Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

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Justified

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Nope. Sorry. Can't feed your relying into bad translations. From Examining the Textual Variant in John 1:18 | Ezra Institute
The older English rendering, “only-begotten Son,” is common and appears elsewhere in John.
I already provide source material showing you are factually wrong on the proper translation of John 1:18. You are the one who refuses to see for yourself.
This would be laughable if it wasn't so glaringly wrong. Do you even realize that you proof-texted that article, just like you do with Scripture? Did you actually read the entire thing thoroughly?

From the article:

"What is striking about John 1:18 is that the earliest texts we possess of John 1:18 all read the same: μονογενὴς θεὸς [God]. Yet, the vast majority of all texts say μονογενὴς υἱός [Son]. So here we have the earliest attested reading standing against most of the rest of the tradition."

"The earliest reading is “God,” and the majority reading from the fifth century onward is “Son.” So, which is best? People often say, “Earlier is not necessarily better,” which can sometimes be true. However, in general, the more primitive the reading, the heavier the weight of that witness. As we will see below, contextual testimony can also be brought to bear on this variant.

So, if we go with μονογενὴς θεὸς as the original reading, how do we translate this? We have already noted some of the attempts in modern English translations, and at this point, whether the article is present can likewise impact translation. We could opt for the formal equivalency translation, “the only begotten God,” and then attempt to explain this awkward phrase from the pulpit in preaching, and many would opt for this path. Likewise, we could render it “the unique God” and hope that the immediate context, “who is at the Father’s side” (literally, “in the Father’s bosom”), can help clarify what is meant by “unique.” The μονογενὴς θεὸς is the unique, personal means by which the Father has been revealed to mankind. If we wish to emphasize the meaning of monogenes, we can use “the only Son, who is God.” This would connect well with John 1:1, where the Logos (who is obviously in view in 1:18 as well) is said to be eternal (1:1a), in personal communion with the Father (1:1b), and, as to His nature, deity (1:1c).

The fact that 1:18 is the “bookend” to 1:1 should be remembered here and can assist in choosing which phrasing will most clearly communicate the original author’s intention for the reader to recognize the connection between 1:1 and 1:18. The “unique God” clearly represents the content of 1:1b and 1:1c, for only in the incarnation of the Logos can we have one who has eternally been in relationship with the Father and yet is, as to His essential nature, true deity. This is the “uniqueness” of the Incarnate one. Our language may struggle to express such sublime truths of revelation, but we must make the effort!"

"But as has been mentioned, in defence of μονογενὴς θεὸς, the perfection of the parallel it provides between 1:1 and 1:18 is very weighty. No one has seen God at any time, but the only Son, who is God or the unique God, has revealed that unseen God because He is at the Father’s side. Of course, the “side of” is too weak a translation. The phrase speaks of personal intimacy, which is why the μονογενὴς θεὸς can reveal the Father perfectly. But is this not the same reality seen in John 1:1b, where the Logos (who becomes incarnate in 1:14) is eternally “face to face” with the Father? Just as the Logos is, as to His nature and deity, in 1:1c and 1:18, He is God, even in revealing the unseen Father.

So, when we look at 1:18’s function in John, we can see that the text does not present a binary “either/or” situation.[10] It is not as if reading “Son” means the deity of Christ is absent, and reading “God” means it is present. It is present in both but with different expressions. However, the earliest reading of John’s manuscripts provides a stronger, more consistent parallel to what we find in John 1:1."


So, not only does the article absolutely not "provide source material showing you are factually wrong on the proper translation of John 1:18," James White prefers the reading of "God" in John 1:18. He repeatedly points out that John 1:1 points to the personhood and deity of the logos and that verse 18 simply reaffirms that, whether "God" is used or "Son" is.

As a suggestion, if you're going to post sources that show others are "factually wrong," make sure you actually thoroughly read your source. In this case, your source proves you wrong.

You make a blatant Appeal to Authority.
You have made the appeal to authority argument before, but it is evidence that you don't understand what that means. Please go look it up before using it again.

Going to the source material, In no sense of the word “son” is “God” a valid sense of the word.
You clearly haven't understood the issue, even though it was clearly and well presented in your own source. There are at least two different variant readings of John 1:18, the older one which uses "God," and the more common but newer one that uses "Son."

Why do you argue so much against things that you clearly do not even understand and show no attempt at trying to understand?
 
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Hiddenthings

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Two things. One, that has nothing to do with the point I was making about verses 10-12. Two, in typical fashion as an anti-Trinitarian, you're proof-texting, and in so doing, completely ignoring the verses that immediately follow. That means you're taking things out of context and using selective texts to try and prove your case.
You have already acknowledged the correct context of Hebrews so why change it?
No, it isn't. Not even close. It's about who the Son is, including his superiority to the angels and superiority to everyone else, including the priests. The whole point of which is to point out why he is the sufficient and perfect sacrifice, priest, and mediator of God's grace.
"Better" - yes!

Makes your point moot - God is never compared to the Angels!
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Yes - the New Creation is in Christ Jesus and is the outworking of God's Logos from the beginning. Without Christ there is no creation!
Notice that God "created the world" through the Son. It necessarily follows that the Son was in existence prior to creation. Only God preexisted creation.
Again, why do you keep reinforcing already stated truths!
And here, in support of verse 2, the Father says of the Son:

Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
The writer to the Hebrews quotes Psalm 102:25–27. Christians for centuries have argued that, since the Father is described as the creator of heaven and earth in this Psalm, and since Hebrews applies these words to Christ in order to demonstrate that he has a more excellent name than the angels, Christ must therefore be the creator of the universe and thus “Very God.”

Can you see the obvious issues with this approach?
The Father is saying that Ps. 102:25-27 is speaking about the Son, but it is a passage about Yahweh. There are not too many ways that can be understood.

Have a think about it!
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Of course they can't be separated, but you said they were parts, and they are not.

Sad to see that your befuddlement continues

Ever see all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever see all the scriptures about Jesus?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?


If the body can be killed and not the soul, then they can be separated.

If you knew God's Word you would know that every person's body will be resurrected, some to eternity in hell and some to eternity with the Lord.

Therefore when the body dies it is temporary, and in the end each person's spirit, soul, and body will abide as ONE


Of course the contents of 1 John 5:7 in the KJV are true

OK, so you are continuing in every lasting befuddlement on this issue.

Rather than simply accepting what God says in His Word like someone who has childlike faith who is following the Lord as a dear child - some people apparently enjoy being the devil's advocate arguing in satan's behalf continually trying to disprove God's Word



Please learn to follow a discussion.

Hey you're the one heading up the Department of Befuddlement agree.gif



The CC is the original church.

They are the original heretics who added to and took away from God's Word and in doing so established the first denomination to claim to be serving Jesus but in reality were servants of the devil.

The Body of Christ is and still is the original church and no true member of the Body of Christ following the heresy the catholics teach.

This is because true members of the Body of Christ are led by the Holy Spirit based on what the Lord says in His Word which is why true members of the Body of Christ don't pray to mary or follow any of the other foolishness the catholics teach


Stop lusting after Wes Huff?
Are you crrrrrazy?
Did you get a load of how handsome and muscular that guy is?

Sexual lust and desire outside of marriage (between one man and one woman) is a sin before the Lord.

This sort of thing causes people to not be allowed in to the Lord's Kingdom

Those that don't turn away from their sin end up in hell. A word to the wise should be sufficient


there are THREE PERSONS
IN ONE GOD.

So you claim you are 3 persons?

God created man in His Own Image so if you are going to say God is 3 different persons, then you must also claim you are 3 different persons as well.

Or claim God did not created man in His Own Image which is claiming God lied in Genesis 1:26

Genesis 1:26
God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

That's the Father, the Word, and the Spirit saying "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

The problem you folks are running in to is you are trying to explain God out of a carnal mind, out of carnal understanding rather than simply accepting what God said about Himself in His Word.

This is how one becomes a member of the Department of Befuddlement headed up by the forum member that goes by the name "Justified". This is all quite comical actually.


Scholars have written books about this.

Their books are meaningless

What God says in His Word is what matters as in the end all the books written by so called "Scholars" will end up in the trash pile of history.

Let God be true and every man a liar - Romans 3:4


And I'll be damned

OK, so you want to go to hell?

That's not too smart, but according to your faith it shall be done unto you!

I recommend REPENTING and ask God to forgive you for using such foul language.

The Holy Spirit does not lead anybody to talk like that, but the devil sure does!
 

GodsGrace

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Sad to see that your befuddlement continues

Ever see all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever see all the scriptures about Jesus?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?




If you knew God's Word you would know that every person's body will be resurrected, some to eternity in hell and some to eternity with the Lord.

Therefore when the body dies it is temporary, and in the end each person's spirit, soul, and body will abide as ONE




OK, so you are continuing in every lasting befuddlement on this issue.

Rather than simply accepting what God says in His Word like someone who has childlike faith who is following the Lord as a dear child - some people apparently enjoy being the devil's advocate arguing in satan's behalf continually trying to disprove God's Word





Hey you're the one heading up the Department of Befuddlement View attachment 79082





They are the original heretics who added to and took away from God's Word and in doing so established the first denomination to claim to be serving Jesus but in reality were servants of the devil.

The Body of Christ is and still is the original church and no true member of the Body of Christ following the heresy the catholics teach.

This is because true members of the Body of Christ are led by the Holy Spirit based on what the Lord says in His Word which is why true members of the Body of Christ don't pray to mary or follow any of the other foolishness the catholics teach




Sexual lust and desire outside of marriage (between one man and one woman) is a sin before the Lord.

This sort of thing causes people to not be allowed in to the Lord's Kingdom

Those that don't turn away from their sin end up in hell. A word to the wise should be sufficient




So you claim you are 3 persons?

God created man in His Own Image so if you are going to say God is 3 different persons, then you must also claim you are 3 different persons as well.

Or claim God did not created man in His Own Image which is claiming God lied in Genesis 1:26

Genesis 1:26
God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

That's the Father, the Word, and the Spirit saying "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

The problem you folks are running in to is you are trying to explain God out of a carnal mind, out of carnal understanding rather than simply accepting what God said about Himself in His Word.

This is how one becomes a member of the Department of Befuddlement headed up by the forum member that goes by the name "Justified". This is all quite comical actually.




Their books are meaningless

What God says in His Word is what matters as in the end all the books written by so called "Scholars" will end up in the trash pile of history.

Let God be true and every man a liar - Romans 3:4




OK, so you want to go to hell?

That's not too smart, but according to your faith it shall be done unto you!

I recommend REPENTING and ask God to forgive you for using such foul language.

The Holy Spirit does not lead anybody to talk like that, but the devil sure does!
I stand before a perfect human bean and have nothing futher to say.

Do you know what a human bean is?
Of course not - you're just too serious and wouldn't know something like that.
You're a perfect human bean.
 

Justified

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“No one has ever yet seen God.”...seems a pretty clear statement. How many people saw Jesus?
Taken out of context, yes, it can seem that way. Yet even Jesus himself said:

Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Clearly then, "No one has ever seen God" refers to something specific, which would likely mean that no one has ever seen God as he truly exists in his full glory in heaven.

Can you tell me how “God” can be “begotten”? “Monogenes” in Greek means an only child, and this “only begotten god” is “in the bosom of the Father”...which in Jewish culture meant a position of favour with God.
Monogenes, means "unique" or "one and only." It speaks of the nature of the relationship between a parent and child.

Can God be in a position of favor with himself?
That is an argument against Modalism/Oneness, not Trinitarianism. If you want to argue against the Trinity, then argue against what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches.

If you read that in Greek...it doesn’t say what is translated into English.
In Greek phrasing it actually says...
awaiting τὴν the μακαρίαν happy ἐλπίδα hope καὶ and ἐπιφάνειαν manifestation τῆς of the δόξης glory τοῦ of the μεγάλου great θεοῦ God καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior ἡμῶν of us Χριστοῦ of Christ Ἰησοῦ, Jesus”.

This is not identifying Jesus as God. Both God and his Son are glorious beings.....but Jesus‘ glory is from his Father. The Father is the one who gave glory to all his spirit sons....
"Spirit sons"? Are you Mormon? Let's look at some other similar passages:

2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[the] Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
tou kuriou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

[the] Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
tou kuriou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou

2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

[the] Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
tou kuriou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou

Note the grammar is the exact same in each and that in each instance it is speaking of one person.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

the God and Father
ho theos kai patēr

2Pe 3:2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,

the Lord and Savior
tou kuriou kai sōtēros

Clearly these are also speaking of one person.

Now this:

2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

[the] God and Savior Jesus Christ
tou theou hēmōn kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou

While the precise meaning is debated, note that the grammar is exactly the same as the previous verses. This strongly suggests it is speaking of one person, not two. There is one article ("the") for "God and Savior," not two articles ("the God and the Savior"). It is not reasonable to understand the previous verses as speaking of one person, but this verse as speaking of two. There are no grammatical grounds for doing so.

And we see the same in Titus:

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

great [the] God and Savior Jesus Christ
tou megalou theou kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou

but his “firstborn” is unique as “the firstborn of ALL creation”. (Col 1:15)
But, in context:

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Whatever we understand "firstborn of all creation" to mean, it simply cannot mean that the Son was created. If the Son was created, then verses 16 and 17 are false. If just one thing, namely the Son, was created, then it is false that "by him all things were created," that "all things were created through him and for him."

So, once we know that, we can find other uses of "firstborn" in Scripture and come to a proper meaning that doesn't contradict verses 16 and 17.
 
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Justified

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Sad to see that your befuddlement continues

Ever see all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever see all the scriptures about Jesus?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?




If you knew God's Word you would know that every person's body will be resurrected, some to eternity in hell and some to eternity with the Lord.

Therefore when the body dies it is temporary, and in the end each person's spirit, soul, and body will abide as ONE




OK, so you are continuing in every lasting befuddlement on this issue.

Rather than simply accepting what God says in His Word like someone who has childlike faith who is following the Lord as a dear child - some people apparently enjoy being the devil's advocate arguing in satan's behalf continually trying to disprove God's Word





Hey you're the one heading up the Department of Befuddlement View attachment 79082
It is clear that you're simply not following the discussion nor are trying to understand what I am saying. I see no point in continuing discussion with you.
 

Justified

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You have already acknowledged the correct context of Hebrews so why change it?
I didn't.

"Better" - yes!

Makes your point moot - God is never compared to the Angels!
What?

Yes - the New Creation is in Christ Jesus and is the outworking of God's Logos from the beginning. Without Christ there is no creation!
What do you mean by "New Creation" and where is that mentioned in Heb. 1:2?

Again, why do you keep reinforcing already stated truths!
I don't know to what specifically you are referring. Please stop being so vague in your answers. This is a serious discussion about one of the most serious topics; clarity and precision are needed.

The writer to the Hebrews quotes Psalm 102:25–27. Christians for centuries have argued that, since the Father is described as the creator of heaven and earth in this Psalm, and since Hebrews applies these words to Christ in order to demonstrate that he has a more excellent name than the angels, Christ must therefore be the creator of the universe and thus “Very God.”

Can you see the obvious issues with this approach?
There aren't any. That is precisely the meaning; there can be no other.

Have a think about it!
I did. The only legitimate meaning is that the Son, as the agent of creation, is also Yahweh. That is what was already stated in verse 2, and what is stated in John 1:1-3, 10, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Col. 1:16-17. It's the consistent message throughout the NT.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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I stand before a perfect human bean and have nothing futher to say.

Do you know what a human bean is?
Of course not - you're just too serious and wouldn't know something like that.
You're a perfect human bean.

You should start a thread about comedy if you seek to be a funny guy.
 

Hiddenthings

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I didn't.
Yes you did
You don't know how Hebrews uses the word "better?"
What do you mean by "New Creation" and where is that mentioned in Heb. 1:2?

God "appointed (Christ) the heir of all things Heb 1:2.

There is nothing in this passage to support the claim that the Son was an “eternal person” within a Godhead. The Son is described as “appointed heir” (verse 2), showing that his position of power and authority is delegated, not innate.

Likewise, it is by inheritance (verse 4) that he has obtained a more excellent name, not by virtue of being a supposed co-equal person within a triune deity.

The phrase “by whom [through whom, RSV] he made the worlds” does not refer to the physical universe. The Greek word translated “worlds” is not kosmos but aiōn, meaning age, dispensation, or indefinite period of time. The passage is therefore speaking of the ages, not planets or galaxies.

Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone of all ages, antediluvian, patriarchal, Mosaic, Gentile, and Millennial. The Seed was promised to Eve (Genesis 3:15), Abraham rejoiced to see Christ’s day by faith (John 8:56; cf. Galatians 3:8), and the sacrifices under the Law of Moses derived their meaning only because they pointed forward to Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice (Hebrews 10:4, 10). The Law served as a custodian to bring people to Christ (Galatians 3:24). In this sense, the ages were constituted through Christ, since in Him they find their purpose and ultimate fulfillment.

Although Christ was the chief cornerstone in God’s purpose (1 Peter 2:6), foreordained before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20), He was not formed or manifested until “these last times.” He had no personal existence prior to being born of the virgin Mary (Luke 1:31–35).

Thus, “he made the worlds” refers to the new creation, not the original creation. This is clarified in Hebrews 2:5:

“It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.”

The writer is explicitly addressing the world to come. Jesus is the creator of this coming order. The redeemed are described as a new creation, with Christ as their creator. It is Christ who will bring about the new heavens and new earth, wherein righteousness dwells.

There aren't any. That is precisely the meaning; there can be no other.

And here is the problem!

I did. The only legitimate meaning is that the Son, as the agent of creation, is also Yahweh. That is what was already stated in verse 2, and what is stated in John 1:1-3, 10, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Col. 1:16-17. It's the consistent message throughout the NT.
New Creation is in view as clearly stated above - Hebrews 2:5.

You need to follow the authors arguments.
 

Hiddenthings

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@Justified if you cannot understand the context and applied meaning of Hebrews 1&2 then there is little point continuing as your mind is made up and no amount of evidence will turn it.
 

Hiddenthings

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I mean, you cannot even acknowledge terms like "appointed" and "obtained" as though they could ever apply to an Almighty God!

If this is your God, then He is neither omnipotent, omnipresent, nor omniscient.

You @Justified have so much to learn!
 

Hiddenthings

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1769986539163.png

Within this post lies the truth you asked for, and it is as clear as it can be regarding the writer’s intent: to distinguish Jesus from the angels and to show his exalted position, which his Father granted him by inheritance.

God does not inherit anything.
God is not exalted in nature.
God cannot die, be raised, or be given immortality.
God obtains nothing.
God is never “appointed.”

It can be overwhelming for someone committed to Trinitarian dogma to confront the weight of evidence that challenges their beliefs.

I don't expect you will ever be able to reconcile Hebrews with your chosen beliefs.
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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@Justified if you cannot understand the context and applied meaning of Hebrews 1&2 then there is little point continuing as your mind is made up and no amount of evidence will turn it.

Would you expect anything different from the head guy over at the Department of Befuddlement? laughing.gif
 

Hiddenthings

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Would you expect anything different from the head guy over at the Department of Befuddlement? View attachment 79093
I don't know :IDK:
When properly expounded, the Word can raise questions even in the minds of the most diligent believers.
When someone replies to a post without engaging its content, it usually indicates they are at a loss for words and that the points have struck home - though met with resistance. They might take some time to reconsider, recognizing that there is another way to interpret that section, especially in light of Hebrews 2:5, which is undeniable.

How do you exalt Christ while maintaining an omnipotent God?

The answer is you can’t. Despite the many doctrines inventing a duality of natures or an incarnation, the language never portrays Jesus as omnipotent.

They have a self-made paradox which the writer of Hebrews only makes worse.
 
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Lambano

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No sir.
Stating who is saved is a bit beyond my pay grade.
I can think of several denominations who take the position that only Christians are saved. If you put it to a poll, I suspect a majority would take that position. Try it and see. (Amigo, feel free to chime in here.)

I have taken the position that being a Christian is something more than believing certain doctrines ABOUT Christ. And deciding who belongs to Christ is beyond your pay grade and mine.
 
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MonoBiblical

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As I've often stated...
history did continue after the book of Acts.

This is from Gemini
But you could look it up on your own because history is history:


Yes, James—specifically James the Just, known as the brother of Jesus—is widely regarded in Christian tradition as the first Bishop of Jerusalem. He served as a pivotal leader in the early church, presiding over the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), and was recognized for his ascetic lifestyle and righteousness before his martyrdom around 62–63 AD.
Key details regarding James as the Bishop of Jerusalem:

  • Leadership Role: While the New Testament does not explicitly use the title "bishop" for him, he is described as a, if not the, primary leader of the Jerusalem church.
  • Identity: He is often called "James the Just" or "James the Brother of the Lord". Early church traditions, such as those recorded by Eusebius, hold that Peter, James, and John did not fight for leadership but instead appointed James the Just as the first bishop.
  • Significance: He played a critical role in early Christianity, particularly in bridging the gap between Jewish and Gentile converts.
  • Martyrdom: According to tradition, he was martyred by being thrown from the pinnacle of the Temple in Jerusalem.
I suspect it was the beloved apostle John who was the actual overseer.
 

Grailhunter

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No sir.
Stating who is saved is a bit beyond my pay grade.

This is not difficult:

Christianity MUST have tenets that MUST be adhered to for Christianity to have any meaning.

If a person posts on here that Jesus is NOT God...how could he possibly be of the Christian religion,
how could he possibly be Christian if he does NOT believe in the core Christian tenet - being that Jesus is God.

He could be saved but belong to a different group that does not believe in the Trinity.
But he could not state that he is Christian.

Christianity was defined by the Apostles and not by anyone living today.
The tenets are set and MUST be believed.

You said no one can tell you what a Christian is in another post...
well, the APOSTLES told you what a Christian is.

Could you please repeat to me what I just said?
It would be really appreciated.

Probably the best person to decide if Yeshua is a God or Jesus is god....is Yeshua. And the phrase Jesus is God is not in the scriptures either......Once again defining Christianity and Christian on Catholic doctrine. Much to the Jehovah's Witnesses delight even Yeshua did not say He was a God or God. AND ONCE AGAIN THERE IS NO ONE NAMED GOD. GOD IS NOT A PROPER NAME. We can say that Trump is president because president is not a name it is a position
 

Lambano

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So spit it out Lambano....
Do YOU believe only Christians are saved?
Certainly the Baptist Church I attended as an adolescent believed that. I listened to John MacArthur's Grace to You; he believed that. I listened to a lot of Evangelical teachers on the radio, I bought a lot of theology books, and I daresay most of Evangelicalism believes only Christians are saved.

When I first came here 5 years ago, I expressed the opinion that the Sheep and Goats parable (prophecy) MAY be saying that the Son of Man will sovereignly decide to save non-believers who treated those whom He considers "the least of my brethren" with kindness and compassion. Oh my. Did I get blasted. Salvation by works. Semi-Pelagian heresy. Can't remember if you-know-who brought up ecumenicalism. I've long been considered a heretic.
 
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Hillsage

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Probably the best person to decide if Yeshua is a God or Jesus is god....is Yeshua.
What's your definition of "person"?
And the phrase Jesus is God is not in the scriptures either......

JOH 20:28 Thomas answered him (Jesus), "My Lord and my God!"

Am I misunderstanding your statement above?

Once again defining Christianity and Christian on Catholic doctrine. Much to the Jehovah's Witnesses delight even Yeshua did not say He was a God or God. AND ONCE AGAIN THERE IS NO ONE NAMED GOD. GOD IS NOT A PROPER NAME.

Agreed.
MAT 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Didn't make sense to me for years, because "name" wasn't pluralized????
Also agree that Father, Son, Holy Spirit are not names. Struggled with that too, for years. Finally came to the understanding that those are simply 'titles'. Been asking 'Brethren' for years what their Father's name was. Not one has ever said; "Father".
We can say that Trump is president because president is not a name it is a position
Probably more nit picking, but; I believe 'president' is also a 'title'. And Presidency is a 'position'.
 
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