Could Ezekiel 37, 38 and 39 all be post millennial?

[shepherdsword]

What if Chapter 37 is about the second resurrection and the Gog/Magog war in Revelation 20 is the same as 38 and 39?

 

[Davidpt]

If anything in Ezekiel 38-39 is post mil, it proves Amil in that case, not Premil. I can provide some reasons why. But later not at this moment.

 

[shepherdsword]

If anything in Ezekiel 38-39 is post mil, it proves Amil in that case, not Premil.

So you see two Gog/Magog wars?

I can provide some reasons why. But later not at this moment.

okey dokey

 

[TribulationSigns]

What if Chapter 37 is about the second resurrection

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Here is the fulfillment of the prophecy - one fold (Jew and Gentile together) with one shepherd over them, "David their king", the Lord Jesus Christ. The time period in view is the NT church age, after the crucifixion of Christ, which made possible the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, bringing peace, cleansing from sin and iniquity, and restoration to the Israel of God, all those chosen from the foundation of the world (Jew and Gentile alike).

This is why Zechariah 14:8 refers to the former sea and the hinder sea. It is a reference to the Jews and Gentiles who were both cleansed and brought to life by the Holy Spirit, forming one, unified Israel of God - the body of Christ. This is the restoration of Israel. It has absolutely nothing to do with that nation in the Middle East which has been in continuous rebellion against God for the last 2000 years. It has everything to do with the fulfilling of God's promise to Abraham that all nations of the earth would be blessed throuth his seed (Jesus Christ) - the promise of the Holy Spirit.

and the Gog/Magog war in Revelation 20 is the same as 38 and 39?

Yes.

The Gog and Magog, according to God's Word, are the nations (unsaved Gentiles) from the four corners of the earth. Nations who have been deceived of a loosed Satan, that they would come up against the assembly (camps) of the saints. The question is why? Why was Satan bound? Scripture says it was so the nations would not be deceived for thousand symbolic years (ie. Church age - days of salvation). Why was he loosed from that binding after the thousand symbolic years? Scripture says it could only be after all the 144,000 of all Israel were sealed, meaning this thousand years is the time of Israel's sealing (salvation). After the testimony of the two witnesses is finished, meaning all are sealed whom God chooses to seal, only then can the witnesses be killed (silenced). It all fits together like a giant spiritual picture puzzle with ever puzzle piece in place. So again, why is Satan loosed? Because all Israel has been sealed and the testimony of the witnessed finished. Then is the principle fulfilled that the time of the judgment must begin at the unfaithful house of God (1stPe 4:17). Then can the nations whom God declared that for the 1000 years could not be deceived, God NOW says are deceived when Satan is loosed. And they are spiritually this people that are spiritually, Gog and Magog. Not big bad red Russians as most people think. Satan's messengers (not angels), false prophets and christs, who are loosed to bring apostasy in the abomination that will leave the assembly they inhabit, desolate.

When the thousand-year spiritual millennial reign of Christ's people on earth is over, God unchains Satan to reveal the mystery (secret) of this covert iniquity among God's people. Why? To Damn the rebellious nations whom He had been restraining from being deceived (Revelation 20:3) these 1000 years. ...but for all that, they still refuse to receive the Spirit of His truth in love.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8-12

• "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
• Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
• And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
• That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousnes."

...BECAUSE they "ARE" spiritually Gog and Magog, the nations who are then deceived to bring war against God's house. And the end is with desolations.

Revelation 2:29

• "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

 

[Zao is life]

What if Chapter 37 is about the second resurrection and the Gog/Magog war in Revelation 20 is the same as 38 and 39?

We need to familiarize ourselves with the Markan Sandwich technique used by those who penned the scriptures.

"A Markan Sandwich is a literary technique used where a narrative is interrupted by another narrative, creating a structure that resembles a sandwich: The technique involves starting with a narrative (the first piece of bread), inserting a second narrative (the meat), and then closing with the first narrative (the second piece of bread).

This method allows the author to juxtapose two narratives, and the technique is not just a literary device but also serves to enrich the understanding of the narratives by layering different stories and teachings, allowing readers to see new connections and meanings."

Examples:

1. Hosea 1.
2. Ezekiel chs 36-39.

Here's an example out of Hosea which is pertinent to Ezekiel chs. 36 & 37, because Hosea 1:11a is talking about the same thing Ezekiel 37:16-28 talks about.

"Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head." Hosea 1:11a

Hosea 1:4-9 is a prophecy regarding (what was then still) the coming judgment of the house of Israel, i.e the Northern kingdom (not "the judgment of the house of Judah", i.e not the Southern kingdom) - in the Valley of Jezreel, which was fulfilled circa 722 B.C when the children of Israel (Northern tribes - not the Jews) were scattered.

Hosea 1:11b (closing the prophecy introduced in Hosea 1:4-9).

"and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

Sandwiched in-between:

Hosea 1:10-11a: "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head."

Hosea 1:10-11a is a prophecy which, though related to Hosea 1:4-9, is not applicable to the same time-frame or even to the same millennium as the rest of the prophecy.

The same technique was used by Ezekiel:

Bottom piece of bread:
Ezekiel 36:24-26: "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Top piece of bread:
Ezekiel 39: 23-29 (closing what Ezekiel 36:24-26 began talking about).

Ezekiel 39
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

The sandwich in-between:

Ezekiel 37: Dry bones caused to live again.
Ezekiel 37: The house of Israel and the house of Judah reunited (joined into one nation again).

Ezekiel 38:1 through 39:22: Gog of Magog comes against Israel, and is judged.

From Ezekiel 40:1-2 onward we have Ezekiel describing VISIONS he saw of a new city, new temple, the river of life, etc.

We have the same chronology in Revelation chs. 20-22, except that there is no Markan Sandwich employed in those chapters.

 

[Davidpt]

So you see two Gog/Magog wars?

okey dokey

Forget what I said earlier about it proving Amil in that case. I have a better argument. The following kills 2 birds with one stone. It proves that nothing in Ezekiel 38-39 can be meaning during satan's little season. Plus it clearly debunks Amil since they have no place to fit the following verse if they are correct that satan's little season precedes the 2nd coming.


Ezekiel 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:


If Ezekiel 38-39 is post mill, meaning during satan's little season, what is it that follows satan's little season? Is it not the GWTJ? Therefore, nothing in Ezekiel 38-39 can be meaning during satan's little season since verse 9 is clearly meaning the aftermath of the destruction of Gog and his multitude. Something to keep in mind though, is this--and leave but the sixth part of thee(Ezekiel 39:2)--which might explain Gog and Magog both before the millennium and after the millennium.

If Ezekiel 39:9 is meaning the aftermath of satan's little season, neither view, Premil nor Amil have anywhere to place this 7 years of weapon burning. Let's consider Amil first. The thousand years and satan's little season precede the 2nd coming. Except, per this scenario, Ezekiel 39:9 would have to be the aftermath of satan's little season. And it plainly involves 7 years. Regardless what it might look like to burn weapons is not the point. The 7 years are the point, and that Amil has zero place for these 7 years to fit post the 2nd coming.

Premil has the same problem since it would still be meaning the aftermath of satan's little season. Except this 7 years couldn't possibly fit after satan's little season, but prior to the GWTJ, no matter how you look at it. Is there a solution then? Yes. Ezekiel 39:9 fits at the beginning of the millennium. Which then leads to the fulfilling of Isaiah 2:4---and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more

 

[Douggg]

The Ezekiel 38-39 attack on Israel will take place 7 years before Jesus's return.

The 7 years are in Ezekiel 39:9. Then 7 years later in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast on dead bodies corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

Gog-Magog of Revelation 20:8-9 is that the same nations making up the Ezekiel 38-39 attack on Israel a 1000 years earlier, will try again after the 1000 year millennium is over.

Ezekiel 38 - Gog-Magog attack on Israel
Ezekiel 39 :9- then the 7 years.
Revelation 19 -then Jesus's return
Revelation 20 - then the 1000 year millennium
Revelation 20:8-9 - then Gog-Magog's second attempt, devoured by fire coming down from God out of heaven.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The Ezekiel 38-39 attack on Israel will take place 7 years before Jesus's return.

The 7 years are in Ezekiel 39:9. Then 7 years later in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast on dead bodies corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

Gog-Magog of Revelation 20:8-9 is that the same nations making up the Ezekiel 38-39 attack on Israel a 1000 years earlier, will try again after the 1000 year millennium is over.

Ezekiel 38 - Gog-Magog attack on Israel
Ezekiel 39 :9- then the 7 years.
Revelation 19 -then Jesus's return
Revelation 20 - then the 1000 year millennium
Revelation 20:8-9 - then Gog-Magog's second attempt, devoured by fire coming down from God out of heaven.

Really close on this Douggg!

Very few Christians include Israel or show an understanding the reference to Gog-Magog applies to pre and post-mill

Re Ezek 39:9 Seven is the number of the covenant and appears here to point to the covenant that ensures a millennium of peace. In preparation for this, seven years will be devoted to repairing the ravages of war. During this period, Christ will likely consolidate his power in Israel and issue an ultimatum to the nations: to submit voluntarily to his rule or face the consequences.

It's only the timing of the Lords return which we could discuss.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Douggg. That short section in Ezekiel 39:8–10 sits within the context of the Day of Yahweh, which will ultimately result in Him being honoured throughout all the earth through the return of Christ and the gathering of the saints, who come to battle on Israel’s behalf.

 

[Davidpt]

The Ezekiel 38-39 attack on Israel will take place 7 years before Jesus's return.

The 7 years are in Ezekiel 39:9. Then 7 years later in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast on dead bodies corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

Gog-Magog of Revelation 20:8-9 is that the same nations making up the Ezekiel 38-39 attack on Israel a 1000 years earlier, will try again after the 1000 year millennium is over.

Ezekiel 38 - Gog-Magog attack on Israel
Ezekiel 39 :9- then the 7 years.
Revelation 19 -then Jesus's return
Revelation 20 - then the 1000 year millennium
Revelation 20:8-9 - then Gog-Magog's second attempt, devoured by fire coming down from God out of heaven.

When Christ returns, will or will there not still be mass weapons of war that mankind still possesses? Such as tanks, missiles, bomber jets, nuclear weapons? Where in the NT that you see referring to this 7 years in question, that you see a hint of anyone burning weapons of war for 7 years? Until you can produce those passages first, in the meantime you have zero to support what you allege. Zero.

BTW, another problem you have is this. Burning weapons in Israel 7 years does not solve all of the mass destruction weapons that are available globally. What about those weapons?

Plus, you would have us believe that there are 2 bird feasting events rather than 1. Where one of them is 7 years earlier, the other one is 7 years later. Instead of Scripture interpreting Scripture, let's just pit the OT against the NT like most Amils typically do. Instead of Revelation 19 explaining the feasting birds in Ezekiel 39:20, let's have something else explain it instead. Something the Bible knows nothing about.

 

[Hiddenthings]

When Christ returns, will or will there not still be mass weapons of war that mankind still has? Such as tanks, missiles, bomber jets, nuclear weapons? Where in the NT that you see referring to this 7 years in question, that you see a hint of anyone burning weapons of war for 7 years? Until you can produce those passages first, in the meantime you have zero to support what you allege. Zero.

I'll deal with your first objection.

"They shall take no wood out of the field”

(Ezek 39:10) is clearly figurative language. The prophet is not concerned with primitive weaponry, but with conveying meaning through the symbols familiar to his audience. Ancient wooden weapons stand as representations of the instruments of war in any age. In former times, such weapons could be repurposed as fuel for the people; in the same way, the prophecy teaches that the machinery of war will ultimately be rendered useless and consumed. Nothing will remain for destruction, whatever can be profitably used will be redirected for the benefit of Israel.

This transformation is not merely practical but theological. It signals the complete reversal of Israel’s historical fortunes. As the text declares, “They shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them” (Ezek. 39:10), echoing the promise of restoration found in Isaiah: “I will take the cup of trembling out of thine hand… and I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee” (Isa. 51:22–23). What was once loss becomes gain; what was once oppression becomes dominion.

Scripture consistently points to this outcome. Israel is destined to become the “first dominion” (Mic 4:8), not by exploitation, but by divine appointment. As a result, the wealth of the nations will flow toward Jerusalem: “Then thou shalt see, and flow together… because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee” (Isa. 60:5), and again, “Surely the isles shall wait for me… to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them” (Isa. 60:9). The imagery is unmistakable, global submission to Yahweh’s rule, centered in Zion, following the overthrow of war and the vindication of His people.

 

[Hiddenthings]

BTW, another problem you have is this. Burning weapons in Israel 7 years does not solve all of the mass destruction weapons that are available globally. What about those weapons?

Broaden your gaze.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Plus, you would have us believe that there are 2 bird feasting events rather than 1. Where one of them is 7 years earlier, the other one is 7 years later. Instead of Scripture interpreting Scripture, let's just pit the OT against the NT like most Amils typically do. Instead of Revelation 19 explaining the feasting birds in Ezekiel 39:20, let's have something else explain it instead. Something the Bible knows nothing about.

Was this a misquote?

 

[Douggg]

When Christ returns, will or will there not still be mass weapons of war that mankind still possesses? Such as tanks, missiles, bomber jets, nuclear weapons? Where in the NT that you see referring to this 7 years in question, that you see a hint of anyone burning weapons of war for 7 years? Until you can produce those passages first, in the meantime you have zero to support what you allege. Zero.

The bible does not go into detail about the weapons of the armies that will gather at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus. Since we are living in the end times, we should have a good idea of what modern day weapons of war are.

In Revelation 19:19, it does refer to armies - but not the specific weapons.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Plus, you would have us believe that there are 2 bird feasting events rather than 1. Where one of them is 7 years earlier, the other one is 7 years later. Instead of Scripture interpreting Scripture, let's just pit the OT against the NT like most Amils typically do.

Says the Premil guy who pits Zechariah 14 against NT scripture like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, Thessalonians 1:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Ezekiel 38-39 attack on Israel will take place 7 years before Jesus's return.

The 7 years are in Ezekiel 39:9. Then 7 years later in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast on dead bodies corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

Gog-Magog of Revelation 20:8-9 is that the same nations making up the Ezekiel 38-39 attack on Israel a 1000 years earlier, will try again after the 1000 year millennium is over.

Ezekiel 38 - Gog-Magog attack on Israel
Ezekiel 39 :9- then the 7 years.
Revelation 19 -then Jesus's return
Revelation 20 - then the 1000 year millennium
Revelation 20:8-9 - then Gog-Magog's second attempt, devoured by fire coming down from God out of heaven.

The "nations" referenced in Revelation 20:8-9, which are symbolically represented as "Gog, and Magog", number "as the sand of the sea". Do you think the nations of Ezekiel 38-39 number as the sand of the sea?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

This text is not referring to nations, as in countries, but rather is referring to the heathen. The Greek word erroneously translated as "nations" in Revelation 20:8 is "ethnos" and it can also mean heathen, Gentiles or people in general.

 

[Davidpt]

Was this a misquote?

In regards to @Douggg view it wouldn't be. He does not agree that the feasting birds event in Ezekiel 39 is meaning the feasting birds event in Revelation 19. Therefore, 2 feasting birds events rather than 1. One 7 years earlier, another one 7 years later.

But if they are the same event, and surely they are, thus involve the 2nd coming, only Premil can explain the aftermath that must follow. The aftermath involving 7 months. The aftermath involving 7 years.

@Douggg , OTOH, thinks he has the solution to bail out Amil though he is Premil. Which would mean if @Douggg is correct, Amil can still work since no aftermath involving the 2nd coming is required. Except @Douggg couldn't possibly be correct since there is no passage/s in the NT even remotely hinting that someone is burning weapons for 7 years, in any sense, prior to the 2nd coming. Nor is there a passage in the NT hinting that anyone is cleansing the land for 7 months, 6 years before the 2nd coming.

 

[Davidpt]

What if Chapter 37 is about the second resurrection?

My view of the 2nd resurrection is this. It is the resurrection unto damnation. How can it not be? The text tells us that it is only those that have part in the first resurrection, that the 2nd death has no power over them. The 2nd death is obviously involving the LOF. Right? And nowhere in Revelation 20 does it ever say that the rest of the dead that don't live again until the thousand years expire, that on some of them the 2nd death has no power over, either. Nor does it say some of them are blessed. Therefore, no one in the first resurrection camp can also be included in the 2nd resurrection camp, and vice versa. And that Ezekiel 37 couldn't possibly be referring to anyone that will be cast into the LOF.

 

[Douggg]

The "nations" referenced in Revelation 20:8-9, which are symbolically represented as "Gog, and Magog", number "as the sand of the sea". Do you think the nations of Ezekiel 38-39 number as the sand of the sea?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

This text is not referring to nations, as in countries, but rather is referring to the heathen. The Greek word erroneously translated as "nations" in Revelation 20:8 is "ethnos" and it can also mean heathen, Gentiles or people in general.

Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 38: 5 references what would be considered specific nations.

 

[Douggg]

In regards to @Douggg view it wouldn't be. He does not agree that the feasting birds event in Ezekiel 39 is meaning the feasting birds event in Revelation 19.

I wrote the feast on the dead (by the birds) in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the same feast (by the birds) in Revelation 19:17-18.

The feast (by the birds) on the dead of Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:4 will be 7 years earlier.