Is Revelation 20:1-6 really a recap?

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WPM

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We agree on the importance of Scripture. As I've told you many times, the Millennium is based not so much on the mention of a "thousand years" in Rev 20, but more on the existence of a mortal world following the Return of Christ. He returns to the earth and establishes the Kingdom of God. And that Kingdom is described as a mortal Kingdom in the OT Prophets.

We do agree, however, that the Kingdom Christ will come back and establish will be a "world without end." (I was raised an Amil Lutheran--it was part of our liturgy.)
This is a major difference between Premillennialism and Amillennialism: you analyze every passage in Holy Writ through the lens of your mistaken understanding of Revelation 20. Amillennialism interprets Revelation 20 through the lens of the rest of Scripture. This gives us a proper sense of this highly debated passage in the most obscure setting in Scripture.

Premillennialism is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter, 3 chapters before the end of the Bible, located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support all its main tenets. This is demonstrated by the fact, there is not one single second coming passage in the Bible that teaches 1000 years (or any significant period of time) follows this great glorious event where sin and death continue. Amils have a problem with, and are opposed to, this loose form of hermeneutics and questionable mode of exegesis.
 

WPM

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So why are some of these Amils purposely misrepresenting Premil by claiming deception is rampant throughout Premil's proposed millennium? Especially when some of these Amils were Premil before they became Amil?

This battle has been long won. That is why you duck post after post that forbids Premil. You have simply no answers. All your theories have been repeatedly refuted.

Jesus said in John 3:19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jesus shined the light and it dispelled the darkness. In fact, wherever this light shines it removes ignorance and deception and enlightens and sets men free. No one could surely deny that this light has been shining strong upon the Gentiles for 2,000 year. The evidence is there for all to see.

When Paul was given an assignment to invade the nations with the Gospel in Acts 26:17-18, it went like this,

Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


Did this mean that the deception that blinded the Gentiles would finally be lifted from all the darkened Gentiles? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Jesus, here, directly links the spiritual darkness enveloping the Gentiles to the power of Satan. He connects the Gentiles turning from darkness to light through the advance of the great commission to the deliverance of the Gentiles from the bondage or chains of Satan. This is how the gross darkness would be (and was) removed that hung over the Gentiles throughout the old covenant period. This is how they were delivered from the power of Satan to God to liberty in Christ.

Satan hates us shining a light. He knows that the reception of that light breaks the bondage of sin and sets men free.

The reason Satan’s authority was overrun throughout the nations was the power of the Word of God. It is the same tonight – or an hour day.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

1 John 2:8:the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

A result of the first Advent and the life, death and first resurrection of Jesus was that the ignorance was removed, the Gospel opportunity was widened out to the Gentiles. They no longer sat in darkness, ignorance and hopelessness deceived by the devil in their paganism.

Does this passage suggest there is no more darkness in this world any longer? Does this mean everyone is now enlightened? Of course not! This is a spiritual generality. This is common in Scripture. It is demonstrating the powerful result of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. This is testifying of the massive change that occurred with the global assault upon the kingdom of darkness. This is showing the impact of the success of the great commission. Men throughout the nations are now without excuse. The truth has been spread to the uttermost parts of the earth. This is saying the exact same as Revelation 20:2.

Acts 14:16 confirms that Godin times past (talking about before the cross) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

Acts 17:30 says,the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

Ephesians 2:11-12: "remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world."

Ephesians 5:8: "ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light."

Before the cross the Gentiles were considered blind, ignorant, in bondage and living in darkness, deceived by the father of lies. Satan had them hoodwinked. He ruled the nations. He had them under his control. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse.
 

Davidpt

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Isa 2:1-4nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.[/B]

But look what Jesus said, though.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more---For nation shall rise against nation

Which one is true if both are involving the same era of time? But look what happens if both are not involving the same era of time. Now both are true and there is zero contradiction. IOW, the fulfillment of Matthew 24:7-8 occurs in this age. The fulfilling of Isaiah 2:4 occurs during the millennium after Christ returns in the end of this age.

In order for nation to not lift up sword against nation, it requires at minimum 2 nations not doing that to each other. If you insist Isaiah 2:4 is applicable to the here and now, and I'm sure you do insist, you then need to provide at least 2 nations not lifting up sword against each other, since it is absurd that nation plus another nation does not equal at least 2 nations or more.

What you will probably tell me rather than you addressing and explaining this, that I simply lack spiritual discernment. Yet, no matter how you look at it you still can't have nation not lifting up sword against nation without it involving at least 2 nations. Spiritualizing this is not going to solve the math requirement here. Not to mention, obviously more than just 2 nations are meant here, but at least 2 at a minimum.
 
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Davidpt

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This is a major difference between Premillennialism and Amillennialism: you analyze every passage in Holy Writ through the lens of your mistaken understanding of Revelation 20. Amillennialism interprets Revelation 20 through the lens of the rest of Scripture. This gives us a proper sense of this highly debated passage in the most obscure setting in Scripture.

Premillennialism is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter, 3 chapters before the end of the Bible, located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support all its main tenets. This is demonstrated by the fact, there is not one single second coming passage in the Bible that teaches 1000 years (or any significant period of time) follows this great glorious event where sin and death continue. Amils have a problem with, and are opposed to, this loose form of hermeneutics and questionable mode of exegesis.

It might be different if Amil had a solution for a number of passages that are meaning post the 2nd coming, yet require more than a single day to fulfill, but is not involving all of eternity.
 

Randy Kluth

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Hello! All these billions of Satanists (as the sand of the sea) live in your supposed millennium of peace and harmony acting live submissive subjects of your future kingdom, while all the time feigning their veneration of Christ. What a debacle! What a joke! These millennial mortals must qualify to be the most belligerent, stiff-necked, hard-nosed, stubborn, obstinate company of humans ever to grace this earth. They are way more intransigent than the Pharisees that only had 3 ½ years of resisting the person and ministry in his mortal body. For 1,000 years they refuse to receive the glorified Christ sitting in all His eternal majesty. How could they resist Him? How could they deny His authenticity?
Who said that billions of people during the Millennium were resistant to peace during the Millennium? You are saying that to disqualify my scenario on a false assumption, that people are resisting the peace that exists during the Millennium! It is when Satan is released *after* the Millennium that the carnal nature of many men is exploited and used to create, once again, international turmoil.
 

Randy Kluth

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This is a major difference between Premillennialism and Amillennialism: you analyze every passage in Holy Writ through the lens of your mistaken understanding of Revelation 20.
I said the exact opposite, that my brand of Premil is based not on Rev 20 and its 1000 year period, but rather, on the Prophets' view of mortal humanity after the coming of the Messianic Kingdom. It is plainly a mortal Kingdom that qualifies as the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham. So you begin your argument with a false presumption. I'm not basing my arguments on Rev 20 at all!
Amillennialism interprets Revelation 20 through the lens of the rest of Scripture. This gives us a proper sense of this highly debated passage in the most obscure setting in Scripture.
As I said I believe Amils view this the exact opposite of what you're saying. They read back from Rev 20 a spiritual, allegorical interpretation of the Millennium into the writings of the Prophets. You will see no Millennium in the form of a thousand years at all in the Prophets. So Amils must get their Amil view from Rev 20 and an allegorical interpretation of the thousand years.
Premillennialism is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20.
The exact opposite. The Kingdom Age is depicted in the Prophets and is believed in by the Jewish People with no consideration for Rev 20 at all!

You can believe what you want. Let others believe based on real arguments--not false ones, or misrepresentations of what they supposedly believe.
 

ewq1938

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Yes, it appears the Amil Millennium is a spiritualized rebellion--one that has been neutralized by a spiritualized Salvation.


Sorry, I did not mean it that way. In the Amill Mill. Christians are killed, and the gospel is not allowed to reach many peoples. Christians are NOT reigning over the nations with a rod of iron right now so current time is not a match to the Mill. It is literally the opposite of the true Millennium.
 

ewq1938

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So why are some of these Amils purposely misrepresenting Premil by claiming deception is rampant throughout Premil's proposed millennium? Especially when some of these Amils were Premil before they became Amil?

It's just a standard strawman fallacy argument and odder still because it is their Millennium that is such a sinful, evil disaster not Premill's.
 

Marty fox

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Yes, if we reign with Christ now, in the matter of Spiritual Salvation, then our reign will never end. But I can't characterize our victory now as a "reign," because the Kingdom has not yet come. In the book of Revelation, ch. 11, the Kingdom comes in the future. And Jesus said that the Kingdom is "near," but not yet "here."

Yes, mortal nations on earth do fail presently. I'm suggesting that they will not fail in the age of the Kingdom--not because they have become perfect yet, but only because they no longer have Satan opposing them.

What is it that constitutes success in the next age that isn't happening in the present age? The promises God made to Abraham is that he would have Israel and many nations carrying on his tradition of faith in God. In the present age, we've had both Israel and many nations carrying the tradition of faith in God. But they don't last. In the next age I believe they will last, despite the final opposition that Satan will bring.
I know that you are a believer that Israel as a nation will be saved but Before Paul said that Paul also said that not all Israel is Israel Paul was talking about true Israel the church

Even Jesus said that the kingdom will be taken from national Israel

The Parable of the Tenants​

33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[h]?

43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”[i]
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.


The Parable of the Wedding Banquet​

22 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests

Im not talking about replacement theology but covenant theology
 
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ewq1938

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I know that you are a believer that Israel as a nation will be saved but Before Paul said that Paul also said that not all Israel is Israel Paul was talking about true Israel the church

Yep. Israel the spiritual nation will be saved, all of them. Unbelievers regardless of race will not be saved.
 
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Marty fox

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He did not reign over the nations as promised in Rev 19, and Rev 20 shows people who died in the trib resurrecting and reigning with Christ. None of that applies to Paul because he lived and died before the events of Rev 19-20. He also has not been resurrected.

Yes Paul had spiritually and used the very same words as Revelation 20:4

Ephesians 2
6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
 
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TribulationSigns

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Sorry, I did not mean it that way. In the Amill Mill. Christians are killed, and the gospel is not allowed to reach many peoples.

Huh? Scripture with its context please, to see if you know what you are talking about. Amillennial Christians being killed? And that caused the gospel not to reach many people? What...

Christians are NOT reigning over the nations with a rod of iron right now so current time is not a match to the Mill.

Yes.

Christ is reigning over nations (gentiles) THROUGH THE CHURCH.

Rev 12:4-6

(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Christ born from a woman who represented the Old Testament Israel in verse 5. Christ died and ascended to God and HIS THRONE with a rod of Iron which is why He send the woman, NOW representing the New Testament congregation since the Cross to preach the Gospel. So yes, Christ ruled the nations (gentiles) THROUGH THE CHURCH.


It is literally the opposite of the true Millennium.

You deny the true Millennium — Christ’s present reign through His Church since the Cross.

The Kingdom did not wait for a future geopolitical throne in the Middle East. Christ is reigning NOW and has been since the Cross. Didn't Christ bound the strong man at the Cross, ascended to the right hand of the Father, and rules through His body — the Church??

The Millennium is not a postponed earthly political system with physical building and stones. It is the spiritual reign of Christ over His redeemed people, the stones of his temple!

To push the Kingdom into a future physical regime in Jerusalem is to overlook the present reality of Christ’s authority and the expansion of His rule through the Gospel.

The question is simple:
Is Christ reigning now — or not?

If He is seated at the right hand of God with all authority in heaven and earth, then His Kingdom is not waiting for a future earthly throne. It is already established and advancing through the Church.

Selah!
 
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Marty fox

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Why didn't you use the spiritual key in Rev 20 to lock satan in the pit prison? Why would you only "bind" him? Why is satan not locked in that prison? He shouldn't even be around to be "bound" by you if this is the 1000 years because Rev 20 says he is bound at the very same time the 1000 years happens yet in your 1000 years he is actively attacking Christians who have to "bind" him themselves which does not imprison him at all. It's like catching a murderer then not locking him in jail.

Because it’s not a literal locked prison

At the cross as Revelation 12 shows below satan was kicked out of heaven and sent to the earth, I now believe that the earth is the abyss. Satan is banished their from heaven and heaven is locked for him so he can’t go back up

Revelation 12
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

I believe Michael was that angel in verse 1

Revelation 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

So yes satan is running rampant like a lion but the church over come him while here on earth by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. The word of our testimony is the word of God the power and authority of the gospel. God banished satan here but not without giving anyone authority to overcome satan who choose to bind him with the great chain

Thats what I did satan attacked me and I used the great chain and satan was bound by the authority of the scriptures but we have to keep our faith and use it, the thousand years is the church age
 
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Marty fox

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But if he is already bound according to you, it seems absurd to have to bind him yet again. I'm not saying your experience was not real. I believe you 100%. I'm saying it makes zero sense to bind someone that is already bound. Therefore, satan is not already bound, otherwise you would not have needed to bind him some more. That gives the impression that satan gets loose all the time and needs to be bound again. Except how can satan get free from his restraint if his restraint is for 1000 years? Well 2000 years and counting if you are an Amil.

Your experience undeniably proves that satan is not bound. Yet somehow you think it proves he is bound. I can't figure that logic out?
Please read my post #73 it explains it all.

The great chain needs to be used by us it’s not literal but the authority of scripture
 

Randy Kluth

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I know that you are a believer that Israel as a nation will be saved but Before Paul said that Paul also said that not all Israel is Israel Paul was talking about true Israel the church

Even Jesus said that the kingdom will be taken from national Israel
Yes, I do understand this perspective, though I don't interpret it the same way you do. Yes, Israel was replaced by the international Church in the present age. What that means to me is that Israel's theocracy passed to Christian nations beginning with the Roman Empire, which was converted under Constantine and Theodosius.

But I believe Israel will be *politically saved* as a nation of faith after Christ returns. What that means is that the nation will be reconstituted as a nation safe from its enemies, and will embrace a Christian form of government in the new Kingdom Age, which I believe is coming.

I don't at all believe that in the passing of the torch of theocratic government from Israel to Church that the term "Israel" became redefined to designate the Church. We may term the Church as a kind of "Spiritual Israel," but it certainly is not Israel technically, since Israel is a nation, and the Church consists of many nations, eventually including Israel, as well.

Many nations have included Christians that were not really Christian nations. They also are represented in the Church. But the nations I believe God promised Abraham were nations who have adopted Christian constitutions. And Israel will do that as well one day, when Christ returns.

So, although Israel's reconstitution as a nation of faith will involve many of her citizens getting "spiritually Saved," I believe Paul was focusing on the OT concept of Israel's "political Salvation," which is necessary to fulfill her promise to become a full nation of faith.
 

Randy Kluth

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Sorry, I did not mean it that way. In the Amill Mill. Christians are killed, and the gospel is not allowed to reach many peoples. Christians are NOT reigning over the nations with a rod of iron right now so current time is not a match to the Mill. It is literally the opposite of the true Millennium.
I understood what you meant. I just did not come across very well.

What I meant to say is that the Millennium that the Amils propose in the current NT era, reflects a "spiritualized rebellion," now neutralized by our spiritual Salvation. They think that when we got Saved, or Regenerated, our carnal rebellion was crushed and defeated, bringing about a spiritualized "peace."

In this way, they believe, Satan was "bound." And we now experience, in a sense, world peace. Their "Millennium" is a "Spiritualized Millenium."

So, the current international distress we're experiencing in this age is not real or significant to them, in light of our "spiritual Salvation." On the other hand, Premils view the current international distress as invalidating any sense that the Millennium, and its Peace, currently exists. Our own Salvation is not, by definition, World Peace!
 
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Zao is life

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I think only doctrinal bias can keep someone from relating Satan's fall from heaven to his binding.

No - only doctrinal bias can cause someone to relate Satan's being cast down to earth and going to war against the woman who brought Christ into the world and then against the saints to "Satan's binding".

There is nothing in the text of Revelation 12 to even hint - let alone imply - that Satan was bound from causing harm ON EARTH when he was cast down to the earth.

Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven long ago, resulting in Satan no longer being able to accuse believers before God in heaven.

@Davidpt did not say any different - and the above fact does not support your theory, so why bring it up?

Paul asked in Romans 8:33, "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?" and the answer is no one. Including Satan. No one can accuse believers anymore because our sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

Again, the above fact does not support your theory that Satan is not able to cause harm on THE EARTH to which he had been cast down - and Revelation 12 tells us unambiguously that is exactly what he set out to do - having great rage because he knew he had been defeated by the cross of Christ, and has a short time (his days are numbered).

I'm sure you would agree that the beast was in the bottomless pit at the time the book of Revelation was written, as Revelation 17:8 indicates when it says the beast "was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit". That obviously implies that it was in the bottomless pit at the time since it says it would ascend from there at some later time. Your understanding of being in the bottomless pit is that it causes whatever is in the bottomless pit (Satan, the beast, the demonic locusts)

Nowhere does the Revelation or anything else in the New Testament tell us that Satan is in the bottomless pit where those fallen angels and demonic 'locusts' are bound, and where Revelation 17 implies that the beast is bound.

You have added the devil in the abyss because of an assumption based on nothing more or less than an eschatological doctrinal bias.

You make it so obvious by the above statements that you have based Satan in the bottomless pit on your Amil assumption. I don't know why, but you seem to think you can convince others of what is not written just because you are convinced it is written after imagination has Satan planted in the pit with them.

to be completely incapacitated.

He will be completely incapacitated and it's too bad that adding Satan currently in the abyss to scripture has caused you to take away from scripture the real meaning of the metaphors used in Revelation 20:1-3 of a key to the bottomless pit, a chain, binding, being shut up, and a seal set upon him so that he cannot deceive - key word deceive - the nations for a thousand years.

Though it says the beast "is not" at the time the book was written, it also says one of its heads "is" at that time (Revelation 17:10).

The beast is not Satan. Satan will control the beast when the star that fell from heaven opens the bottomless pit - which is what Revelation 13 tells us.

Satan entered the first "son of perdition". There is a second (and only one other) that is also called "the son of perdition" in the New Testament

- and Revelation 17 tells us the beast that will ascend out of the abyss will go to perdition.

Satan was not bound in the abyss then, and has never been been bound in the abyss.

You try unsuccessfully to use scriptures to support your theory just because in your imagination those scriptures support your theory, even though they don't.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare to:

Revelation 20:6they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Compare the past tense of "hath made us" with the future tense of "they shall be" while you compare scripture with scripture. It will help you not to remove your thinking cap by removing past tense from future tense:

If Revelation 20:6 isn't a recap of Revelation 1:5-6, then I don't know what a recap is. LOL

You're 100% correct. You don't know what a recap is. LOL.
 
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rwb

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You don't believe the scripture below represents the Lords "Future" Second Coming?

Revelation 19:11-16KJV

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

You don't believe the scripture below represents the "Future" final judgement and eternal lake of fire?

Revelation 19:20KJV

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10-15KJV
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I believe the gates of heaven that saints might enter in was opened once Christ came to make atonement for sin and defeat death. IMO Rev 19 is showing us all that has come and is coming to pass as the gospel of the Kingdom of God has been sent unto all the nations of the world. We know that heaven was opened when we read of Christ through His Spirit descending first to the lower parts of the earth to set the faithful captives of old free from bondage to the grave.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Rev 19 in MO depicts the entire age of the gospel of the Kingdom of God being sent unto all people after Christ's cross & resurrection. John describes not only how Christ and His saints have been and are fighting a spiritual battle, but also how the battle ends with all the forces of evil being forever cast into the eternal flames of God's wrath.
 

rwb

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It might be different if Amil had a solution for a number of passages that are meaning post the 2nd coming, yet require more than a single day to fulfill, but is not involving all of eternity.

The number of passages that premillennialists think come after Christ's second coming, MUST, MUST, MUST be SPIRITUALLY discerned!!! It only appears to conflict with amillennialism because premills try to force physical fulfillment upon MANY of the prophecies of Old.
 
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Davidpt

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The question is simple:
Is Christ reigning now — or not?

That's not the question. The question is, is Christ reigning now and will He still be reigning in the same manner, except bodily, when He returns? The answer to both questions is yes. But Amil only wants Him reigning now in an unseen manner and apparently do not see Him having the ability to reign over the earth in a seen manner, as in literally bodily present. Or maybe Amil thinks He is unworthy of such a task?

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


Even though this is a parable, no one can claim He is not bodily back on the earth here. Right? Meaning no one who is being intellectually honest.

BTW, verse 27 clearly proves He is already reigning before He returns---But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them

Except there is a difference, IMO, of reigning over someone vs reigning with someone. While Christ is away He reigning over believers. When He returns believers will be rewarded with reigning with Him because they allowed Him to reign over them while He was away. The reason these in verse 27 are His enemis is because they did not allow Him to reign over them while He was away. I tend to think these are likely meaning the unprofitable servants of His within the church while He is away. But others might take these enemies to mean all the lost in general. Yet look what the text stated earlier---But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Is one to believe His citizens include atheists, satanists, unrepentant witches, murderers, child molestors, so on and so on?

My view requires that some of the lost, but not all of the lost, are resurrected when He comes. Daniel 12:2 supports this. And so does the sheep and goats judgment in Matthew 25.The lost meant in Daniel 12:2 is not meaning the lost in general, it is meaning the lost within the body of Christ. It is meaning the apostates. And the same is true of the goats meant in Matthew 25. They are meaning the lost, the apostates, within the body of Christ and not all the lost in general. Anyone objectively comparing to Revelation 20:11-15 should easily be able to see these are not the same judgment.

In Matthew 25 all those that appear here are gathered and separated into 2 groups. And that all from both groups answer Jesus collectively as a group, in the same manner. No way is anyone seen depicted doing that in Revelation 20:11-15, though.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

First these are judged, except they are not yet including all of the dead that are to be judged here. Then when the judging of these are complete, another group of the dead are judged next, verse 13. None of this even remotely aligns with what the judgment involving the sheep and goats is depicting.

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works---does not equal this---Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?---nor this---Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


As if it makes sense, take Cain, for instance. That if he is among the dead in Revelation 20:11-15, and surely he is, that he too answers in this manner--Lord, when saw I thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Or use an unbelieving Jew as example if you still don't get it, that it is profoundly absurd, thus entirely out of context, that anyone who is not a professed servant of Christ would be answering Jesus in that manner, period.
 
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