Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

I did not expect that a Jehovah Witness, who actually has no business to be active in Christians only section of this forums, would accept that Jesus is God. You will rather try to delete the verses from the Bible, as your New World translation does and based upon similarly bad and ignorant/uneducated arguments you are presenting.

But the orthodox Christianity and the standard Bible teaches that Jesus is God. Case closed.

Maybe you're right.
Maybe non-Christians should not be allowed in certain sub-forums.
Maybe it would be a good method of showing how Christian actually means something.

 

[GodsGrace]

False. Just because there is more than one type of heavenly being (Elohim) does not mean the person of God is plural.

One way to know this is the literal 1,000’s of time God refers to himself in the 2st person singular. See 1C. You shall have no gods before me.

Brains bigger than yours attest to the fact that God is shown to be a plurality in the OT.

WHY do you fight it?

Because you prefer to adhere to your heretical belief system instead of the Christian belief system.

And find out what heretical means before you get all....
bent out of shape.

Words have meanings.
We should learn them.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you've read early church HIStory? You would've seen that in the world PRE Contantine?
The "Church" was in the "war for its existence" AGAINST the Pagans as well as non-believing Jews and/or Israel.
So?
No! Constintine did NOT invent that which was already present amongst the pagans!
He DID however, FORCIBLY MAKE both sides (and I HATE to say it. but I have to, because it IS HIStory)

COMPROMISE!! Under penalties of ultimate proportions!

Christmas verses santa claus? (can you say traditions of man?)
(even though there are rumors about saying that Dec.25th is more the date of Christ's conception, which is STILL a good reason to celebrate)

IF
IF
Why are you so condescending?

Are YOU the only person that knows some church history?
My goodness but how we elevate when Jesus taught CHRISTIANS to be humble in nature.

Tell us....
Was there a church BEFORE CONSTANTINE?
That would be : Was there a church for 300 years before Constantine decided to create the Christian religion?

Or whatever silly statement you made.

And,,,WHICH was that church?
Did it have a name?
You know history,,,what name was it given in 107AD?

The questions refer to another post of yours that I'm unable to find right now.

I will not address the silly notion of easter bunnies and halloween candy.

 

[HealthyShape]

False Alternative. This is one interpretation among others equally valid. Why eliminate these other interpretations, other than they don't align with the trinity narrative?

It is not called false alternative. I think you are using random claims and statements, even sources that do not support your claims...or you are just trolling.

 

[HealthyShape]

All the best heresies have Biblical support.

Everybody here can cite scripture. Good grief, if you were part of the earlier discussion of John 1:18, we can't even agree which manuscripts of John are legitimate. We can't even agree on what Bible to use, much less what it actually says, and still less what it actually means.

Come on. We know which manuscript are "legitimate" - the ones with "theos", check the standard Greek critical editions - UBS, Nestlé Aland.

Do not try to relativize everything, it does not work. Many things we actually know.

 

[HealthyShape]

And how do you know they got it right?

Because of Bible, because of the apostolic teachings and because of the ecumenical creeds. This was not so hard, was it?

The churches and Christians that keep this line of consensus are orthodox. Heretics have similar credibility to a youtuber claiming the real experts all over the world are wrong, only he knows the truth.

The arguments of heretics here are not even convincing - just various kinds of Scripture manipulation, nothing more. This is not a serious competition to orthodoxy, at all. It is basically just spamming the forums with nonsense.

 

[Wrangler]

Did I mention elohims?

Learn the difference.

The word does not end in "s." Elohim means heavenly beings, which is plural but does not mean God is a plural person.

 

[Taken]

Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

Calling oneself a Christian…is simply an INDICATOR…of WHAT “Christian “ Means.

CHRISTIAN…BROADLY means…
“IAN”… <—-> follower
of <—-> “CHRIST”.

It does NOT solidify that INDIVIDUALS …
Beliefs…( mindfully OR spiritually ).

A follower… of another IS Simply “OPEN”, “PARTICIPATING” in hearing (reading), WHAT, they are “Following”…IS Saying, Revealing.

The “Follower”…
Can believe what they Hear…
Can ponder, wonder, mull what they Hear…
Can doubt what they Hear…
Can deny what they Hear…
Can CONTINUE following…
Can STOP following…

Parallel… to a man “Following”… another Person…”believe, ponder, wonder, mull over, doubt, deny, can continue following, can stop following.

TRINITY - EXCLUSIVELY means…
“TRI”…THREE
Three “UNITED”…
Is EQUAL TO “ONE”…“Thing”, “Object” or “Being”.
Regarding… the Creator and Maker…
The ONE United IS The Creator and Maker…
…famously identified…
Father, Son, Holy Spirit
Yahweh, Jesus, Christ
Lord God Almighty
(Plethora of Titles, Descriptions)
Still ONE Being.

A human man is a created Body.
A PERSON is a TRIUNE human.
TRI - THREE
THREE UNITED - (Living body, Living soul, Living spirit. )
Is EQUAL TO “ONE”… “Thing”, “Object” or “Being”.
… Identity…
Multiple (plethora of Names, Titles, Descriptions).
Still ONE Being.

The MYSTERIOUS Abilities, Works of God, according to His Will and Pleasure.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

It is not called false alternative. I think you are using random claims and statements, even sources that do not support your claims...or you are just trolling.

It is called False Alternative. You invoke so many logical fallacies, it is hard to keep up! Lately, you've been relying on Appeal to Authority.

This instead of addressing my 4 points one at a time or answering the demonstrable question of how you suppose verse 18 of John 1 contradicts itself when it reiterates to start that no one has seen God but many have seen Jesus and believe God refers to one who is seen.

 

[Wrangler]

Brains bigger than yours attest to the fact that God is shown to be a plurality in the OT.

All you got is personal attack, Appeal to Authority (right @HealthyShape?). In other words, one logical fallacy after another.

WHY do you fight it?

Because what you claim is not actually taught in Scripture. Just ignore the 1,000's of times God uses singular pronoun to "support" your doctrine.

 

[amigo de christo]

IF
IF
Why are you so condescending?

Are YOU the only person that knows some church history?
My goodness but how we elevate when Jesus taught CHRISTIANS to be humble in nature.

Tell us....
Was there a church BEFORE CONSTANTINE?
That would be : Was there a church for 300 years before Constantine decided to create the Christian religion?

Or whatever silly statement you made.

And,,,WHICH was that church?
Did it have a name?
You know history,,,what name was it given in 107AD?

The questions refer to another post of yours that I'm unable to find right now.

I will not address the silly notion of easter bunnies and halloween candy.

To answer the question you asked , was there a church BEFORE constantine ...........
OH YES . And you can bet the descendants of that one true church
Had NAUGHT to do with the rebellion of that merger of church and state .
Constantine did as many politicains still to today . USED christanity for his own agendas , to recreate
a state mergerd religion that is not in Resistance to Him but was in compliance to him .
this is my best guess as to when it all went down on a massive scale . And beleive me
there were true sheep that did not conform to what they saw as a betrayal to the one t rue church of Christ .
THEY too were persecuted in e ven those days . LESSON learned
N EvER EVER TIE CHURCH INTO POLITICS . just look at what became of it .
Those poltics in power used the church and the church used them
TO EVEN PUT TO DEATH those who did not agree to them . SOON we will see this o n a massve global scale .
UNDER THE MODIFIED one religion claimed by all religoins and much of christendom
run and supported by A ONE WORLD GOVT . and beleive me IT WILL BE USED to put to death
ONCE again ALL who did not conform to its version of GOD , its version of love , its agenda for world peace .

 

[Wrangler]

CHRISTIAN…BROADLY means…
“IAN”… <—-> follower
of <—-> “CHRIST”.

@GodsGrace refuses to answer what is someone called who follows Christ. Sad, isn't?

 

[NayborBear]

This is why many people in mainstream Trinitarian churches avoid creedal language: their faith is lived as a relationship, not as abstract theology. In fact, many believers wouldn’t even recognize the Trinity the way it’s discussed here.

In which? When I do attend a church? (and I do, very infrequently anymore) I don't know "how" to communicate these things!
It really "feels" to me they have and are continuing to, put "God in a box!"
Which in essence sez: "You can go this far, and no further!"
Which really frustrates me to where after a while?
In order to maintain my sanity? (such as it is....lol)
I have to stop attending.

The reason I've heard some pastors say is due to believers new to the faith. So, they MUST "preach/teach" at very or common salvational" levels! Which for the larger part is around a 5th or 6th grade level, theologically speaking. Which is great for them (I guess). Bad for everyone else wanting more meat!
Because? When a pastor gets wind from, or notices an individual that shows signs of wanting more meat? He, or members of leadership start "shepherding/grooming" said individual/s in usually attending a college of higher Biblical Indoctrination (did I say that out loud?)

But yet? In places such as this, it rather behooves some of us to keep sending/sounding out the message that in the event that they "feel/believe/think" there is much more to the Word of God then what they are currently being "fed" at church?

In some cases? There's Holy Reasons for that!

 

[Wrangler]

The Angel of the Lord IS YAHWEH.

No verse teaches this.

There must be a rationalization for making this claim, such as expressed forgiveness, issued Judgment. Why would the Creator pose as one of his Created?

 

[NayborBear]

I think that you do not need to learn anything philosophical regarding "Jesus is God, Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is one God". Almost nobody here discusses concepts like ousia or hypostasis, most heretics just limit their attacks to trying to rewrite the Bible that "God" does not mean God. Nothing truly philosophical about that.

I have held my peace with your commenting/s. Until this last one. To which I shall "attempt" in showing you the "discernment/s" that are lacking in today's (and yesterdays churches for that matter)
2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Now? Even though Paul is speaking concerning "gifts?"
This SAME explanation holds true concerning the Spirit of God! AND? More specifically, the GOVERNMENT of the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Light!

Having said that, I can't expect you to grasp all that without having a grasp of things eternal that puts such elementary theological matters in the more proper perspective that it IS!

 

[NayborBear]

‘There are no “J’s” in Hebrew.

The word “Jehovah” came about in the 13th Century.

Moses nor any of the prophets, nor Jesus, nor any of the Apostles would have used “Jehovah”.

The word in Hebrew is YHWH.


Yah is the shortened form. H3050

Which is the WHY, when I'm not copying/pasting? (Bullinger's Bible appendix #4) Speaking of or about the Covenant God of Israel?
I phonetically pronounce His name as:
'Yah-uh-'Vay

 

[NayborBear]

IF
IF
Why are you so condescending?

Are YOU the only person that knows some church history?
My goodness but how we elevate when Jesus taught CHRISTIANS to be humble in nature.

Tell us....
Was there a church BEFORE CONSTANTINE?
That would be : Was there a church for 300 years before Constantine decided to create the Christian religion?

Or whatever silly statement you made.

And,,,WHICH was that church?
Did it have a name?
You know history,,,what name was it given in 107AD?

The questions refer to another post of yours that I'm unable to find right now.

I will not address the silly notion of easter bunnies and halloween candy.

I'm not! Appears you are however!
No!
Yes!
Yes! Constintine didn't create Christian religion. However, he did (how can I say) "REFORM" IT!
Ones' that met "in secret!"
Christ Mens!
The catholic or universal church! And that's when the "war" started!
I see at this point? I have exceeded the limits of your medication!
Nehemiah 9:17
And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.

 

[HealthyShape]

All you got is personal attack, Appeal to Authority (right @HealthyShape?). In other words, one logical fallacy after another.

You do not know how logical fallacies work, obviously. Even quoting the Bible in a theological discussion is appeal to authority, but it is not a logical fallacy, of course.

In the same way, Jesus, apostles, the early church or ecumenical creeds are authorities. Or experts on Greek manuscripts are relevant authority regarding J 1:18. Without authorities, we could all just post our random fantasies without any direction or substance - i.e. lie.

Christianity is not anarchy. Even local churches have their local authorities - elders, bishops... since the apostolic times.

 

[HealthyShape]

It is called False Alternative. You invoke so many logical fallacies, it is hard to keep up! Lately, you've been relying on Appeal to Authority.

This instead of addressing my 4 points one at a time or answering the demonstrable question of how you suppose verse 18 of John 1 contradicts itself when it reiterates to start that no one has seen God but many have seen Jesus and believe God refers to one who is seen.

When John said no one has seen God, He meant the Father as He is. This is so simple answer that I do not know what you are demanding to read from me about that. Only the begotten Logos who is in the bosom of the Father truly saw and know Him and can make the Father known.

You are just looking for problems where there are none. God refers the most frequently to the Father in the New Testament. But not always.

 

[HealthyShape]

Having said that, I can't expect you to grasp all that without having a grasp of things eternal that puts such elementary theological matters in the more proper perspective that it IS!

I see that you have some experience with people not grasping what you are trying to say. Maybe try to communicate in a more clear way? You would be surprised how easily can things be said, if you try to think and read what you wrote before clicking on "post".