possible by Jesus taking the power of death away from Satan. To say that Satan had more power after the cross is as ignorant of a statement that anyone could possibly make. No, he did not. He could not longer keep the world in spiritual darkness and keep everyone in bondage to the fear of death as he had done before after Christ's death on the cross. That is what scripture teaches. Premillennialists are very ignorant of what is taught in New Testament scriptures.

 

[Davidpt]

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Now explain what that passage would mean when he is no longer bound, thus is loosed. After all, bound and loosed are exact opposites.Therefore, undeniably proving binding satan has zero to do with this, otherwise the exact opposite of that passage would be true when he is no longer bound.

Revelation 20 defines satan’s binding and loosing as exact opposites. If his binding refers to the removal of the power of death, the spread of the gospel, and the salvation of the Gentiles (Hebrews 2; Ephesians 2), then his loosing must mean the reversal of those realities. Yet no one believes that when satan is loosed, Christ’s victory is undone, the Gentiles lose salvation, or the gospel collapses. Therefore, Hebrews 2 cannot be the referent of satan’s binding in Revelation 20. The binding must concern a specific restraint related to deception of the nations, not a general limitation of satan’s influence accomplished at the cross.


Hebrews 2 never mentions binding. Revelation 20 never mentions the power of death. The Amil position requires importing a meaning into Revelation 20 that the text itself never states. Therefore, does not = exegesis. Therefore = the false doctrine you are complaining about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now explain what that passage would mean when he is no longer bound, thus is loosed. After all, bound and loosed are exact opposites.

Yep, they are.

It's interesting that the only thing you quoted from my post is the passage I referenced (Hebrews 2:14-15). Do you have no thoughts on what I said in my post?

What do you think about what your fellow Premil ewq1938 said. He said "satan was not bound after the cross. He actually received more power being called the ruler of the world by Christ.". Do you agree with his second statement? Do you think Satan became more powerful after Christ died on the cross than he was before? Hebrews 2:14-15 clearly says otherwise, right?

Therefore, undeniably proving binding satan has zero to do with this, otherwise the exact opposite of that passage would be true when he is no longer bound.

What is it that you think has been undeniably proven? Something in your imagination? You have proven nothing.

In relation to that passage, Satan being loosed means that the power of death is given back to him for a short time (little season) when he is allowed to again prevent the world from hearing the gospel, leaving people in bondage to the fear of death, by way of drowning out the gospel with all sorts of deceptive false religions, philosophies and teachings that oppose the truth of God's word.

Look at this passage...

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This refers to a time when iniquity is no longer restrained and it is loosed. Paul relates that time to Satan. He said that the revealing of "that wicked" or "the man of sin" is related to "the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders". So, previous to that time Satan was not able to deceive "with all power and signs and lying wonders", but during the time after iniquity is no longer restrained, he is able to do that. I relate that to the binding and loosing of Satan. His binding is a restraint on his former level of deceptive power and not a case of him being completely incapacitated.

 

[grafted branch]

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Satan had the power of death in OT times that he was able to use to keep the vast majority of people in the world bondage to the fear of death because they had no hope of eternal life.

Will people who currently have no fear of death once again fear death like the OT times when Satan is loosed?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Will people who currently have no fear of death once again fear death like the OT times when Satan is loosed?

Some will. Those who currently don't fear death don't fear it because of having the hope of eternal life through Jesus Christ. Paul said there would be a mass falling away in the time just before Jesus returns (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and I relate that time to Satan's little season. Like OT times, the word of God will be mostly silenced during Satan's little season while iniquity is again unrestrained for a short time like it was during the Old Testament times of ignorance (Acts 17:30).

So, how do you interpret Hebrews 2:14-15?

 

[grafted branch]

Some will. Those who currently don't fear death don't fear it because of having the hope of eternal life through Jesus Christ. Paul said there would be a mass falling away in the time just before Jesus returns (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and I relate that time to Satan's little season. Like OT times, the word of God will be mostly silenced during Satan's little season while iniquity is again unrestrained for a short time like it was during the Old Testament times of ignorance (Acts 17:30).

So, how do you interpret Hebrews 2:14-15?

But that’s always been the case, those who don’t have hope of eternal life through Jesus Christ fear death, regardless of Satan being bound or not.

Hebrews 2:14-15 is talking about the difference between the covenants, not about Satan being bound or not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now explain what that passage would mean when he is no longer bound, thus is loosed. After all, bound and loosed are exact opposites.Therefore, undeniably proving binding satan has zero to do with this, otherwise the exact opposite of that passage would be true when he is no longer bound.

Revelation 20 defines satan’s binding and loosing as exact opposites. If his binding refers to the removal of the power of death, the spread of the gospel, and the salvation of the Gentiles (Hebrews 2; Ephesians 2), then his loosing must mean the reversal of those realities. Yet no one believes that when satan is loosed, Christ’s victory is undone, the Gentiles lose salvation, or the gospel collapses.

Why do you think you can speak for everyone? No one is saying Christ's victory is undone, but you say that Gentiles can't lose salvation? I know you believe that they can, so what are you talking about? Paul talked about a mass falling away occurring in the time just before Christ's return. As for the gospel, are you really as naive as you come across?

Read this...

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I relate this passage to the time when Satan is loosed. So, I relate it to the time when inquity/wickedness is loosed and no longer restrained. So, you think the gospel is preached the same as always in the world even after iniquity is no longer restrained with "the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" going on? How can that be the case?

Therefore, Hebrews 2 cannot be the referent of satan’s binding in Revelation 20.

Look at you. You make these weak arguments over and over again and then you act like you proved something. You are delusional.

The binding must concern a specific restraint related to deception of the nations, not a general limitation of satan’s influence accomplished at the cross.

It's not just a "general limitation". This is the problem with Premillennialism. It minimizes the affect that Christ's ministry, death and resurrection and the preaching of the gospel of Christ has had on Satan and his influence. In OT times, how many people in the world were saved? Not many, right? It was to the point where Paul said regarding the Gentiles that in those times they were "without Christ", had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). How about in New Testament times? More of the same? No! Read Revelation 7:9. It describes a great multitude of people that no one can count from all nations being saved. That wouldn't have been possible without the binding of Satan, without the power of death being taken away form him that he was previously able to use to keep the world in spiritual darkness and in bondage to the fear of death.

Hebrews 2 never mentions binding. Revelation 20 never mentions the power of death.

LOL. This is a ridiculous argument. This is like how pre-tribs say that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 can't be related to the same event as Matthew 24:29-31 because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 makes no mention of the angels doing the gathering to Christ. Is that a valid argument? No. And neither is the argument you're trying to make here.

The Amil position requires importing a meaning into Revelation 20 that the text itself never states.

That's like pretribs saying that the post-trib position imports a meaning into 1 Thess 4:14-17 (the angels do the gathering of the church to Christ in the air) that the text itself never states.

Therefore, does not = exegesis. Therefore = the false doctrine you are complaining about.

LOL. You have nothing but weak, invalid arguments to offer, as always. And, of course, there are many other passages that Amils use to support our doctrine besides just Hebrews 2:14-15. And you twist all of those pasage to fit your doctrine instead of accepting what they teach.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But that’s always been the case, those who don’t have hope of eternal life through Jesus Christ fear death, regardless of Satan being bound or not.

Hebrews 2:14-15 is talking about the difference between the covenants, not about Satan being bound or not.

What are you intending to say, that you think Christ's death had no affect on Satan despite Him taking the power of death away from Satan? Do you think the same percentage of people in the world have feared death in New Testament times compared to Old Testament times? Paul said about the Gentiles in Old Testament times that they were "without Christ", had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). Now, they were some exeptions, of course, but he was speaking generally there. Do you think in New Testament times it can be said that Gentiles have been "without Christ", with "no hope" while being "without God in the world"?

Despite being a preterist, you seem to think similarly to futurists at times. You seem to think that Christ's death had no impact on Satan and his activity level in the world.

 

[grafted branch]

What are you intending to say, that you think Christ's death had no affect on Satan despite Him taking the power of death away from Satan? Do you think the same percentage of people in the world have feared death in New Testament times compared to Old Testament times? Paul said about the Gentiles in Old Testament times that they were "without Christ", had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). Now, they were some exeptions, of course, but he was speaking generally there. Do you think in New Testament times it can be said that Gentiles have been "without Christ", with "no hope" while being "without God in the world"?

Despite being a preterist, you seem to think similarly to futurists at times. You seem to think that Christ's death had no impact on Satan and his activity level in the world.

The problem isn’t in initially thinking that all the things accomplished at the cross bound Satan, the problem is that Satan is loosed at some point and no longer bound.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant

The new covenant is everlasting, so anything that occurs because of the new covenant cannot be related to the binding of Satan. Satan’s binding is not eternal but the covenant is. You can’t mix and match the two, it doesn’t work.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The problem isn’t in initially thinking that all the things accomplished at the cross bound Satan, the problem is that Satan is loosed at some point and no longer bound.

What is the problem with that exactly?

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant

The new covenant is everlasting, so anything that occurs because of the new covenant cannot be related to the binding of Satan. Satan’s binding is not eternal but the covenant is. You can’t mix and match the two, it doesn’t work.

I don't know what you're talking about. I am not trying to relate his loosing to the new covenant ending. Where are you getting that from? Once again we are nowhere close to being on the same page when trying to discuss something, so it's not worth all the effort it takes to explain things to you.

 

[grafted branch]

What is the problem with that exactly?

The problem with that is that Satan’s binding isn’t eternal while the covenant is eternal. If something occurred because Satan was bound then that thing isn’t eternal. If something occurred because of the new covenant then that thing is eternal.

I am not trying to relate his loosing to the new covenant ending. Where are you getting that from?

I’m getting that from your claim that the fear of death was removed due to the binding of Satan. It wasn’t, the fear of death was removed due to the new covenant, which is everlasting.

 

[Earburner]

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

If this is literal and satan is locked and sealed in the abyss why would there even be a need for a great chain?

What is the purpose of the great chain?

What is the great chain?

2 Peter 2
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Please see post #45 in the following thread:

When Might Satan With His Angels Come to This Earth For the Tribulation?

Satan is still NOT BOUND in his pit prison yet today. And that prison is IN THE HEAVENLY dimension, by the way. The 70 A.D. theory happened because the Church back then saw God's destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman army, and thought that was a sign that Christ's Kingdom had...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The problem with that is that Satan’s binding isn’t eternal while the covenant is eternal. If something occurred because Satan was bound then that thing isn’t eternal. If something occurred because of the new covenant then that thing is eternal.

I never related his binding directly to the duration of the new covenant. You are making a strawman argument.

I’m getting that from your claim that the fear of death was removed due to the binding of Satan. It wasn’t, the fear of death was removed due to the new covenant, which is everlasting.

Hebrews 2:14 says that Christ removed the power of death from Satan. Do you deny that was necessary in order to free people from their bondage to the fear of death? You seem to be like Premils in trying to downplay the significance that Christ's ministry, death and resurrection had on Satan.