Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[Grailhunter]

And these 3 are one.

There are not 3 different Gods - there is only ONE God.

Find the scripture that there are 3 Gods in 1.

 

[Justified]

Perhaps you should take some time off to learn what God's Word teaches so you'll know who "Son of man" is.

Please learn to follow a discussion. I'm asking someone what they mean by referring to "Son of Man," so that I can understand where they are coming from. I am not asking because I don't know who the Son of Man is.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What Justified has shown is that they prefer the bias of credal knowledge over the inspired foundation of the OT text. In their own words, it is apparently unnecessary to study Isaiah, yet they are happy to examine unrelated texts and impose their preconceived notions on them.

@Wrangler, I’ve observed and experienced this countless times over the years with Christians, and they all respond in exactly the same way. Truly, there is nothing new under the sun!

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus Christ is YHWH.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


The Son is called God.

The Son is called LORD; YHWH

Since you cannot find the words Yahweh or YHWH in the Bibles anymore, you can not find those scriptures.
And Hebrews 1:8-10 does not define Yeshua as God.....Lord maybe.

 

[Justified]

For those who desire to know Paul's reasoning upon Isaiah's Servant Songs here are the connections:

Isaiah	Philippians 2	Connection
Isaiah 45:21–25	Philippians 2:9–11	God exalts the Servant; every knee shall bow; glory given.
Isaiah 50:5	Philippians 2:8	Servant’s obedience and submission; “learned obedience through suffering.”
Isaiah 52:13	Philippians 2:9	Exaltation after suffering; lifted up by God then raised and "granted life"
Isaiah 53:10; 60:21; 61:3	Philippians 2:11	Suffering for atonement; ultimate recognition and glorification.
Isaiah 42:6; 49:6	Philippians 2:15	Servant as light to the nations; shining example; pure, blameless life.
Isaiah 49:4	Philippians 2:16	Servant perseveres in mission despite challenges; holding fast to the Word of life.

Nowhere in this foundational text is the idea that God emptied Himself of his nature or essence.

Of course it isn't, and no one is making that claim. In the meantime, you're continuing to ignore what Paul actually states. I'm not surprised, most anti-Trinitarians can't provide an adequate answer; most ignore it, as you are largely doing.

What is taught is how He formed the character of a Son to die as the Son of Man and be raised and exalted as the Son of God with power. This power, or divine nature was given to him by God, his Father and Creator when he was raised from the dead.

What is taught is that the Son, who was God in nature, emptied himself by becoming human. In doing so, he submitted to the Father's will to die for our sins.

 

[Justified]

And Hebrews 1:8-10 does not define Yeshua as God.....Lord maybe.

It clearly, clearly states that the Father is saying the Son was Yahweh, the creator, using a passage from Ps. 102.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What is taught is that the Son, who was God in nature, emptied himself by becoming human. In doing so, he submitted to the Father's will to die for our sins.

This is what you want it to teach - you have been shown!

 

[Justified]

What Justified has shown is that they prefer the bias of credal knowledge over the inspired foundation of the OT text. In their own words, it is apparently unnecessary to study Isaiah, yet they are happy to examine unrelated texts and impose their preconceived notions on them.

@Wrangler, I’ve observed and experienced this countless times over the years with Christians, and they all respond in exactly the same way. Truly, there is nothing new under the sun!

Is there a reason why you don't want to address Phil. 2:6-8 properly? Simply repeating your (inadequate) understanding of it doesn't make it true. Paul uses specific language which is highly problematic for your position.

Yes, Paul makes some allusion to at least one OT passage, but that does not completely change the meaning of what he said. You're putting the cart before the horse and so end up coming to a wrong understanding of the passage.

This is what you want it to teach - you have been shown!

No, you actually have shown nothing of the sort. You haven't dealt with the language that Paul uses, the specific Greek words and how they relate in the passage.

Please answer the questions I previously asked you, as they are necessary for continuing the conversation.

 

[Hiddenthings]

If you had the context of God's nature in view but the context is abundantly clear.

From Son to Servant!

 

[Hiddenthings]

 

[Justified]

If you had the context of God's nature in view but the context is abundantly clear.

From Son to Servant!

View attachment 79019

View attachment 79020

What are you trying to show? Things like this are not at all helpful.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What are you trying to show? Things like this are not at all helpful.

If you studied and read carefully you would know.

 

[Justified]

If you studied and read carefully you would know.

Nope, not helpful. Speak plainly, please. It is much more conducive to a discussion.

And, no, "in the form" absolutely does not imply "a former." Again, look up the specific Greek word Paul uses and what it means. I've pointed this out before and you continue to just repeat your assertions without having done proper study.

There is just far too much in that short passage that it seems you haven't even considered. It is very dense.

 

[Grailhunter]

It clearly, clearly states that the Father is saying the Son was Yahweh, the creator, using a passage from Ps. 102.

Hebrews 1:8-10
But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.” And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;

Very confusing scripture but what it does not say that Yeshua is Yahweh. In face it says Therefore God, Your God. Back to Yahweh being Yeshua's God. But it is one of those scriptures in the New Testament that seems to imply that Yeshua was the Creator God. Ane....has anointed You with the Oil of gladness above Your companions..... shows 2 Gods but I do not know who His companions were.

The problem with this is that it re-writes the Old Testament. In the original Old Testament texts Yahweh by name is said to create everything. And He said repeatedly that He was the only God and there was no one like Him.

On this I side with Yahweh.

 

[Wrangler]

What Justified has shown is that they prefer the bias of credal knowledge over the inspired foundation of the OT text. In their own words, it is apparently unnecessary to study Isaiah, yet they are happy to examine unrelated texts and impose their preconceived notions on them.

@Wrangler, I’ve observed and experienced this countless times over the years with Christians, and they all respond in exactly the same way. Truly, there is nothing new under the sun!

so true. Seems futile. <sigh>

 

[Brakelite]

You're speaking in negation. The verse exactly addresses claims of equality are false. The son is NOT God because he is not equal to God. It does mean what you deny.



Oy vey! So much is wrong about this sentence.

1st, you are inserting "belief" into a statement of fact. Jesus did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. Nothing about belief there.

2nd, you are again ignoring the NOT in the sentence. It's not about his belief but his inequality. God regards equality with himself something to be grasped.

3rd, the verse says nothing about using force. I've heard this tortured take before. Just extreme eisegesis.

4th, Scripture talks quite a bit about our inheritance, which is equal to Jesus' inheritance, where we are GIVEN things by God, not take from God. Jesus too is given things by God. You must know this.

Here is where language betrays your IDOL. Jesus was given things by YHWH, who is the only true God, who we relate to as father. Jesus is not YHWH. To avoid this obvious truth, you retreat to claiming the natures are the same - despite it being demonstrated different natures - as a back door path to being YHWH.



Jesus was created about 2,000 years ago. We celebrate it every December. Begotten means created. Look it up.



Again, totally wrong and demonstrably so.

1. No one has seen God. Many have seen Jesus.
2. God has no body. Jesus has a body.
3. God is eternal, meaning he did not die and cannot die. Jesus died.

These are not the same natures. These are different natures.


Because "the son of God" is a title, like Anointed, which applies to others in Scripture. It does not mean a biological relationship, where nature is shared. This is why Acts 17:31 emphasizes that God selected this man.

The main problem with your position is that it is not taught in Scripture, which is why you have to resort to eisegesis, 'support' your position through argument rather than simply quote a verse that teaches what you claim.

You've been shown many times the scriptures that support Christ's divinity. You ignore them.

You're speaking in negation. The verse exactly addresses claims of equality are false. The son is NOT God because he is not equal to God. It does mean what you deny.

I know the Son is not equal to God in all things. No son is equal to his father. Rank, authority, submission, all play a role. But willing submission to His Father on the part of Jesus doesn't change Who He is. He's His Father's Son. He is of the same nature as His Father. A separate person, yes, and yet both forming one God. We don't know how that union is. Questioning it, finding an answer to it , attempting to explain it is futile. And dangerous. Just accept the scriptures as they are written and presented, and leave it at that. The Father created all things through His Son. And begotten has never meant created.

 

[Brakelite]

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be seized. (Philippians2:6)


Pamela Eisenbaum, a Jewish theologian, characterizes the original monotheism of Judaism as "aniconic". Any suggestion that God has a form is a violation of the commandment against making graven images of God.

Two things...
“26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

The life the Father gave His Son is His own life. Divine, eternal, self sufficient.


37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. ”
John 5:26, 37 KJV

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The Father has a shape. Thus a body. We are created in their image... the Father and His Son. Moses saw His back parts. Isaiah saw Him vaguely through a cloud of smoke. Joshua met the Son.

The apostle Paul describes Christ as “the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1:24, see also 2:1-8). Solomon says wisdom was “brought forth” (Proverbs 8:24:25). Only God can be “brought forth” of God. Anything that is not “brought forth” of God is created (a part of creation). Christ was not created. He is begotten. This is why He is a Son (Hebrews 1:2). This is also why the Father is God and the Son is God yet they each have a personal identity of their own.
Christ is the express image of God’s person (Hebrews 1:3). This is because He is God from God. He is God’s person (personality) made visible. In Christ we behold God in the person of the Son. Here though is where we need to remember the words of Jesus contained in that beautiful prayer to His Father.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” John 17:3 Christ refers to His Father as “the only true God”. He did not say though that He, as God’s Son, was not God, neither did He say that only His Father is God or only His Father should be called God. He is simply referring to His Father as the great source of all. Christ is also saying of Himself that He, as a Son, is a distinct individual from His Father. It was the same when the young man came to Jesus saying to Him “Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” (Mark 10:17). Jesus replied “…Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” Mark 10:18 Jesus was not denying His own divinity. It was just as though He was saying to this man “If you accept that I am good – and it is true that only God is good - then are you acknowledging me as whom I say I am – the Son of God? The Scriptures also tell us “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:5-6 If Christ had been less than God or someone other than God, then He could not have considered Himself as equal with God. This equality is the result of His Sonship with God. Here again we see two divine personalities. One personality is “God” while the other is “Christ Jesus”. Here we are also told that Christ, in His pre-existence, was in the “form of God”. As well as in character, this would be in outward appearance. This is why God could say to Him, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). The Greek word translated “form” is morphe. The only other place it is used in the Bible is where Mark wrote that Jesus, on the road to Emmaus, “appeared in another form [morphe]” to two of His followers (Mark 16:12, see also Luke 24:16). William Tyndale translated this verse in Philippians as “Which beynge in the shape of god and thought it not robbery to be equall with god.” Philippians 2:6 Tyndale’s translation 1525 God must have a “shape”. If He didn’t have a shape then there would have been no point in Jesus saying

“And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37

Jesus identified Himself with the one true God. This is when He said to the Jews “… Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58

The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. They knew He had identified Himself with the One who had spoken to Moses from the burning bush.
“And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” Exodus 3:14-15
Christ was indeed the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was the God of the Jews. He was their spiritual rock that was with them in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:1-4). He is Jehovah (Isaiah 12:2). Now though, in human flesh, He was standing before His people as their God. Unfortunately they failed to recognise Him as such. They would only have applied this appellation (the I AM) to God – and they certainly did not regard Jesus as such. This is why the Scriptures record that they took up stones to throw at Him (see John 8:59). It is also why John wrote in the prologue to His Gospel
“He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” John 1:11

 

[Beebster]

Analogies do NOT function well when speaking about GOD.

Good grief. The scriptures are full analogies.

 

[Brakelite]

Because "the son of God" is a title,

“2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. ”
1 John 1:2-3 KJV

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“22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. ”
1 John 2:22-24 KJV

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“1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. ”
1 John 4:1-3, 9-10, 14-15 KJV

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“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. ”
1 John 5:20 KJV

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[NayborBear]

Ane....has anointed You with the Oil of gladness above Your companions..... shows 2 Gods but I do not know who His companions were.

No? Not 2 Gods. That takes understanding the "Government of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light."
Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Understanding who "his companions" are?
Requires further "spiritual sacrifices" acceptable to God by Jesus Christ of Nazareth. 1 Peter 2:5
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

As well as an understanding that this "current division" of eternity, isn't the first, or only "division/s" that have, are, or, shall come to pass here on this 3rd rock from the sun. (apologies for an attempt at humor here)

It's easier to be and remain confused concerning God the "creator" and that part of "the government of the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Light," Who is in this "Covenant relationship" with mankind, then it is in correctly executing 1 Peter 2:5.