Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

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JustMe

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Denominations do not make Christians​

Denominations do not make Christians—only God and His Son do. The Bible teaches that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, confession, and baptism for the remission of sins (Mark 16:15–16; Acts 2:38; Romans 10:8–17). These acts unite a person with Christ and His church, which is described as a single, universal body built by Christ (Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 1:22–23; 4:4).

The Church of Christ is portrayed as the one true church—undivided, not man-made, and rooted in the New Testament pattern. Denominations are viewed as manmade divisions that contradict the unity Jesus prayed for (John 17:20–26) and distort God’s design. They are not biblical because they introduce teachings, practices, or organizational structures not found in Scripture (1 Corinthians 1:10–13; Galatians 1:6–10).

True unity is found not in denominational labels, but in obedience to the gospel and adherence to the same doctrine taught by Christ and the apostles. As the Bible says, “There is one body and one Spirit... one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4:4–5). Therefore, being a Christian is not about belonging to a denomination—it’s about being part of the one church that Christ purchased with His blood (Acts 20:28).

This is what some of the early so-called church fathers have done with their influence and corrupted power, later embedded into the RCC and the Protestant dominations:

(Act 20:29) I know that after my departing, fierce wolves shall enter in among you and will not spare the flock.

(Act 20:30) And from among you, men shall arise speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. (NEV)
 

HealthyShape

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Denominations do not make Christians​

Denominations do not make Christians—only God and His Son do. The Bible teaches that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, confession, and baptism for the remission of sins (Mark 16:15–16; Acts 2:38; Romans 10:8–17). These acts unite a person with Christ and His church, which is described as a single, universal body built by Christ (Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 1:22–23; 4:4).

The Church of Christ is portrayed as the one true church—undivided, not man-made, and rooted in the New Testament pattern. Denominations are viewed as manmade divisions that contradict the unity Jesus prayed for (John 17:20–26) and distort God’s design. They are not biblical because they introduce teachings, practices, or organizational structures not found in Scripture (1 Corinthians 1:10–13; Galatians 1:6–10).

True unity is found not in denominational labels, but in obedience to the gospel and adherence to the same doctrine taught by Christ and the apostles. As the Bible says, “There is one body and one Spirit... one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4:4–5). Therefore, being a Christian is not about belonging to a denomination—it’s about being part of the one church that Christ purchased with His blood (Acts 20:28).

This is what some of the early so-called church fathers have done with their influence and corrupted power, later embedded into the RCC and the Protestant dominations:

(Act 20:29) I know that after my departing, fierce wolves shall enter in among you and will not spare the flock.

(Act 20:30) And from among you, men shall arise speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. (NEV)
Are you a part of any local church are are you a Christian just by yourself?

If you are "just by yourself", then it is not too biblical. Paul was not praising the churches for being divisive, but he never said "you know what, stay just at home and do not meet, it will be better".

And if you are in a local church, then it basically makes your post a bit useless. When we want to attend some assembly, it will be named somehow and it will believe and teach something, I suppose.

But I agree that denominations do not make us Christians, our sincerity and correct beliefs at least about Christ make us Christians.
 
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Wrangler

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Are you a part of any local church are are you a Christian just by yourself?

If you are "just by yourself", then it is not too biblical. Paul was not praising the churches for being divisive, but he never said "you know what, stay just at home and do not meet, it will be better".

And if you are in a local church, then it basically makes your post a bit useless. When we want to attend some assembly, it will be named somehow and it will believe and teach something, I suppose.

But I agree that denominations do not make us Christians, our sincerity and correct beliefs at least about Christ make us Christians.
After several paragraphs and personal attacks, you end with where you should have started, in agreement with a valid point.

I don't think you are fully reconciling the 45,000 denominations with the 10-12 you acknowledge. A bit of white washing there. I never heard it quote expressed that way, correct beliefs. That is beyond what Scripture says is required for salvation. Romans 10:9
So if you believe deep in your heart that God raised Jesus from the pit of death and if you voice your allegiance by confessing the truth that “Jesus is Lord,” then you will be saved!
 

Big Boy Johnson

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Denominations do not make Christians

That's not what the catholics say. In fact, they claim anyone who is not catholic will burn in hell


If you are "just by yourself", then it is not too biblical.

Unless... all the churches in your area teach false doctrine.

In that event the Lord is NOT going to lead someone to go to a false church to sit under false doctrine.

Yes we should not forsake the gathering of ourselves (Hebrews 10:25), but there are circumstances where one cannot go to a church

But, they can fellowship with like minded believers in other ways like directly and not inside a church building


but he never said "you know what, stay just at home and do not meet, it will be better".

There are warnings in the New Testament to depart from those that teach false doctrine.

You should either read the entire New Testament, or learn to accept the entire New Testament

There's very very few churches / preachers now aren't being influenced by the devil to teach false doctrine.

Jesus said in Math 24 that many would come in His Name and would deceive many.

He's talking about churches / preachers claiming to be serving Jesus, claiming to be speaking in behalf of the Lord but are actually deceiving people. Jesus has big problems with this as we can see in how he talked to the pharisees and sadducees who claimed they were speaking in behalf of the Lord but were actually deceiving people
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again GodsGrace,
Hmmm. I think you might have changed the post, or added to it, after I gave you the like.
I'd have to go back and take at look at the picture.
Yes, I added the comment on Psalm 110:1 about 20 minutes after my Post. This forum allows editing at any time, while some forums only allow about 10 minutes.
Could I ask why you're so (I don't want to say obsessed) interested in Psalm 110:1 ?
One thing that one of our Youth Leaders impressed upon us over 60 years ago was the benefit of marking in our Bibles where OT passages were quoted and expounded in the NT. He gave the class a comprehensive List of where Isaiah was quoted in the NT and we were expected to mark these in our Bibles, underlining the words and highlighting the marginal reference if supplied in our Bible centre margin. I still have that List in my Isaiah miscellaneous collection folder beneath my desk. I am not sure if he mentioned or hinted at the need to commit to the same exercise for other OT Books, but I did carry this through in most of the OT especially the Psalms which are often quoted in the NT.

Yes, I am very interested in Psalm 110:1 as it is possibly the most often quoted OT passage in the NT, a passage that explains where Jesus is now after his resurrection, his status and position as the Melchizedek High Priest Psalm 110:5 which is also quoted and expounded in the NT. Psalm 110:1 is a strong foundation of belief in the resurrection and exaltation of Jesus and Jesus and the Apostles quoted and expounded this verse on numerous occasions.

In my opinion it speaks against the Trinity, and this is the basis for my question as to whether the picture depicts Jesus before or after Psalm 110:1 was fulfilled. Perhaps this is my first criticism of the Book, and I would be interested in your response.

In the picture that @Adventageous supplies with the title of his book:
Is this a depiction before or after Psalm 110:1 was fulfilled?

I would also be interested in @Adventageous answer to this question.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Aunty Jane

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That's not what the catholics say. In fact, they claim anyone who is not catholic will burn in hell
I seem to recall that you yourself are inclined to consign people to that place...correct me if I am mistaken about that....
Unless... all the churches in your area teach false doctrine.

In that event the Lord is NOT going to lead someone to go to a false church to sit under false doctrine.
Correct.....
Yes we should not forsake the gathering of ourselves (Hebrews 10:25), but there are circumstances where one cannot go to a church

But, they can fellowship with like minded believers in other ways like directly and not inside a church building
Oh no! Are you advocating the formation of local “cults”? “Fellowship with like minded believers”....that sounds like your definition of a cult to me.
There are warnings in the New Testament to depart from those that teach false doctrine.
You first have to know what these false doctrines are...and how long they have been promoted by the “church” system as gospel truth. How far back do we have to go?
You should either read the entire New Testament, or learn to accept the entire New Testament

There's very very few churches / preachers now aren't being influenced by the devil to teach false doctrine.
Actually Jesus and his apostles taught from the OT, so we need to know God’s word as the whole Bible teaches it....the NT is what Christians must accept, without losing the lessons from the past....all recorded in the OT for our education....and as a warning example.
Jesus said in Math 24 that many would come in His Name and would deceive many.

He's talking about churches / preachers claiming to be serving Jesus, claiming to be speaking in behalf of the Lord but are actually deceiving people. Jesus has big problems with this as we can see in how he talked to the pharisees and sadducees who claimed they were speaking in behalf of the Lord but were actually deceiving people
I couldn’t agree more....but Matt 7:13-14; 21-23 shows us that it is the majority who will be led down the wrong path....so what do the majority of “Christians” hold to be “gospel truth”, that isn’t truth at all?
What do the majority accept as their foundational truth, even if they disagree on the peripheral issues?

“Few” will be found on the right road...because it is a totally different path leading in a completely different direction....the “few” will hold no beliefs in common with that majority....”two roads”....”sheep and goats”.....”wheat and weeds”. There has to be a complete separation....and the genuine Christians will be one united body of believers, (1 Cor 1:10) not a scattered, dismembered body....and they will be a global body who all adhere to one truth....”one Lord, one faith, one baptism”.

There are only two kinds of “religion” in this world ruled by the devil....”true and false”.....do we know the difference? We won’t unless God chooses to enlighten us. (John 6:44; 65) These ones will not be accepted or treated kindly. (John 15:18-21) Just as it was in the first century....those who chose what was accepted “orthodoxy” were the ones who were misled....for hundreds of years.

We won’t have chosen God unless he has chosen us....and the difference will be obvious....like “chalk and cheese”....going in opposite directions. Satan will make the truth look like lies....the majority will believe him.
 
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talons

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Those that do not believe that Jesus is God are totally OUT of the Christian paradigm.
Hey @GodsGrace :waves: . Let me state , yes I believe Jesus is God .
What we do know for certain is the Godhead consists of The Father , The Son of the Father and The Holy Spirit .

I believe there is a revealing of Jesus is God in the bible but what if a Christian does not see this revealed to them in scripture ? If they have taken Jesus Christ as their savior are they any less Christian ?
 

Adventageous

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Greetings again Adventageous,
Hi TrevorHL.

I appreciate your response.
I am glad, and apologize for its brevity, as I am rather ill most of the time, and replying these days takes a tremendous toll on me, physically, mentally, you can see that here - Asking for special serious daily ongoing prayer, having same symptoms still ...

I am not sure if you have examined or understood Strongs' #3068 and 3069.

Yes, I understand "Strong's Concordance", which is mostly used to locate the words in scripture, not truly define them, though it can sometimes be helpful for definition if one is careful with it, to compare those definitions to the actual definitions already given by God (Gen. 40:8 KJB) in scripture (Isa. 8:20; 1 Pet. 4:11 KJB, &c.).

I have in the past quoted these different occurrences of the YHWH Name from Isaiah 50 and I can supply this if you are interested. I would have preferred that you had given a simple answer as to why my explanation is incorrect.

A common explanation given for having the vowels ('e, o, a' (in right to left order of the Hebrew - ADONAI - JewishEncyclopedia.com ), or in reverse, aleph (Psa. 119:1; אֲ) pronounced "ah", daleth (Psa. 119:25; "ō under the Dalet (דֹ)"), pronouned "oh", ai (or ay) for the Qamets under the Nun (Psa. 119:105) and the ending Jod (Psa. 119:73; נָי), pronounced "eye") from 'adonai' ("Lord", "לאדני", Psa. 110:1 HOT, transliterated, "ladoniy") inserted between the consonantal tetragrammaton ("יהוה"; Jod (Psa. 119:73), He (Psa. 119:33), Vau (Psa. 119:41), He (Psa. 119:33)), so that when a devout Talmudic Rabbi would read the Hebrew text, in private or in public, they would not 'take the name of the LORD (JHVH) thy God in vain' (Exo. 20:7) as they thought, that they might accidently misuse the name.

However, inserting the vowels of Adonai into the tetragrammaton would bring about a differing spelling and pronunciation than "JEHOVAH". The true vowels are "“Sheva, Shva (e, eh)”, pronounced "eh", “Cholam (o, oh)”, pronounced "oh", and “Kamatz (a, ah) (qamets)”, pronounced "ah"", so while close to the other, it is not the same. The Talmudic Rabbis wanted to also keep the true spelling / pronunciation of the name of the Elohiym away from the goyim (gentiles), as they (Talmudic Rabbins) still have the mindset that the goyim (gentiles) are unclean animals, and were they (gentiles) to pronounce the true name of the Elohiym, would bring dishonour to the name, and would essentially be taking that name in vain. This is presented in the Talmud, and other Rabbinical materials, as some of those quotations are in the book, in Chapter 2.

Many others, besides myself, have pointed out the historical incongruity of that 'common explanation' - The False Belief That Jehovah Was Pointed with the Vowel Markings of Adonai?

Isaiah 50, the whole chapter in Masoretic Hebrew simply uses the tetragrammaton, "יהוה". In some places in Isaiah 50, the phrase "Lord GOD" (Isa. 50:4,5,7,9; "אדני יהוה" (vss 4,5,9) or "ואדני יהוה" (vs 7), "adonai JHVH", or as some add their vowel markings "יֱהֹוִה", "ádonäy j'hôvih" rather than, "יְהֹוָה", J'hôvãh) is used, but again does not insert the vowels of 'adonai' into the tetragrammton, nor ever indicate that such should be done. The Masoretic Hebrew does not present such vowel markings for either case, but remains essentially consonantal in regards the tetragrammaton.

Since my last Post to you I did determine from another one of your Posts on another thread what is your specific denomination.

Yes, any may freely ask, and I will honestly /earnestly answer; and I have stated on several occasions, as I am not ashamed (Gen. 2:25; Psa. 31:17, 34:5, 119:6,46,80,116; Isa. 45:17, 49:23, 50:7, 54:4; Rom. 1:16, 5:5, 9:33, 10:11; 2 Tim. 1:12, 2:15; 1 Pet. 4:16; 1 Jhn. 2:28 KJB, &c.) of being Seventh-day Adventist.

I had a brief exchange with my Doctor who is of your denomination
Interesting. I assume by "Doctor" you mean a physician of a medical facility / practice, and not a "Doctor" as in merely a Ph.D. of theology? However, correct me if I made an incorrect assumption. Just curious, and you do not have to answer, which medical facility are they with?

on this subject and he affirmed his belief in the Trinity
There are several Seventh-day Adventists who use that term "trinity", but rarely properly define it to avoid the errors of other definitions of the same word, and so I like to avoid its use most of the time, as since there are several definitions to that word (some of which are listed in my book), and the majority definition as carried by the religious of the world have errors in their definition, and so I like to avoid all that baggage and error. If I questioned this "Doctor" on his position more deeply, I would probably find those errors and generic mistakes that many make, since some form of syncretism and false ecumenism, has come in over the years, ever since Q.o.D. (Questions on Doctrine) and 'Glacier View', and the absolute mess with the 'evangelical leaders', and theologians like Walter Martin, &c.

I am not "trinitarian" in the common erroneous definition of that word ("trinity") as it is logically and scripturally incoherent, and I use the words "Godhead", and the phrase "Eternal Heavenly Trio" instead.

but he mentioned that some of your pioneers did not believe the Trinity.

Some 'pioneers', like Uriah Smith (a semi-arian, and remained that way until his death, and his views on the matter are plainly stated in his original printing of the book "Daniel and the Revelation", but have since been scrubbed by editors for its later re-printing, and I know, since I have read the original, and he is not shy about his semi-arian position), and some others, had varying views on Godhead, Father, Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost / Spirit. As for instance, James Springer White (husband of sister Ellen. G. White), originally came from the 'Christian Connexion' brethren, and they too were arian, but James Springer White would later, after becoming a Seventh-day Adventist, renounce all that, and take hold of the view I have in my book and wrote on the subject. Others were more arian than even Uriah Smith. Others were staunchly "trinitarian" after the mainline churches (Roman, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, even Baptist, &c.), and held to those positions, in spite of the greater studies that came about and the increasing light on the subject, which shone the errors of the older positions they had once held. Many, saw the light in the Bible studies that came about and abandoned all their previously held beliefs, especially in this subject, and held to what is in my book. Both arianism and trinitarianism (as commonly defined) are in error, being two sides of the same erroneous coin.

Sister Ellen G. White, originally came from the Methodist faith, and so originally held to that view of "trinity", but as she studied more of her Bible (KJB, the "common version"), after becoming Seventh-day Adventist, and her visions and communications with the LORD (Jesus) and unfallen angels, and along with her husband James Springer White, began to weed out the errors as commonly held by others on "trinity", and eventually solidified into the position I have given in my book, "the eternal heavenly trio". Sister White even made her position clear in her book, The Desire of Ages, and The Great Controversy, which answered to Uriah Smith's errors in the subject. I also show that contrast in the book as well.

Please keep in mind that most of those 'pioneers' came out of various faiths (mostly Christian ones, but not always), and those faiths varied in their tenets, doctrines, dogmas, practices. Some, like Uriah Smith, held to their previous view points on this subject, but most abandoned their past ideologies and took up the truth of the matter in its place, having more clear light than in their past religious experience.

... to be continued ...
 
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Adventageous

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... continued ...
Yes, I appreciate your extensive treatment of this subject
I am glad. Hope it is useful to you in one way or another.

and will now download your book despite my reservations,

It is well researched, and documented, and so please take your time with it. Having "reservations" is all fine and well, and I understand.

especially in the light of your response here,
It is because of my chronic illness, and have been under attack by the devil for the last several years (even trying to kill me), and in these last few months, it has been a physical, mental, spiritual trial like nothing I have ever gone through before.

as I consider what I stated is simple basics.
Yes, I understand the "simple basics", but those "basics" carry some rather dodgey history.

It is late at night here now in Australia,
I know some people in Australia, a sister of a Samoan sister I knew in American Samoa. I also spoke with some LDS through facebook, that had come to that sisters house. I had some good questions for them from their own material and presentation.

and I will not be able to major portion of your book for a day or two
Understood, no worries, please take your time with it. It is a heavy book, that will cover basics, and some deeper materials, so that all may get something from it.

and may find it difficult to find how and where you have disagreed with my statement (page number?)

Chapter 2 is probably your best place to read.

Kind regards
Trevor
Thank you for your kindness and patience with me. I hope to be able to engage more with you, as you require as I am able in the midst of what I am going through.
 

JustMe

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Are you a part of any local church are are you a Christian just by yourself?

If you are "just by yourself", then it is not too biblical. Paul was not praising the churches for being divisive, but he never said "you know what, stay just at home and do not meet, it will be better".

And if you are in a local church, then it basically makes your post a bit useless. When we want to attend some assembly, it will be named somehow and it will believe and teach something, I suppose.

But I agree that denominations do not make us Christians, our sincerity and correct beliefs at least about Christ make us Christians.
I don’t require anyone’s approval to identify as a Christian. I believe because I have placed my faith, given for salvation since my late teens, in Christ—not in the name of any church. I have grown and matured through the fruits of the Spirit given to me. It is no longer just me; it is Christ’s Spirit living within me.

As you are quick to say, "not too biblical," as if you understand this subject well. You don’t gather just to save others or meet with people when you know, through the Spirit within you, that many who claim to be Christians are not genuine. Salvation comes in the quietness and peace of God, who guides one to His Son. You must be saved first and then join with authentic, proven Christians; otherwise, you are wasting your time.

A denominational service is not what I consider meeting and sharing with God’s people who truly love His Son. That, to me, is a waste of time.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again Adventageous,
Yes, I understand "Strong's Concordance", which is mostly used to locate the words in scripture
I have downloaded your book but will not be able to start to read it until this afternoon when I start my PC. I will leave a response to most of these two Posts until I gain a better perspective from your book, even though I was surprised by some of your detail in these two Posts. Yes, most people are familiar with Strongs and its normal use, and brief explanations of the Hebrew and Greek words. I was speaking specifically about S#3068,3069 and you have responded to some extent and I have yet to digest ALL that you have stated.
Interesting. I assume by "Doctor" you mean a physician of a medical facility / practice, and not a "Doctor" as in merely a Ph.D. of theology? However, correct me if I made an incorrect assumption. Just curious, and you do not have to answer, which medical facility are they with?
He is what we call in our country a General Practioner. He is a SDA. He started the subject of the Trinity with me and seemed to be very convinced.
It is because of my chronic illness, and have been under attack by the devil for the last several years (even trying to kill me), and in these last few months, it has been a physical, mental, spiritual trial like nothing I have ever gone through before.
Sorry to hear about your illness I suffered a serious setback two years ago, and spent 6 weeks in hospital, but have reasonably recovered now. More recently the District Nurse "discharged" me yesterday from a series of treatments for a chronic condition which they had been treating twice a week for 7 months.
I know some people in Australia, a sister of a Samoan sister I knew in American Samoa.
I live reasonably close to Cooranbong, a major SDA centre and met a few SDAs at work. I have visited their bookshop and driven past EGW's cottage that has been preserved.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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CTK

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For two thousand years Christians have tried to speak faithfully about the one God who has made Himself known as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Israel was right to guard against any thought of multiple gods, for there is only one true God—the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Yet from the very beginning, that one God has chosen to reveal Himself in three distinct ways. This is not a Christian invention. It is the story Scripture itself tells: before Sinai, at Sinai, and after Sinai with the coming of the Messiah.

Before Sinai: Three Revelations Already Given

Long before Moses stood on the mountain, God was already making Himself known in three inseparable ways.

The Father, unseen.

The God of Abraham called His people out of idolatry, demanding their undivided allegiance (Gen 12:1–3; Exod 12:12). He revealed Himself as El Shaddai—God Almighty (Gen 17:1). Yet He warned, “You cannot see My face, for man shall not see Me and live” (Exod 33:20). The Father is the unseen source of all, the one true God who alone is worthy of worship.​

The Spirit, drawing near.

From the beginning, God’s Spirit was active: hovering over the waters at creation (Gen 1:2), breathing life into Adam (Gen 2:7), filling Joseph with wisdom (Gen 41:38), leading Israel as a pillar of cloud and fire (Exod 13:21–22). Moses’ first encounter at the burning bush was a voice from fire, not an image (Exod 3:2–6). Israel later heard, “You heard a voice but saw no form” (Deut 4:12). The Spirit was God’s chosen way of being present with His people, without image or idol.​

The Son, foreshadowed in visible form.
Even before the incarnation, God sometimes appeared in human likeness, pointing ahead to Christ, the true Image of God.
The Angel of the LORD spoke with God’s own authority, and Hagar declared, “You are the God who sees me” (Gen 16:13; cf. Exod 3:2–6).​
At the oaks of Mamre, Abraham lifted his eyes and saw three men standing before him; yet the narrative says, “the LORD appeared to him” and Abraham spoke with one of them as with God Himself (Gen 18:1–2, 22–33).​
Jacob wrestled with a “man” and said, “I have seen God face to face” (Gen 32:30).​

These were not idols fashioned by human hands, but living revelations given by God Himself—anticipations of the day when His Son would come as the perfect Image, showing the Father fully (John 14:9).

At Sinai: The Pattern Inscribed in the Commandments

When God gave His commandments, He could have given Moses one long sentence: “Worship Me alone, make no images, do not take My Name in vain.” Instead, He divided them into three separate words (Exod 20:3–7). Why? Because He was revealing the same three ways He had already drawn near, and would draw near again.

First Word — Who we worship (the Father).

“You shall have no other gods before Me” (Exod 20:3). The Father claims undivided loyalty: “Hear, O Israel, the LORD is one” (Deut 6:4–5). He is the God and Father of His people (Deut 32:6; Isa 63:16).​

Second Word — How we approach (the Spirit).

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image” (Exod 20:4). Israel heard a voice but saw no form (Deut 4:12). God comes near on His own terms—by His Spirit who fills, guides, convicts, and indwells. The command protects His chosen way of presence from our attempts to control Him with man-made substitutes.​

Third Word — How we bear His Name (the Son).

“You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain” (Exod 20:7). At Sinai God was already preparing His people for the true Image who bears His Name.​

He promised His Messenger with “My Name in him” (Exod 23:20–21), and then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy elders saw the God of Israel and ate and drank in His presence (Exod 24:9–11)—as Christians understand as the pre-incarnate Son, the visible One who can be seen without destroying the beholder. The prophets deepen this: a child called Mighty God (Isa 9:6) and the Son of Man given everlasting dominion (Dan 7:13–14). The command teaches God’s people to carry His Name truthfully, not emptily—fulfilled perfectly in the Son who bears the Father’s Name and manifests it to us (John 17:6), and who by His Spirit forms us into His image so we bear that Name with integrity.

After Sinai: The Messiah and the Full Revelation

In the fullness of time, the same three ways became complete in Christ and His sending of the Spirit.

The Father sent His Son, and Jesus taught us to pray, “Our Father in heaven” (Matt 6:9). The one true God was revealed as Father of all who believe.​

The Son came as the perfect Image: “Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). In Him the invisible God became visible without destroying us, because He came in human flesh to redeem.​

The Spirit was poured out to indwell believers (Acts 2:1–4), convict of sin, guide into truth, and seal God’s people as His own (John 16:13–14; Eph 1:13–14).​

Thus the pattern was not broken but fulfilled: the same God who revealed Himself before Sinai, and inscribed His revelation at Sinai, now reveals Himself fully in Christ and the Spirit poured out.

The Wisdom of Order

The sequence of the first three commandments is deliberate.

At Sinai (before the Messiah):

Allegiance to the Father (first).​
Nearness by the Spirit, not images (second).​

Bearing the Name, foreshadowing the Son (third).​

Here the Spirit’s place before the visible Image guarded Israel against filling the gap with idols. God withheld the true Image until the appointed time.

In the Messiah (at the time of the cross):

The Father still claims allegiance.​
The Son now comes first in visible glory, showing us the Father perfectly.​
Only then does the Spirit indwell believers, empowering them to bear the Name.​

The shift is purposeful: once Christ came, the danger of counterfeit images was ended, because the true Image was now revealed. Idolatry is silenced by fulfillment, not just prohibition.

One God, Not Three

This is not a new invention, nor a plurality of gods. From Eden onward, the one true God has revealed Himself in three personal ways:

The Father, who cannot be seen directly.​
The Spirit, who draws near without form.​
The Son, who shows us the Father perfectly.​

The first three commandments were never meant to be just the first three “thou shalt nots.” They are God’s own explanation of how He would draw near to us, reveal His true Image, and make us bearers of His Name. And so, whether Jew or Gentile, we are not asked to invent clever illustrations of the Trinity or to reduce the mystery of God into a triangle, a chord, or three candles burning as one. Nor are we asked to solve the puzzle of “three Gods in one.” God Himself has already given us His definition—clear, sufficient, and living—in His first three commandments. They are not arbitrary prohibitions, but revelations of how the one true God draws near: the Father who claims us, the Spirit who indwells us, and the Son who shows us the Father perfectly. Look no further. In these three words, God has already told us who He is and how He will be known.
 
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HealthyShape

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I don’t require anyone’s approval to identify as a Christian. I believe because I have placed my faith, given for salvation since my late teens, in Christ—not in the name of any church. I have grown and matured through the fruits of the Spirit given to me. It is no longer just me; it is Christ’s Spirit living within me.

As you are quick to say, "not too biblical," as if you understand this subject well. You don’t gather just to save others or meet with people when you know, through the Spirit within you, that many who claim to be Christians are not genuine. Salvation comes in the quietness and peace of God, who guides one to His Son. You must be saved first and then join with authentic, proven Christians; otherwise, you are wasting your time.

A denominational service is not what I consider meeting and sharing with God’s people who truly love His Son. That, to me, is a waste of time.
That was not my question. My question was: "Are you a part of any local church or are you a Christian just by yourself?"

I was not even talking about salvation. So, this answer is missing the target completely. You criticized denominations, but you offered no solution. If you isolated yourself, you created your own "division", how is it better than to be a part of a broader denomination?
 
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HealthyShape

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After several paragraphs and personal attacks, you end with where you should have started, in agreement with a valid point.

I don't think you are fully reconciling the 45,000 denominations with the 10-12 you acknowledge. A bit of white washing there. I never heard it quote expressed that way, correct beliefs. That is beyond what Scripture says is required for salvation. Romans 10:9
So if you believe deep in your heart that God raised Jesus from the pit of death and if you voice your allegiance by confessing the truth that “Jesus is Lord,” then you will be saved!
I notice again and again that you use wrong words (like "personal attacks", misidentify "logical fallacies") and generally do not understand my posts, and I am already a bit tired with always needing to correct your misunderstandings. So, think whatever you want.
 
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HealthyShape

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Sister Ellen G. White... originally held to that view of "trinity", but after...her visions and communications with the LORD (Jesus) and unfallen angels...solidified into the position...
Are you saying White rejected the orthodox teaching of Trinity and so also at least the original Seventh Day Adventists?

My experience with the SDA members is that they use similar wording as orthodox Christians, but I frequently have a feeling they do not believe the same way. It is like their words have somehow shifted meanings into something else.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again Adventageous,
It is well researched, and documented, and so please take your time with it. Having "reservations" is all fine and well, and I understand.
I have now had a quick read/browse of Chapters 1 and 2. There is far too much detail for me to respond to and even understand. I most probably have a different view of Elohim, and part of this is the fact that I include the Angels in Genesis 1:26.

Also I am content with my understanding of the Yahweh Name, and your book may contain a discussion of the translation of Exodus 3:14, but I accept "I will be" as the correct translation.

Also you have not answered my question:
In the picture that @Adventageous supplies with the title of his book:
Is this a depiction before or after Psalm 110:1 was fulfilled?

A few other question relating to the cover picture:
We know that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus in the form of a dove. In heaven, is the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove hovering above the Throne? Is the Holy Spirit a Person?

What do the symbols on the centre of the chest of the Father and the Son represent? Why is the symbol on the Son larger and brighter than that of the Father?

Is the Father significantly older than the Son?

Is the Throne depicted the Father’s Throne, or the Throne of two Persons of the Trinity? Please consider Revelation 3:20.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

HealthyShape

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Unless... all the churches in your area teach false doctrine.
If somebody lives in a small town where there is only some Jehovah Witnesses organization or maybe only the Roman Catholic church, it is one thing.

If somebody lives somewhere where there are Lutherans, Calvinists, evangelicals, baptists and others and still stays isolated because "denominations are bad" and "I know everything the best", it is another thing. A local church is not only about the most perfect doctrine.
 
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GodsGrace

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Hey @GodsGrace :waves: . Let me state , yes I believe Jesus is God .
What we do know for certain is the Godhead consists of The Father , The Son of the Father and The Holy Spirit .

I believe there is a revealing of Jesus is God in the bible but what if a Christian does not see this revealed to them in scripture ? If they have taken Jesus Christ as their savior are they any less Christian ?
Hi talon...
I've removed myself from this thread and I'm only responding because it's you.

Jesus is God.
Of course.
That's what the Christian religion teaches.

It's not easy to see the Trinity in the NT although it IS there.
Several times the NT writers refer to Jesus as GOD.
Titus 2:13
John 20:28

It is my firm belief that orthodox/mainline churches teach that Jesus is God.
If a person does not accept this...he cannot be defined as Christian.

He might be saved - that's not for us to know.
But he most certainly cannot call himself a Christian.
JWs think they're Christian.
Do you?

There are members on this thread that are fighting tooth and nail to prove
that Jesus is NOT God.
They think they're Christian.
Do you?

What does CHRISTIAN mean anyway?
Which is what this thread is about.

It's not about salvation.
It's not about the Christian faith.

It's about the Christian RELIGION.
Have its tenets already been established 2 thousand years ago
or are we going to change what those tenets are?

I do want to say that there are members on here that understand this and agree.

The point being that the tenets that define the Christian Religion cannot be changed.

And I'll be replying only to you so no need for others to post to me.
 

Wrangler

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I notice again and again that you use wrong words (like "personal attacks", misidentify "logical fallacies")
No, I'm using the right words the right way, properly identifying personal attacks and the many logical fallacies invoked by those who believe in 3-is-1-ism.

Trouble is, sometimes expressions invoke multiple fallacies in one sentence. So, it's hard to keep up. Your trouble is not in identifying by name the illogic of your position; your trouble is denying the flawed reasoning in your arguments. (Perhaps this is because you've been so brainwashed with them that you don't think of them as anything but perfectly logical. When my friend's teenage daughter would emote irrationally, he'd ask:
You're going down the road 50 mph.
Your left front wheel falls off.
How many pancakes does it take to build a doghouse?
 

HealthyShape

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No, I'm using the right words the right way, properly identifying personal attacks and the many logical fallacies invoked by those who believe in 3-is-1-ism.

Trouble is, sometimes expressions invoke multiple fallacies in one sentence. So, it's hard to keep up. Your trouble is not in identifying by name the illogic of your position; your trouble is denying the flawed reasoning in your arguments. (Perhaps this is because you've been so brainwashed with them that you don't think of them as anything but perfectly logical. When my friend's teenage daughter would emote irrationally, he'd ask:
You're going down the road 50 mph.
Your left front wheel falls off.
How many pancakes does it take to build a doghouse?
In your opinion. In my opinion, plenty of your posts are off and not really worthy to dig into or worthy of a conversation.
 
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