The End of the Age of Transgression, Then Came the Two Witnesses.
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soberxp
Well-Known Member
I emphasize the fact that we as born again Christians must acknowledge (come to terms with) the truth that John the Baptist and Jesus are the two witnesses spoken of in Rev. 11:3-4 of which is the fulfillment of the prophecy of "the two anointed ones" in Zech. 4:11-14.
Now, let's compare those two Bible references and let us discover the similarities between them:
KJV Zech. 4:11-14
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden OIL out of themselves?
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.
KJV Rev. 11:3-4
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and THEY shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore [1260] days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Do YOU ALL understand now?
The Two Witnesses are a PAST event of 2000+/- years ago!!
Now, let's compare those two Bible references and let us discover the similarities between them:
KJV Zech. 4:11-14
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden OIL out of themselves?
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.
KJV Rev. 11:3-4
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and THEY shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore [1260] days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Do YOU ALL understand now?
The Two Witnesses are a PAST event of 2000+/- years ago!!
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@Earburner
I agree with most of your post, I did I run across something that I would like your opinion on.
In Daniel 9:24 the word “finish” (finish the transgression) is <3607> kala. According to Biblehub lexical summary it can mean To restrain, to withhold, to shut up, to keep back. I have seen where some people say the transgression is referring to Satan and “finish” is referring to his binding, a temporary situation. It can also be seen in YLT that sin is sealed up, just like Satan has a seal upon him in Revelation 20:3.
Do you think this is a possibility or can it be refuted?
Daniel 9:24(YLT) 'Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.
I agree with most of your post, I did I run across something that I would like your opinion on.
In Daniel 9:24 the word “finish” (finish the transgression) is <3607> kala. According to Biblehub lexical summary it can mean To restrain, to withhold, to shut up, to keep back. I have seen where some people say the transgression is referring to Satan and “finish” is referring to his binding, a temporary situation. It can also be seen in YLT that sin is sealed up, just like Satan has a seal upon him in Revelation 20:3.
Do you think this is a possibility or can it be refuted?
Daniel 9:24(YLT) 'Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.
Your grasp of this topic is very good. Yes, I percieve that what you are saying about the words finish, restraining or withold is relative and true.
I also do see it as being the restraint or binding put on satan. Ever since Jesus death and resurrection, Satan has been permanently cast out (restrained/bound) from Heaven, and no longer has access to the Light of God's Presence and knowledge. Nor can he re-enter anything or anyone who is of Heaven, such as born again Christians.
The words "bottomless pit" is in reference to satan's endless death/grave, meaning that it is right here on this planet earth. Having no Light from God at all, he is now dwelling in "chains of darkness".
@grafted branch
Thank you for your reply and depth of discernment and understanding!!
Please see my post #45 in the following thread:
www.christianityboard.com
Thank you for your reply and depth of discernment and understanding!!
Please see my post #45 in the following thread:
When Might Satan With His Angels Come to This Earth For the Tribulation?
Satan is still NOT BOUND in his pit prison yet today. And that prison is IN THE HEAVENLY dimension, by the way. The 70 A.D. theory happened because the Church back then saw God's destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman army, and thought that was a sign that Christ's Kingdom had...
www.christianityboard.com
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
If scripture was cut off where you stopped, you could interpret it that way. But there is more to the passage.
"And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; and so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie on the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 Those from the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not allow their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who live on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who live on the earth.
11 And after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them." Rev. 11:5-12
John's nor Jesus' ministries or death resembled these two witnesses. The events in this scenario are future!
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I have thought that the bottomless pit could be on the earth.@grafted branch
Thank you for your reply and depth of discernment and understanding!!
Please see my post #45 in the following thread:
When Might Satan With His Angels Come to This Earth For the Tribulation?
Satan is still NOT BOUND in his pit prison yet today. And that prison is IN THE HEAVENLY dimension, by the way. The 70 A.D. theory happened because the Church back then saw God's destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman army, and thought that was a sign that Christ's Kingdom had...
Psalm 106:9 He rebuked the Red sea also, and it was dried up: so he led them through the depths <8415> tehom (deep, abyss, depths, primeval ocean), as through the wilderness.
Here in this verse Israel is led through the abyss, which I think could be associated with as the bottomless pit and wilderness. So we are in the world but not of the world.
I’ve also been looking at the beast that rises up out of the sea in Revelation 13:1, I think this could also possibly be the beast rising up out of the bottomless pit.
Yes, the bottomless PIT is nothing more than this planet earth. the very place of satan's endless grave/death.
The sea is symbolic of multitudes of people, among whom satan is now forced to dwell with.
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Unfortunately, I perceive that you hold to a religious understanding, that has been promoted by church-ianity.
Please remember, the joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus were the only ones ever physically born with the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (anointed from within). Prior to them, no one else was.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
You did not address the context of the whole passage. Sorry, the two witnesses described in Rev. 11 are not John the Baptist and Jesus IMHO.Unfortunately, I perceive that you hold to a religious understanding, that has been promoted by church-ianity.
Please remember, the joint ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus were the only ones ever physically born with the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (anointed from within). Prior to them, no one else was.
Please see my post #45 in the following thread:
When Might Satan With His Angels Come to This Earth For the Tribulation?
Satan is still NOT BOUND in his pit prison yet today. And that prison is IN THE HEAVENLY dimension, by the way. The 70 A.D. theory happened because the Church back then saw God's destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman army, and thought that was a sign that Christ's Kingdom had...
If you think we are just conforming to Churchianity, no, because there are many views of the Book of Revelation, uncertain prophesies unsolved yet. It's a mysterious book. I've read far fetched symbolism presented by Preterists too. I'm more of a literalist - symbolism is usually explained. But Rev. 11 I take literally, with some symbolism. Obviously they are not literally olive trees or lampstands, that is symbolism. The measuring of the temple of God, altar and those who worship is a precise measurement of the remnant Jews (1/3), who are called Israel in Romans 11, whom the two witnesses will preach to and the Lord will convert During the Great Tribulation period- coming soon.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
It is a good study!
However, Jesus being "the First and the Last", reveals Him as -1- witness overall...all "among those born of women"--of which Jesus was also.
But what did He come preaching? --"The kingdom of heaven is at hand" and "The kingdom of heaven is like...", saying, "God [in heaven] is spirit", and "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." After which He also said, "I am going away [ to the Father], and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come"..."but you shall follow Me afterward”--which was to say "after you are born of the Spirit, having died to sin." Which began to come among men at Pentecost--after which came the witness of God in spirit--that being the second witness: However, "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual." Two witnesses--One in Christ--One in the flesh, and One in the spirit.
However, Jesus being "the First and the Last", reveals Him as -1- witness overall...all "among those born of women"--of which Jesus was also.
But what did He come preaching? --"The kingdom of heaven is at hand" and "The kingdom of heaven is like...", saying, "God [in heaven] is spirit", and "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." After which He also said, "I am going away [ to the Father], and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come"..."but you shall follow Me afterward”--which was to say "after you are born of the Spirit, having died to sin." Which began to come among men at Pentecost--after which came the witness of God in spirit--that being the second witness: However, "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual." Two witnesses--One in Christ--One in the flesh, and One in the spirit.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
By representation, yes: John representing all born of women/flesh, and Jesus the firstfruits of all born of the Spirit. Two witnesses.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
This too is true, for all are in Christ--who was even before the foundation of the world. Even so, we even of these times still give witness--in the flesh, and in the spirit--if we are born of both.
"Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony" (Revelation 12:10-11).
Well of course I addressed the context surrounding the 2 Witnesses. I have studied and unstudied the situation about the 2W for many years. It is as equal to any other prophetic scripture written in the midst of its context.
For example, let's look at Micah 5:1-6, and let the context support and describe the scripture in focus verse #2.
Micah 5
[1] Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
[2] But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
[3] Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
[4] And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
[5] And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
[6] And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
Please describe how the literal verses #1, 3-6 support and describe the scripture in focus, verse #2.
Do you find that verse #2 can stand alone, and that the verses in context lend very little for support to the simple truth of verse #2?
The same applies to Zech. 4:11-14 and Rev. 11:3-13.
In my post #3 I did exactly that. I revealed the simple truth that we are to know from Zech. 4:11-14 and Rev. 11:3-4.
Now, can you discern the following words by the Holy Spirit within you?
......Not by might, nor by power, BUT [rather] by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
That was quoted from Zech. 4:6
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I agree! I am not ignoring the born again spiritual church as a witness also.
However, because of the prophecy of the two literal anointed witnesses in Zech. 4;14 we FIRST must establish who exactly THEY were as a joint ministry totalling to 1260 literal days. John testified for 6 mos. and Jesus testified for 3.0 years.
Only John the Baptist and Jesus were physically born HAVING the Holy Spirit within them already.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
While, yes, Jesus was a man of flesh and blood born of a woman, I would look further into Zechariah 4:14, specifically, "stand by":
Then said he, H559 These H428 are the H3323➔ two H8147 anointed ➔H3323 ones, H1121 that stand H5975 by H5921 the Lord H113 of the whole H3605 earth. H776
Even so, Jesus, a man qualifies to be both a "witness" (one of "two") in the flesh, and also in the Spirit as "the Lord of a the whole earth."
But I see that Jesus has grouped the "two" as one being born of women, and the other born of the spirit of God--as every witness, each as if one man, one being flesh and one being Spirit.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
In Micah 5:2, he is prophesying where Jesus, the Messiah and coming King will be born, ( a very important proohecy), but also His Millennial.Kingdom. Jesus Second Coming in Judgment and conquest in a much later time, during the Great Tribulation and Millennial Kingdom is the whole context talked about in Micah 4. Micah 5:1, 3-6 are part of the whole context.
>>We don't just extract one verse and think that is sufficient.
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KJV Micah 5:1, 3-8 speaks nothing about a fictional, far off, future Millennial kingdom on earth.
However, it does reveal Jesus' First appearance and the past 2000+/- years, describing a remnant of literal Israel being among the Gentiles and them repenting/turning towards Christ.
But, as for the majority of literal Israel (the unrepentant) they will be like (ferocious) young lions (aka "the synagogue of satan") among the sheep, aka Christ's church.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I said the context must include Micah 4 which flows into the next chapter where it briefly mentions his birth and mission.
Even AI has more discernment than you:
Micah 4 provides a message of future hope, promising the restoration of Zion (Jerusalem) as the center of worldwide worship, peace, and divine justice under the Messiah's reign. Contrasting with previous prophecies of doom, it envisions nations flocking to God's mountain to learn His ways, resulting in disarmament ("swords into plowshares") and security.
Key Themes and Interpretations of Micah 4:
- Future Exaltation of Zion (vv. 1-2): The Lord's temple will be established as the highest mountain, representing the ultimate triumph of God's kingdom over worldly powers.
- Universal Peace and Justice (vv. 3-5): The Messiah will rule, causing nations to stop training for war and live in peace, sitting under their own vine and fig tree, which symbolizes prosperity and security.
- The Remnant and Restoration (vv. 6-8): God promises to gather the "lame" and afflicted remnant of Israel, transforming them into a strong nation, with Jerusalem regaining its former dominion.
- Deliverance from Babylon (vv. 9-10): While predicting the exile to Babylon, the prophecy promises that the Lord will rescue His people from there.
- Victory Over Enemies (vv. 11-13): Zion is encouraged to "thresh" (overcome) the nations gathered against her, consecrating their wealth to the Lord of the whole earth.
Key Takeaways:
- Messianic Age: Many commentators see this chapter as a direct prophecy of the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ, when perfect peace and justice will prevail on earth.
- Present Application: While fully realized in the future, believers are encouraged to walk in the name of the Lord today, experiencing the peace of His kingdom
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