Is Revelation 20:1-6 really a recap?

[Zao is life]

You can try to argue that Apollyon/Abaddon is not another name for Satan all you want, but if you agree that the locusts symbolically represent fallen angels then Apollyon/Abaddon has to be another name for Satan because it says he is their king

It's a logical fallacy. Abaddon is a PLACE in all these verses of scripture:

Psalm 88:11
Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness IN abaddon [H00011]?

Proverbs 15:11
Sheol (hades) and abaddon are before the Lord: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Job 26:6
Sheol (hades) is naked before him, and abaddon has no covering.

Job 28:22
Abaddon and death say, We have heard the fame thereof with our ears.

Job 31:12
For it is a fire that consumeth TO ABADDON, and would root out all mine increase.

Compare:

Job 28:22
Abaddon and death say, We have heard the fame thereof with our ears

with:

Revelation 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 9:11
And they had a king over them, which is the messenger (angel) of the bottomless pit, the same [G0846 auto] is named abaddon in the Hebrew tongue, but in the Greek tongue named apollyon.

The church in Philadelphia had a messenger. Is the messenger the same as the place?

If the synagogue of Satan likewise had a messenger, who would that be, do you think?

The messenger of the place is not the same as the place. Nor does it either state or imply that the messenger who is - OR is going to be - king over them is in the bottomless pit with them OR that the pit needs to be opened before he can come out.

You grasp at straws in the form of logical fallacies, straw man arguments and red herrings like this such a lot it's almost impossible for anyone - let alone @Davidpt - to keep up with all your straw.

 

[Davidpt]

It's a logical fallacy. Abaddon is a PLACE in all these verses of scripture:

Psalm 88:11
Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness IN abaddon [H00011]?

Proverbs 15:11
Sheol (hades) and abaddon are before the Lord: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Job 26:6
Sheol (hades) is naked before him, and abaddon has no covering.

Job 28:22
Abaddon and death say, We have heard the fame thereof with our ears.

Job 31:12
For it is a fire that consumeth TO ABADDON, and would root out all mine increase.

Compare:

Job 28:22
Abaddon and death say, We have heard the fame thereof with our ears

with:

Revelation 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 9:11
And they had a king over them, which is the messenger (angel) of the bottomless pit, the same [G0846 auto] is named abaddon in the Hebrew tongue, but in the Greek tongue named apollyon.

The messenger of the place is not the same as the place. Nor does it either state or imply that the messenger who is - OR is going to be - king over them is in the bottomless pit with them OR that the pit needs to be opened before he can come out.

You grasp at straws in the form of logical fallacies, straw man arguments and red herrings like this such a lot it's almost impossible for anyone - let alone @Davidpt - to keep up with all your straw.

That was very insightful. Speaking for myself, I never realized any of that. But now I do. Thanks.

 

[Davidpt]

The number of passages that premillennialists think come after Christ's second coming, MUST, MUST, MUST be SPIRITUALLY discerned!!! It only appears to conflict with amillennialism because premills try to force physical fulfillment upon MANY of the prophecies of Old.

If only it was that simple. Except it isn't when some of these passages in question come across as nonsensical if they are not involving an era of time after Christ has returned, but are not involving all of eternity. Therefore, an era of time after Christ returns, an era of time that has a beginning and an end, is required in order to fulfill these.

In my mind, pertaining to prophecies in general, regardless what sense they are fulfilled in, still require a sensible chronology. Even Revelation 20 proves a sensible chronology is required, no matter how one might interpret some of those verses. For example. No one would claim satan is bound for a thousand years before the time of this thousand years arrives first. No one would insist his little season precedes his thousand year binding. So on and so on. Therefore, even if one applies these prophecies to the here and now, it still has to involve sensible chronology.

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 19:1-3 (KJV) And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

The great whore who was of their father the Devil was cast out of heaven and to the earth his demonic hosts being cast out with him. Salvation had come, and the kingdom of God, and the power of Christ, the accuser could no longer accuse the redeemed saints of old as he had before Christ came to earth, as he had Job. God's servants of old have been avenged through the blood of the Lamb. The Covenant promise to redeem them from death fulfilled. They went from Covenant promise of old to Covenant fulfillment through Christ. They are no longer waiting under the altar but are now with the Lord in heaven a spiritual body, living souls. (Rev 6:9-11)

Obviously, in Revelation 19 it is a continuation of what just occurred in ch 18. Where do you see anyone being cast out of heaven in ch 18?

Revelation 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

News alert. God does not avenge anything until the little season meant in Revelation 6 has been fulfilled first. In Revelation 18 which leads into Revelation 19, this is meaning after the little season per Revelation 6 has been fulfilled first.

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The chronological order is this. And yes, I realize Amils in particular are notorious a lot of the time for disregarding chronology altogether---How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?--- rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled = then shall any avenging of you come.

And that we clearly see in Revelation 18 that God hath avenged you on her, and a 2nd witness to that fact in ch 19---for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

You are clearly confused about some of these things if you are interpreting some of Revelation 19 in the manner you are. But it doesn't have to be hopeless, though. Simply toss your current interpretation of some of these verses out the window and simply start over, and maybe try agreeing with the texts involved for a change, rather than trying to force the texts to agree with you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If only it was that simple. Except it isn't when some of these passages in question come across as nonsensical if they are not involving an era of time after Christ has returned, but are not involving all of eternity. Therefore, an era of time after Christ returns, an era of time that has a beginning and an end, is required in order to fulfill these.

In my mind, pertaining to prophecies in general, regardless what sense they are fulfilled in, still require a sensible chronology. Even Revelation 20 proves a sensible chronology is required, no matter how one might interpret some of those verses. For example. No one would claim satan is bound for a thousand years before the time of this thousand years arrives first. No one would insist his little season precedes his thousand year binding. So on and so on. Therefore, even if one applies these prophecies to the here and now, it still has to involve sensible chronology.

Yes, the physical earth MUST, MUST, MUST be recognized as literal if the Scriptures are even to be believed. Can you see Christ coming back to a non-physical earth and standing upon non-physical ground? And we're told we MUST, MUST, MUST NOT believe it is real, physical dirt?

I suppose we have to believe what we choose to believe? I choose to believe that Israel will be politically saved at Christ's return. And that means Israel must continue to be a nation among other literal nations, experiencing peaceful relations with them. There is nothing awkward or unbiblical about believing this must happen to fulfill God's promises BEFORE the New Earth emerges in its eternal state of existence!

 

[Marty fox]

Yes, I do understand this perspective, though I don't interpret it the same way you do. Yes, Israel was replaced by the international Church in the present age. What that means to me is that Israel's theocracy passed to Christian nations beginning with the Roman Empire, which was converted under Constantine and Theodosius.

But I believe Israel will be *politically saved* as a nation of faith after Christ returns. What that means is that the nation will be reconstituted as a nation safe from its enemies, and will embrace a Christian form of government in the new Kingdom Age, which I believe is coming.

I don't at all believe that in the passing of the torch of theocratic government from Israel to Church that the term "Israel" became redefined to designate the Church. We may term the Church as a kind of "Spiritual Israel," but it certainly is not Israel technically, since Israel is a nation, and the Church consists of many nations, eventually including Israel, as well.

Many nations have included Christians that were not really Christian nations. They also are represented in the Church. But the nations I believe God promised Abraham were nations who have adopted Christian constitutions. And Israel will do that as well one day, when Christ returns.

So, although Israel's reconstitution as a nation of faith will involve many of her citizens getting "spiritually Saved," I believe Paul was focusing on the OT concept of Israel's "political Salvation," which is necessary to fulfill her promise to become a full nation of faith.

But Paul states not all Israel is Israel and then states all Israel will be saved

How can all Israel be saved if many ethnic Israelites weren’t saved

National Israel wasn’t replaced by the church some were just a part of the ongoing church spiritual Israel before Jacob started in Genesis chapter five and went up to Isaac

Interesting at church today the sermon was on

John 8

Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are​

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[b]”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”


The Jews tried using the ”we are Abraham’s descendants“ but Jesus told them that that means nothing it’s who does what Abraham did who are Abraham’s true descendants, they were satans children

 

[Zao is life]

The number of passages that premillennialists think come after Christ's second coming, MUST, MUST, MUST be SPIRITUALLY discerned!!! It only appears to conflict with amillennialism because premills try to force physical fulfillment upon MANY of the prophecies of Old.

Let's stay with the New Testament.

Must Christ's coming in the flesh be spiritually discerned too? Is it not literal?
Must Christ's bodily resurrection be spiritually discerned too? Is it not literal?
Must Christ's bodily ascension be spiritually discerned too? Is it not literal?
Must Christ's bodily return be spiritually discerned too? Is it not literal?
Must the bodily resurrection of the dead at the time of Christ's return be spiritually discerned too? Is it not literal?
Must the word "earth" in the words "new heavens and new earth" be spiritually discerned too? Is it not literal?
Must John seeing a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God;

and judgment being given unto them which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands (Rev 15:2; Rev 20:4) be spiritually discerned too? Is it not literal?

(Preterists interpret Christ's return in a non-literal way - and they do so "with spiritual discernment" - in their opinion).

The gnostics interpreted even Christ's first coming that way !

Are you 100% sure that you have the spiritual discernment - that you indirectly assert Premils lack - to be able to spiritually discern which things in Revelation 20 have a spiritual application and which things a literal application?

Copy @TribulationSigns
Copy @Davidpt

 

[Zao is life]

That was very insightful. Speaking for myself, I never realized any of that. But now I do. Thanks.

Also, the church in Philadelphia had a messenger. The messenger is not the same as the place. If the synagogue of Satan likewise had a messenger, the messenger wouldn't be the same thing as the synagogue.

 

[Davidpt]

Yes, the physical earth MUST, MUST, MUST be recognized as literal if the Scriptures are even to be believed. Can you see Christ coming back to a non-physical earth and standing upon non-physical ground? And we're told we MUST, MUST, MUST NOT believe it is real, physical dirt?

I suppose we have to believe what we choose to believe? I choose to believe that Israel will be politically saved at Christ's return. And that means Israel must continue to be a nation among other literal nations, experiencing peaceful relations with them. There is nothing awkward or unbiblical about believing this must happen to fulfill God's promises BEFORE the New Earth emerges in its eternal state of existence!

Amil, but maybe not all Amils, need the entire planet to be engulfed in flames per the 2nd coming in order for there to be no habitable earth for Christ to return to with His kingdom He brings with Him. Therefore, in their mind, Premil is impossible based on that alone, since there is no habitable earth remaining.

And that Amils insist He doesn't set foot on earth again until after the GWTJ and that the NJ has come down from heaven. Which then means He is returning, not to somewhere He previously was, but to some realm He previously wasn't. Which is already contradicting, that to return to somewhere, it means to return to somewhere one was previously, then left that location.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Here's an interesting thought I came up with awhile back. Assuming one can follow what I'm getting at here. Suppose one had a cellphone back in those days and recorded this event from start to finish. Then suppose they played the video in reverse. What would it then show Christ doing at the end of this video which is actually the beginning of it? It would show Him setting foot on earth after having descended from the sky above, of course.

 

[Truth7t7]

how the battle ends with all the forces of evil being forever cast into the eternal flames of God's wrath.

You previously stated that Revelation Chapter 19 has been fullfilled, and now your talking about a "Future" battle ending as seen in bold red above?

"Yes" the scripture below shows the Lords second coming and final judgement taking place, your previous claim that Revelation Chapter 19 is fulfilled is 100% "Wrong"

Do you believe the scripture below represents the Lords "Future" Second Coming?

Revelation 19:11-16KJV
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Do you believe the scripture below represents the "Future" final judgement and eternal lake of fire?

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10-15KJV
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[rwb]

You previously stated that Revelation Chapter 19 has been fullfilled, and now your talking about a "Future" battle ending as seen in bold red above?

What I'm talking about is how fulfillment is happening NOW since the advent of Christ but will not be complete until the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound. Many refer to this as "already, but not yet" understanding of Scripture.

"Yes" the scripture below shows the Lords second coming and final judgement taking place, your previous claim that Revelation Chapter 19 is fulfilled is 100% "Wrong"

That is not the message I intended to portray. My apologies if I caused you confusion.

Do you believe the scripture below represents the Lords "Future" Second Coming?

Revelation 19:11-16KJV
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

No! I believe this particular part of the chapter is referring to the first coming of Christ with the Kingdom of God that is not a kingdom of this world, cannot be visibly observed, is within you, and can only be known and entered when we are born again. Because the Kingdom of God now in this age of time is within you, a spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, not a physical kingdom upon this earth.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Christ is the rider on the white horse who goes forth conquering, and to conquer (Rev 6:2). In righteousness through the Word of God He judges and makes war against spiritual enemies of righteousness. As time marches on instead of having "a crown given to Him" at the first of Him coming, now on His head are many crowns, (no longer a remnant but now an innumerable multitude) bearing the name known only by Himself, Jesus. The name of Jesus was not known from old and only became known at His birth when He was named JESUS. The Old Covenant people knew the promised one by the name Emmanuel, meaning God with us, but the name of JESUS was unknown by any man before Christ was born.

Revelation 6:2 (KJV) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Luke 1:31-33 (KJV) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23 (KJV) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

After His blood was shed on the cross and He resurrected from the dead, John reveals this one called Emmanuel, God with us, JESUS is the Word of God made flesh, begotten of the Father.

John 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The armies that follow Christ on white horses are His faithful saints who through His Word (sword) preached, smites the nations who might now hear the Word proclaimed. The Word of God, gospel of the Kingdom of God is the rod of iron because it is a savor of life for those who believe or the savor of death for those who remain in unbelief. Warning all man everywhere of the fierceness and wrath of God Almighty.

Revelation 17:14 (KJV) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

2 Corinthians 2:14-17 (KJV) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[rwb]

Do you believe the scripture below represents the "Future" final judgement and eternal lake of fire?

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10-15KJV
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, I believe this is a depiction of Satan's little season after time given this earth, symbolized a thousand years expires. After his little season when this heaven and earth have fled away, ALL the DEAD shall be called before the GWTJ to give account according to all that is written in the books and the book of life. Death, hell, the beast, false prophet, whosoever had received the mark of the beast, along with the Devil/Satan and whosoever is not found written in the book of life shall be cast alive into the LOF that is the second death.

 

[Truth7t7]

What I'm talking about is how fulfillment is happening NOW since the advent of Christ but will not be complete until the last/seventh trumpet begins to sound. Many refer to this as "already, but not yet" understanding of Scripture.

The second coming "Leaving Heaven" and final judgement seen in Rev 19 is a "Future" event that's clearly seen, a "Future" event unfulfilled

The "already but not yet" doctrine?

Real Big Smiles To That False Teaching!!!!!

No! I believe this particular part of the chapter is referring to the first coming of Christ with the Kingdom of God that is not a kingdom of this world, cannot be visibly observed, is within you, and can only be known and entered when we are born again. Because the Kingdom of God now in this age of time is within you, a spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, not a physical kingdom upon this earth.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Christ is the rider on the white horse who goes forth conquering, and to conquer (Rev 6:2). In righteousness through the Word of God He judges and makes war against spiritual enemies of righteousness. As time marches on instead of having "a crown given to Him" at the first of Him coming, now on His head are many crowns, (no longer a remnant but now an innumerable multitude) bearing the name known only by Himself, Jesus. The name of Jesus was not known from old and only became known at His birth when He was named JESUS. The Old Covenant people knew the promised one by the name Emmanuel, meaning God with us, but the name of JESUS was unknown by any man before Christ was born.

Revelation 6:2 (KJV) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Luke 1:31-33 (KJV) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV) Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23 (KJV) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

After His blood was shed on the cross and He resurrected from the dead, John reveals this one called Emmanuel, God with us, JESUS is the Word of God made flesh, begotten of the Father.

John 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The armies that follow Christ on white horses are His faithful saints who through His Word (sword) preached, smites the nations who might now hear the Word proclaimed. The Word of God, gospel of the Kingdom of God is the rod of iron because it is a savor of life for those who believe or the savor of death for those who remain in unbelief. Warning all man everywhere of the fierceness and wrath of God Almighty.

Revelation 17:14 (KJV) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

2 Corinthians 2:14-17 (KJV) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

I stongly disagree, Rev chapter 19 clearly depicts the second coming and final judgement as seen many places in the bible

The Second Coming "Future" Unfulfilled

Revelation 19:8 & 14KJV
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jude 1:14KJV
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1 Thessalonians 3:13KJV
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, I believe this is a depiction of Satan's little season after time given this earth, symbolized a thousand years expires. After his little season when this heaven and earth have fled away, ALL the DEAD shall be called before the GWTJ to give account according to all that is written in the books and the book of life. Death, hell, the beast, false prophet, whosoever had received the mark of the beast, along with the Devil/Satan and whosoever is not found written in the book of life shall be cast alive into the LOF that is the second death.

You previously stated Revelation Chapter 19 is fulfilled, now your back peddling in claims you see the final judgment and its future, your all over the map

A Big Head Shake, Big Smiles!

 

[rwb]

Real Big Smiles To That False Teaching!!!!!

How can you say its false if you don't know what it is? Christ has already come with the Kingdom of God; however, the Kingdom of God shall not be complete before the last one to be saved has been born again! Already but not yet, get it?

I stongly disagree, Rev chapter 19 clearly depicts the second coming and final judgement as seen many places in the bible

The Second Coming "Future" Unfulfilled

Revelation 19:14KJV
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jude 1:14KJV
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1 Thessalonians 3:13KJV
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

You can honestly say you don't believe this is being fulfilled as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the world? We, His disciples, faithful saints, called the church are His armies following Him, "But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army." We, His disciples, faithful saints are the ten thousands of His saints, in the Revelation we are "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands". We, His disciples, faithful saints shall return with Christ, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." "And we who still alive at His coming shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."

Rev 19 incorporates the second coming of Christ, but the chapter symbolically depicts all that comes to pass during this age of time (a thousand years) as the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Amil, but maybe not all Amils, need the entire planet to be engulfed in flames per the 2nd coming in order for there to be no habitable earth for Christ to return to with His kingdom He brings with Him. Therefore, in their mind, Premil is impossible based on that alone, since there is no habitable earth remaining.

Yes, Amils must burn up any remnant of hope that Israel will be regathered as a nation, though that is precisely the hope God gave to Israel. Amils gave up not just on a literal Millennium, but they also gave up on the hope of Israel.

It is no surprise that Premillennialism was possibly dominant in the early years of the Church, and gradually gave way to Amillennialism when it didn't look like the Jewish People would ever repent. But they should've read Rom 9-11 more carefully.

And surprise, there is an Israeli nation again in our day. It is shameful, in my view, that some Amils try to save face by arguing that the Jews presently in Israel aren't really Jews because they are so mixed with other races.

And that Amils insist He doesn't set foot on earth again until after the GWTJ and that the NJ has come down from heaven. Which then means He is returning, not to somewhere He previously was, but to some realm He previously wasn't. Which is already contradicting, that to return to somewhere, it means to return to somewhere one was previously, then left that location.

Great point!

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Here's an interesting thought I came up with awhile back. Assuming one can follow what I'm getting at here. Suppose one had a cellphone back in those days and recorded this event from start to finish. Then suppose they played the video in reverse. What would it then show Christ doing at the end of this video which is actually the beginning of it? It would show Him setting foot on earth after having descended from the sky above, of course.

Yes, the language is pretty plain. He's coming back in the same way he left. He's coming back to the place he actually left--not to a burned-out planet! ;)

But don't think I'm mocking the Amil view. I was raised in it, and hundreds of years of good Christians have believed in it. I'm not sure it made that much difference in their Christianity?

But today, I think there's some real value in believing in Premil. I'll stick with a literal view of Rom 9-11! I just can't spiritualize it away and look God in the face.

 

[rwb]

You previously stated Revelation Chapter 19 is fulfilled, now your back peddling in claims you see the final judgment and its future, your all over the map

A Big Head Shake, Big Smiles!

I can't help it if you aren't carefully reading my replies. One more time I believe chapter 19 of the Revelation of Jesus Christ depicts not only the beginning as well as the close of this age of time (a thousand years) when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound, and depicts all that has come to pass and continues to come to pass as the Kingdom of God in heaven is being spiritually built as the gospel of Christ is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world and multitudes of people throughout all the nations of the world are being born again!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The plagues referenced in 9:20 are directly attached to "God" who's calling the shots, the "Trumps" and "Vials" are parallel teachings of the exact same events

I agree. Hello? Of course all the judgments in Revelation come from God. It's His wrath that it's talking about. I never said otherwise. But, He uses different means to carry out His wrath. In the case of Revelation 9:20, it's by using the four angels of the river Euphrates. Are you saying that you think the two witnesses and the four angels are the same?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I can't help it if you aren't carefully reading my replies. One more time I believe chapter 19 of the Revelation of Jesus Christ depicts not only the beginning as well as the close of this age of time (a thousand years) when the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound, and depicts all that has come to pass and continues to come to pass as the Kingdom of God in heaven is being spiritually built as the gospel of Christ is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world and multitudes of people throughout all the nations of the world are being born again!

I'm not surprised that someone didn't get that! You are saying Rev 19 includes both the beginning and the end of the present age, which you suggest is a "thousand years?"

Well, I suppose that's typical Amillennialism--the past 2000 years is really a symbolic 1000 years? I don't really know what the Gospel proclamation to the world has to do with this? That's been going on for 2000 years, but I don't know how that relates to the Millennium in Rev 20?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So why are some of these Amils purposely misrepresenting Premil by claiming deception is rampant throughout Premil's proposed millennium? Especially when some of these Amils were Premil before they became Amil?

I'm not sure who said that, but you should acknowledge that it's at least possible for that to be the case. You do believe that sin and death occur during the thousand years, don't you? You believe that Zechariah 14:16-21 applies to the thousand years and that talks about punishment for anyone who disobeys the command to go to Jerusalem to worship and keep the feast of tabernacles. What evidence do you have to indicate that it's not at least possible for there to be a good amount of deception going on during the thousand years even from the Premil perspective?