Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

You're speaking in negation. The verse exactly addresses claims of equality are false. The son is NOT God because he is not equal to God. It does mean what you deny.



Oy vey! So much is wrong about this sentence.

1st, you are inserting "belief" into a statement of fact. Jesus did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. Nothing about belief there.

2nd, you are again ignoring the NOT in the sentence. It's not about his belief but his inequality. God regards equality with himself something to be grasped.

3rd, the verse says nothing about using force. I've heard this tortured take before. Just extreme eisegesis.

4th, Scripture talks quite a bit about our inheritance, which is equal to Jesus' inheritance, where we are GIVEN things by God, not take from God. Jesus too is given things by God. You must know this.

Here is where language betrays your IDOL. Jesus was given things by YHWH, who is the only true God, who we relate to as father. Jesus is not YHWH. To avoid this obvious truth, you retreat to claiming the natures are the same - despite it being demonstrated different natures - as a back door path to being YHWH.

Actually @Brakelite is correct about the exegesis of the verse in question.
Unfortunately some biblical language is difficult for we Westerners and lay persons.
This is why it's good that there are thologians that can actually use hermeneutics to exegete.

Here is a translation of the verse that will be better understood by non-theologians:

Philippians 2:6
6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be [a]grasped,

Let's check with easier versions that use more modern-day language:

NIV
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;


even the

KJV
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Amplified Bible
who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it];


Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.


Holman Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.


GOD'S WORD® Translation
Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality.


Good News Translation
He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God.


IOW,,,when Jesus was on earth....He had the nature of God, but could not BY FORCE also have all attributes because of His limitation. Force does come into the equation. Jesus accpted His limitation.


International Standard Version
In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.


Literal Standard Version
who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not something to be seized to be equal to God,


There are mnay more...that should be sufficient.
Whenever a verse sounds off to me, I check it out in detail because, as I've often stated,
scripture MUST agree wtih scripture or we could throw the bible in the trash bin.

Scripture must be reconciled with itself.
This is done, and is possible, when the theology is correct.
No verse stands alone.

Jesus was created about 2,000 years ago. We celebrate it every December. Begotten means created. Look it up.

Oi vey

NOT BEGOTTEN AGAIN!

OI VEY.

Again, totally wrong and demonstrably so.

1. No one has seen God. Many have seen Jesus.

WHEN WAS JESUS SEEN?
Was GOD every seen?
Then WHO was seen in the OT??

1. God has no body. Jesus has a body.
2. God is eternal, meaning he did not die and cannot die. Jesus died.

How silly do we want to get?
Jesus came here to die.

Did He resurrect?
Perhaps the point of His death and resurrection is to PROVE that He IS GOD
and that His sacrifice was accepted and valid?

Good theology Wrangler.
It's everything.

These are not the same natures. These are different natures.

Jesus is the exact image of God.
Hebrews.

Something that has the exact nature IS THAT THING.

YOU have a human nature.
A son of yours will have your nature.

A ROCK has a rock nature.
ALL rocks will have a rock nature.

Because "the son of God" is a title, like Anointed, which applies to others in Scripture. It does not mean a biological relationship, where nature is shared. This is why Acts 17:31 emphasizes that God selected this man.

So you also don't believe

Luke 1:35
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; for that reason also the [a]holy Child will be called the Son of God.

Jesus is called THE SON OF GOD because His father is the Holy Spirit, who is also God.
Again...NATURE.

God has the God nature.
Jesus has the God nature because God is His father.

JESUS is NOT a son of God...
like you or I might be a son of God.

Your father is not God but your human father.
Try to understand the difference Wrangler --- it's important.

Good theology always explains itself.
Bad theology creates weird analogies,
as humans were Gods.

The main problem with your position is that it is not taught in Scripture, which is why you have to resort to eisegesis, 'support' your position through argument rather than simply quote a verse that teaches what you claim.

Plenty of arguments on this thread.
Plenty of arguments right above.
You just don't like them because you've created your very own religion,
which is actually what this thread is really about.

It says Christian under your avatar...
but you cannot define yourself as Christian.
Because you do not accept Christian theology,
which is able to explain all your odd ideas.

 

[GodsGrace]

President Trump and our sheriff. People want to forget the AND, even after they have read that Yeshua referred to Yahweh as His God.... The Great God is Yahweh and the savior Christ Jesus.

No.
It's like this:

Our Presdident and sheriff, Trump.

Trump is BOTH the President and the sheriff.

Plain and simple English and it's the same in the other languages I know.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Actually @Brakelite is correct about the exegesis of the verse in question.
Unfortunately some biblical language is difficult for we Westerners and lay persons.
This is why it's good that there are thologians that can actually use hermeneutics to exegete.

Here is a translation of the verse that will be better understood by non-theologians:

Philippians 2:6
6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be [a]grasped,

Let's check with easier versions that use more modern-day language:

NIV
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;


even the

KJV
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Amplified Bible
who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it];


Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.


Holman Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.


GOD'S WORD® Translation
Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality.


Good News Translation
He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God.


IOW,,,when Jesus was on earth....He had the nature of God, but could not BY FORCE also have all attributes because of His limitation. Force does come into the equation. Jesus accpted His limitation.


International Standard Version
In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.


Literal Standard Version
who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not something to be seized to be equal to God,


There are mnay more...that should be sufficient.
Whenever a verse sounds off to me, I check it out in detail because, as I've often stated,
scripture MUST agree wtih scripture or we could throw the bible in the trash bin.

Scripture must be reconciled with itself.
This is done, and is possible, when the theology is correct.
No verse stands alone.

Oi vey

NOT BEGOTTEN AGAIN!

OI VEY.


WHEN WAS JESUS SEEN?
Was GOD every seen?
Then WHO was seen in the OT??


How silly do we want to get?
Jesus came here to die.

Did He resurrect?
Perhaps the point of His death and resurrection is to PROVE that He IS GOD
and that His sacrifice was accepted and valid?

Good theology Wrangler.
It's everything.

Jesus is the exact image of God.
Hebrews.

Something that has the exact nature IS THAT THING.

YOU have a human nature.
A son of yours will have your nature.

A ROCK has a rock nature.
ALL rocks will have a rock nature.



So you also don't believe

Luke 1:35
35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; for that reason also the [a]holy Child will be called the Son of God.

Jesus is called THE SON OF GOD because His father is the Holy Spirit, who is also God.
Again...NATURE.

God has the God nature.
Jesus has the God nature because God is His father.

JESUS is NOT a son of God...
like you or I might be a son of God.

Your father is not God but your human father.
Try to understand the difference Wrangler --- it's important.

Good theology always explains itself.
Bad theology creates weird analogies,
as humans were Gods.

Plenty of arguments on this thread.
Plenty of arguments right above.
You just don't like them because you've created your very own religion,
which is actually what this thread is really about.

It says Christian under your avatar...
but you cannot define yourself as Christian.
Because you do not accept Christian theology,
which is able to explain all your odd ideas.

Your approach (starting with a belief and then hunting for a translation that supports it) is exactly what many people do, and it can quietly turn Bible study into confirmation bias. Serious study usually works best the other way around.

 

[GodsGrace]

But the scriptures do not say that......And Jesus said, And while I am on earth the Father is greater than I. But when I get to Heaven I will kick Him off His throne and I will be God Almighty. Make it up as you go....at least it will show imagination.

Not funny GH.

While Jesus was ON EARTH
HIS FATHER was GREATER than He was.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Wrangler, notice how few here will actually open their Bibles to study the Isaiah Servant prophecies and connect them to Paul’s exhortations. You can quickly tell who is serious about searching the Word for understanding, rather than just defending what is hopeless.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where are you getting these from or is a twisted interpretation?
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Philippians 2:6

Why is it twisted?
There are a few different ways of saying something.

Let's check out Hebrews:


Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 [a]in these last days has spoken to us [b]in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the [c]world.
3 [d]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature,


1.
As I was attempting to explain to @Wrangler ,
Jesus is THE SON thorugh Whom God has spoken to us.

You and Wrangler and I might be sons of God...
but God has not spoken to the world through us.
We are NOT oracles of God.

Jesus is THE WORD,,, THE ORACLE (not an oracle) OF GOD.

2.
Who upholds everything but God Himself?
Jesus represents God's nature.
Only God can represent God's nature.
Not a man that is created by that God.

 

[Lambano]

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be seized. (Philippians2:6)

Why is it twisted?

Pamela Eisenbaum, a Jewish theologian, characterizes the original monotheism of Judaism as "aniconic". Any suggestion that God has a form is a violation of the commandment against making graven images of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is an anti-Biblical claim - unless you concede all men also have these 2 natures.

Learn the Trintiy Warngler.
Or stop calling yourself a Christian.

Christians understand the Trinity.
You don't seem to.

Jesus is ONE PERSON.
He has TWO NATURES.

A HUMAN NAATURE.
A DIVINE NATURE.

Do I need to post again how the Apostles portrayed Jesus as
being BOTH A MAN AND DIVINE?

Maybe you should do this yourself.
You don't have to trust anyone.
Learn it on your own.

We have GEMINI now, besides the very easy to use internet.
Try it, you'll like it.

I'll do it for you...it'll take ONE MINUTE:



Yes, according to traditional Christian theology, Jesus Christ has two distinct natures—fully divine and fully human—united in one person, a doctrine known as the hypostatic union. Established at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD, this belief holds that these two natures are not mixed, confused, divided, or separated, allowing Jesus to be both God and man simultaneously.
Key Details About the Two Natures

• Fully Divine Nature: As the eternal Son of God, Jesus possesses a complete divine nature, meaning he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.
• Fully Human Nature: Through the Incarnation, Jesus took on a complete human nature (body, soul, and mind), becoming like humans in every way except for sin.
• One Person: The two natures exist in one person (the Logos), not two separate beings.
• Functional Distinction: His human nature allowed him to grow in wisdom, experience temptation, and suffer, while his divine nature remained.

Theological Perspectives

• Chalcedonian View (Western Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy): Affirms that Jesus has two full natures (divine and human) that are unconfused and inseparable.
• Miaphysitism (Oriental Orthodox Churches): While sometimes misunderstood as holding only one nature, these churches technically teach that the divinity and humanity are united in one single nature (or composite nature) without separation or confusion.

In summary, Christianity historically holds that Jesus is "true God and true man" in one person.

 

[Marvelloustime]

through the love of the world , which many now beleive to be the LOVE of GOD ,
they now follow this one ..........View attachment 78941 believing it to be GOD and LOVE . very delusional are these days .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

This generation has become so enamoured with pleasing man
and appeasing man
but have no idea they are leading all into the greatest rebellion against GOD , HIS Christ .
If i sought to please man i would NOT be the servant of Christ . PAUL KNEW exactly that .
Seeker friendly pandered to man and thus to the flesh of man . AND boy did the numbers who came in
grow massive . But why . Because they please man , NOT GOD .
And as JESUS Once said that which is pleasing to man IS abomination to GOD .
WELL take a look today and see what is going on in t hose churches . Abominations .
For one cannot have BOTH the love of GOD and of the world . no they will cling to the one and hate the other e.
AND that be exactly what the love of the world do , it clings to the lusts of the f lesh
pride of life and etc , HATING the very TRUTH that do expose it .
A man cannot love SIN and GOD . that is a fact , they will cling to the sin and HATE the GOD who exposes it by HIS TRUTH .
What we are witnessing can easily be summed up .
SATAN duped this people into loving him and through that love they hate GOD only more and more every day and hour
that passes as they embrace the god who has promised them salvation and THEIR SIN .
only WE GOT A BIG problem with that . CAUSE GOD DONT HONOR SIN , NOR UNBELEIF . but their god does both .
Thus n odoubt its the devil . NO doubt in my mind that is who many now see as the god of love
and they see the biblical GOD as satan . that is a fact friend . a sad on e , BUT A F ACT none the less .

@amigo de christo

 

[GodsGrace]

This generation has become so enamoured with pleasing man
and appeasing man
but have no idea they are leading all into the greatest rebellion against GOD , HIS Christ .
If i sought to please man i would NOT be the servant of Christ . PAUL KNEW exactly that .
Seeker friendly pandered to man and thus to the flesh of man . AND boy did the numbers who came in
grow massive . But why . Because they please man , NOT GOD .
And as JESUS Once said that which is pleasing to man IS abomination to GOD .
WELL take a look today and see what is going on in t hose churches . Abominations .
For one cannot have BOTH the love of GOD and of the world . no they will cling to the one and hate the other e.
AND that be exactly what the love of the world do , it clings to the lusts of the f lesh
pride of life and etc , HATING the very TRUTH that do expose it .
A man cannot love SIN and GOD . that is a fact , they will cling to the sin and HATE the GOD who exposes it by HIS TRUTH .
What we are witnessing can easily be summed up .
SATAN duped this people into loving him and through that love they hate GOD only more and more every day and hour
that passes as they embrace the god who has promised them salvation and THEIR SIN .
only WE GOT A BIG problem with that . CAUSE GOD DONT HONOR SIN , NOR UNBELEIF . but their god does both .
Thus n odoubt its the devil . NO doubt in my mind that is who many now see as the god of love
and they see the biblical GOD as satan . that is a fact friend . a sad on e , BUT A F ACT none the less .

Right.
Jesus said a person cannot love both God and mammon.
You love one or you love the other...
but to love both is impossible since we're taught to be transformed
and not be conformed to the world.

Romans 12:1-2
12 Therefore I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, [a]acceptable to God, which is your [b]spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this [c]world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may [d]prove what the will of God is, that which is good and [e]acceptable and perfect.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Solomon clearly states that heaven is God's dwelling place:
2 Chronicles 6:19–21 (KJV): 19 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee: 20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place. 21 Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive.

God is one person:
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV): Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

The One God, Yahweh, God the Father is also present everywhere by means of His Spirit:
Psalm 139:1–7 (KJV): 1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
This does not prove that Yahweh is a multitude of Gods.

Acts 2:22 (KJV): Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Only one Yahweh. The Angel of Yahweh represents God and acts and speaks on His behalf.
Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
Zechariah 3:1–2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


The Angels throughout the Bible speak and act on God's behalf, and they have been delegated power from God and also have God's wisdom. The Angels were also active in the Garden.

Proverbs 8 introduces similar language and concepts to John 1:1,14.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor,
no use going through this again.

Of course God is everywhere.

But He did come down to earth in the PERSON of the Son.


1 Timothy 3:16
16 Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness:

He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was [a]vindicated [b]in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.


The word was GOD
and the word BECAME FLESH.


John 1:1, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John wrote to show that Jesus is God.
The above two verses explain everything.

 

[Grailhunter]

GH
You just repeated that while Jesus was on earth, the Father was in heaven!
I mean, where else would He be?

So you agree with me.

Jesus as the 2nd Person of the Trinity was on earth.
Father was in heaven.
The Son has always been in heaven as Person number 2.

See. It works out just as Jesus said.

And the scripture is talking about two separate persons.....Gods....

 

[Grailhunter]

You are right. The scriptures do not say that. Neither did Jesus. And neither is anyone else. Where did you get the idea from?

LOL Humor......People act like the scriptures say that.

 

[Grailhunter]

Maybe I misunderstood.
If so I apologize.

However, yes, the CC IS the original church.
Unless you could name another denomination that was around at the time.

In a letter to Smyrnea, Ignatius of Antioch (my favorite ECF) first used the term CATHOLIC.
It meant UNIVERSAL...however the title did stick...and it is THIS church that was present then and now.

Ignatius did this because heresy was already in the church and he wanted to distinguish the TRUE CHURCH from heresy.

John wrote about this in a much ussed verse but used incorrectly.
1 john 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [a]it would be evident that they all are not of us.

Those that uphold OSAS always use this verse for support.
Unfortunately, it does not mean what they think it means.

John was referring to heretics that had infiltrated the church.

Which lies have I been taught GH?
And by whom?
You're the one who went to a theological university and studied under MEN.

I read my bible and make sure that when I'm told/taught something it matches EXACTLY with scripture.
Scripture teaches me that there is ONLY ONE GOD.

And this is both in the OT and the NT.


You should learn if you're going to speak.
Roman is not a denomination.
Roman is a rite.

It's not even correct to call it the RCC...
There's no such animal.

And you're wrong about Pope and Bishop too.

1 timothy 3:1-2
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,


Titus 1:7
7 For the [a]overseer must be beyond reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not overindulging in wine, not [b]a bully, not greedy for money,


That's two verses. There are more.
And the good ole' KJV uses the word BISHOP, which, in Greek is EPISKOPOS and the correct word is BISHOP, but it just sounds too Catholic for we Protestants, I guess, so the word has been changed to ELDER. The meaning is the same.
A bishop IS AN ELDER. Not to be confused with elders in the JW religion or elders in a neighborhood church.


Titus 1:7
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

This is true for every verse that uses the word OVERSEER or ELDER in our more modern bibles.

And there were MANY councils...why are you obsessed with the Council of Nicea??
Were bishops not present? Was the church not making decisions there?

And you should find out about the history of POPE.
There were 5 Popes while PETER WAS STILL ALIVE.

Look it up.
We have the internet now.



Yes sir.
I just got through explaining the word Bishop.

And it's the CC that created the CANON FOR SCRIPTURE.
It is the CC that established WHAT LETTERS and GOSPELS were to be included in the NT.

Did they not include writings by Paul AND Peter?
HOW did the CC rewrite history when you're not even representing correct history??


This is rather a silly statement GH.
Sorry for having to say this.

It's like saying that the word COMPUTER did not exist before the COMPUTER existed.

EPISKOPOS means BISHOP.
Of course the actual word BISHOP did not exist....
because Christianity had to be ESTABLISHED.
But EPISKOPOS means BISHOP...it means a religious LEADER,,,an OVERSEER.
This is what a BISHOP does !

Constantine doesn't appear in scripture either...
but you keep bringing him up.
Double standard?

Yes. Hatred of the CC runs rampant.

The very church that has allowed Christianity to be established and without which there would be NO CHRISTIANITY.

Your hatred colors everything you say and so it is impossible to be objective.

Most definitely the Catholic Church is not the original Church. You have been taught what to believe and that includes history. The early church did not identify by denominations.....The new religion was first called the Way and then Christian.

Bob said he owned a jacuzzi, but when Jill visited she found out it was a Sears hot tub. Some people refer to all hot tubs as Jacuzzi. ECF's considered Christianity as the universal Church and then after the 4th century the organization formed by the Ecumenical Councils adopted the name Catholic, which means universal.


And there were MANY councils...why are you obsessed with the Council of Nicea??
Were bishops not present? Was the church not making decisions there?

The term Bishop or Pope did not exist in the 4th century.....Not obsessed with the Council of Nicaea, I know there were many councils.

Most studied under men like the Apostles and Paul and the leader of the 7 churches. And I imagine you have been taught a lot of lies. I went to Catholics schools and mass 6 times a week and my first college was Catholic....CBC Christian Brothers College. From there my degrees were theological and they were non- denomination as it should be or theologians would turn out like you with a false history. Then courses and seminars like Hebrew University in Jerusalem....(Online course) When I was in the Navy I would take vacations and attend courses and seminars at historic universities in Europe like Oxford and Cambridge and Notre Dame in Paris. My sub was based out of Holy Lock Scotland and was able to go to Roselynn Chapel and few other Scottish churches.

Roman Catholic Church is not an official designation it is an historical/theological descriptor. The religion was Christian....referred to as called Catholic....the muscle was Roman. Separation of church and state was not the rule there. Emperor Constantine was the head of the Catholic Church. The Church would determine heresies and the Roman Emperor would carry out persecutions and executions and even wars like the against the Cathers and Moslems.

The Catholics have a frequent tendency to make up history. It is funny to listen to them.

I have no hatred for the Catholics and I was raised Catholic and on occasion go to Catholic Mass particularly the Stations of the Cross at cathedrals and Church functions and dinners and Bazaars. Autumn Bazaar.... Benediction by Priest and a big dinner and yard sale of sorts and party games and gambling and outside a Budweiser truck with beer taps on the side and we would drink and smoke and fun around. I do not generally smoke but I would have cigar with them.....great time had by all.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not funny GH.

While Jesus was ON EARTH
HIS FATHER was GREATER than He was.

Whether you believe that 3 Gods make up the Trinity or the 3 in 1 formula for the Trinity it is not a matter of salvation or if you are a Christian, but the 3 in 1 belief skews the meaning of a lot of scriptures in a relative manner because their minds have to juggle the meaning of a lot of scriptures and the truth escapes them. In other words their minds say to themselves....
No it does not mean what it says.....It means something that is congruent with doctrine.

For example for the 3 in 1 people…..What are their minds thinking or juggling when the scripture says….God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son….?

On the oneness concept Yeshua explains in detail what the oneness concept means. A pretty large group of scriptures. And the funny thing is.....He is talking to Yahweh when He is explaining it .....One God talking to another God....LOL

In their minds was Yeshua and Yahweh and the Holy Spirit walking with the Apostles?

What are their minds thinking or juggling when the scripture says…. That Yeshua said that Yahweh was His God?

What are their minds thinking when Yeshua prays to His God?

What are their minds thinking when…..Yeshua refers to Yahweh as His Father or Father in Heaven?.....over 50 times!

What are their minds thinking when Yeshua said, The Father is greater than I?

What do their minds think or juggling when Yeshua said….I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

What are their minds thinking when Yeshua say He does not do His will but the will of the Father?

What are their minds thinking when Yeshua said…. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

What are their minds thinking when Yahweh said…. This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.

And pleased? What about the love they have for each other....Do they love themselves?

What are their minds think when the scriptures said…. Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

What are their minds thinking it meant when John said…And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

What are their minds thinking it meant when Yeshua said….And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

What are their minds thinking it meant when Yeshua said….Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

What do their minds think it meant when Paul said….For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

What do their minds think it meant when Paul said….For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What do their minds think it meant when Paul said….But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God?

What do their minds think it meant when Paul said….Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Four verses reference Yeshua sitting on the right hand of Yahweh....God the Father....How do their minds juggle that to the 3 in 1 doctrine?

What do their minds think it meant when Paul said….For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

What do their minds think it meant when Paul said….Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—

What are their minds thinking when Yeshua said He could not grant John’s mother’s request for her sons to sit on either side of Him in Heaven, because it was not His to give?

What are their minds thinking when Yeshua said He did not know when the end of time would occur, but Yahweh did?

What are their minds thinking the meaning of the veil torn in two in the temple when Yeshua passed on the cross?

In their minds did the Romans nail Yeshua and Yahweh and the Holy Spirit to the cross?

Who do they think is speaking through people when they speak in tongues?

What do their minds think it meant when Yeshua said…. I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.

In each case their minds have to change the true meaning for an alternate meaning and so they cannot know the truth of the scriptures.

 

[Grailhunter]

Why is it twisted?
There are a few different ways of saying something.

Let's check out Hebrews:


Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 [a]in these last days has spoken to us [b]in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the [c]world.
3 [d]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature,


1.
As I was attempting to explain to @Wrangler ,
Jesus is THE SON thorugh Whom God has spoken to us.

You and Wrangler and I might be sons of God...
but God has not spoken to the world through us.
We are NOT oracles of God.

Jesus is THE WORD,,, THE ORACLE (not an oracle) OF GOD.

2.
Who upholds everything but God Himself?
Jesus represents God's nature.
Only God can represent God's nature.
Not a man that is created by that God.

Yeshua was the Son of Yahweh and a God and a Savior. Great stuff.

 

[HealthyShape]

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Mt 28:19

Yes, the belief in Trinity defines Christians. Because that is how Christians are baptized.

 

[Wrangler]

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Mt 28:19

Yes, the belief in Trinity defines Christians. Because that is how Christians are baptized.

The evidence that this is a forgery is seen in the fact that the Apostles never did this but only baptized people in the name of Jesus.

Also, this verse doesn't mention God or him supposedly being a 3-person person, let along the other 2 are God.

 

[HealthyShape]

The evidence that this is a forgery is seen in the fact that the Apostles never did this but only baptized people in the name of Jesus.

Also, this verse doesn't mention God or him supposedly being a 3-person person, let along the other 2 are God.

It is also in Didache:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.


But I think you already lost the debate, if you need to remove verses from the Bible to make your view work. Are you even baptized?